No EV should be loosing large amounts of charge over a period of weeks unless something is wrong or has been left on. To run the computer and other basic systems (including 12v), as @jon0844 says, it should be measured in watts not kilowatts. The exception might be if the heating routine is left on; my car is set to pre-heat/pre-cool every morning and if I were to accidentally leave this on while the car is not in regular use it would obviously drain the battery over a period of time.
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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Another exception being Tesla's Sentry* mode, which can use 7%+ per day, but I think it turns off when the battery gets down to 20%.
*Sentry Mode being the security system that monitors and records the cameras and can live-stream the feed to a mobile phone.
No. The traction battery is massive compared to the power needed to run the alarm and lock systems.
Left out Niro for 2 weeks and it lost 1% charge. Ove left my Tesla for over a week and the battery has been at the exact same %.
Obviously if you run things like sentry mode it will use some power, as will constantly using the app to check on the car. So don't do that.
When the car is parked and left unused , there are loads on the battery, vehicle alarms , door entry system etc, they are small parasitic loads with modest drain on the 12V battery, the poster may have expressed his concern with, not the discharge of the 12v battery, but the rate of self-discharge of the main traction battery, there will be a self-discharge of the traction battery , those electrons will find their way home somehow, either by useful work, the vehicle is mobile and via the traction motor, or when the vehicle is unused and the electrons simply wriggle around the chemistry of the battery, "self discharge".
Not in the quantities of loosing kWh over a period of less than a week (as the OP was asking). Some watt hours-absolutely. Some kilowatt hours, not if everything is working correctly and unnecessary loads turned off.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The rack of Duracells at Tesco aren't running stuff like car alarms. The same range loss will occur to an ICE (extra fuel is burnt to recharge the 12V battery) but when your range is 550 miles or thereabouts a couple of miles lost don't matter.
The more EV ranges get towards ICE ones the less of an issue this is.
And neither is the traction battery in most EVs!
(That’s why I said “without load”)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is, because when you start the car up the 12V battery is recharged from the traction battery. Or on some cars this happens continuously. It can't come from anywhere else!
When it is started, yes, but not immediately recharged in full, and the OP was asking about overall loss in range. As others have said, it is negligible.
cactustwirly
Established Member
It's not just being poor, you need to be earning well above the average salary to afford such cars. Unless you have no mortgage or rent and live with your parents. Particularly with house prices in the South East
I would say I'm in a comfortable financial situation, definitely not poor, but owning a car less than 5 years old seems like it will be years before it's affordable. My newest car was 8 years old!
Personally owning an EV seems like years away before it becomes a viable option.
My area is normal suburban, not super affluent like parts of Oxfordshire, Ascot, Windsor etc but hardly deprived either. I have one of the newest cars on the street, most are 10-12 years old like 12-15 plates mostly
I looked at PCP, but the interest rates are so high that after my mortgage and bills I'd be in a precarious financial position with little room to save. £300 a month for a car is a lot of money
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would agree. As with an ICE which uses petrol or diesel to recharge the 12V battery it is a very small (but nonzero) amount. It will however come out of the traction battery as it can't come from anywhere else.
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Depends what you mean by afford. Most people aren't buying them outright, they are leasing or PCPing them which gives a much lower monthly payment.
They aren't bangernomics money, but round here in this very average area of West Bletchley there's a newish car on pretty much every drive.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I looked at PCP, it's 10% interest and basically £300 a month which was too much to afford after I've paid my mortgage and bills
Literally living paycheck to paycheck more or less
You are describing life choices. Plenty of people in regular ‘average salary’* jobs, in small houses / flats, but with very recent BMWs, Teslas, Audis, etc on the street out front. As has been explained several times in this thread before, there are lots of lease deals out there for sub £300 / month for EVs. A brand new Renault 5 can be had for less than £250 a month - the price of 2 Lattes a day. Very affordable, especially with cheap ’fuel’.
Personally I’ve usually been in the bigger house, older car camp, although did buy ex demo 20 years ago (and still using the depreciated capital off that purchase for the car I am about to buy, albeit I have been very fortunate in my car choices and depreciaton)
*Median full time salary is in the region of £38k now.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
£300pm is a very typical monthly car payment. You may not be able to afford that but most families can and do.
If as your post implies you live alone (I do too) things tend to be rather tighter than two incomes. Even if that is two low ish incomes as that means two tax free allowances rather than one.
Whether or not an EV battery will run flat when you leave it, I can highly recommend having a battery pack which can jump start a car. They cost from £25 at Amazon. I've had a Gooloo brand one for a few years. Its more compact than jump leads, and you don't need to find another car to start the dead car. I have used it a number of times to jump start cars:
- A couple of times when when my car's battery was getting old.
- Once was when my daughter left her car's lights on.
- Another time for a stranger in a car park.
You could look at something like leaseloco to seek out some of the many bargains - both ICE and EV. Shop the deal, not the car. Yes, you'll need a deposit (or a higher monthly payment) but a new car can offer peace of mind compared to running an older car that's fine until it isn't - and a high bill means you're without transport, and a potentially huge cost for work.
With an EV, the risk for an older car appears to be a lot lower from most reports/reviews of older cars - given there's a lot less to go wrong AND you can more easily check the status of a car to avoid hidden surprises that come with buying second, third, fourth hand etc.
It's not really possible to do the maths here, and there's nothing wrong with keeping an old car running (in fact, it's better than scrapping it), especially when a 10 year old car is still going to be pretty modern in terms of safety features, specification and economy - although you do have to compare the cost of fuel vs electricity and lump everything together to see what the total cost is over a year. VED, servicing, insurance, and fuel/charging all need to be calculated.
I think the key is being flexible. If you want a specific car, your choices are going to be limited - especially for financing. There are always amazing deals to be had, but you may need to widen your choice of cars.
If not right now, certainly soon, I would expect more EVs to be available to lease for around the £200 mark. If you could arrange to charge at home, you could be saving £50-100 a month just on not buying petrol over charging at home for 6.5p or 7p per kWh (charging the car costing between £2-4 depending on battery size).
You aren't doing this to impress the neighbours - there are advantages of having a car still in warranty. With some cars having 7 or 8 year warranties, you could even seek to lease for longer and lock in a good price for a longer period.
I am pretty well o0ff with no mortgage. a good pension and the price of several new EVs in the bank.
But I am dammed if I will spend money a recent EV when a 10+ year old ICE will meet my modest needs.
Spending tens of thousands of pounds to save a few hundred a year on running costs does not make sense to me.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It won't be long until you can buy a 10+ year old EV for a good price, and it'll have a far lower chance of going wrong than an ICE.
Bangernomics (buying 10+ year old cars and running them into the ground) doesn't apply to EVs at the moment (unless you want a milk float) but it will in due course!
I realise someone upthread disputed 10+ years old being a banger, but I think it depends on the vehicle. High value vehicles like Range Rovers tend to be kept well maintained for longer than your common or garden Astra or Focus.
Just for the record I would bet that a considerable number of the people who earn £38k and upwards are concentrated in the south/south-east while the opposite is true up north. And yet cars hardly vary at all regionally (and neither should they).
And while I'm late to this particular party I can say that as I enter my seventh decade I can't envisage ever even leasing a car again as I was one of those Covid retirees who are consistently demonised, despite desperately trying to get back into the workforce. Quite simply I wouldn't pass a credit check as I live off my private pension (we're comfortable enough, but try telling finance companies that).
All this would be so much of a sob story were it not for the fact that while we could no doubt manage to recycle our ICE cars, and once our families have passed on we can reduce to one car, there will be fewer and fewer spares, qualified mechanics etc for our Fiestas, which have of course been scrapped as a model anyway.
It's easy to think of all those people who are 'doing nicely' but many aren't, especially away from the south east. On our street there are a few 74 reg cars, but I know that three of them are 'funded' by employer schemes. They would be able to afford it in their absence.
Siimo
Member
Plus the fact that it has been mandated by law that auto companies have to sell a certain percentage of low emission vehicles (I'm not sure if hybrids still count). The fines for non-compliance are worse than selling an EV at a loss. Besides, they make some money back on the ridiculous servicing costs (mine came with 2 years free servicing thrown in though!). Other than having a technician qualified to go poking around HV cables I see no reason why I had to fork out the same as ICE prices on the Zoe to literally just top up the coolant, change the pollen filter, check brake and tyre wear and plug a laptop into the data port.
johncrossley
Established Member
Can't you get servicing done at your favourite independent garage just like with ICE cars?
Yes. I think it's implied that you need to go to a main dealer to keep the warranty but I'm certain the law says you can go anywhere (within reason - for example using authorised parts).
I guess a lot of people don't want to take the risk as car makers can make life difficult unless you're willing to hold them to account when it comes to some claims.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's illegal to require main dealer servicing to maintain warranties on cars in the UK (it is seen as breaching competition law), however the servicing does need to be to the specification, and there are relatively few back street garages that know EVs and would do that sort of thing correctly per the book.
That will come in the fullness of time, though, and the servicing is pretty minimal anyway.
This is true, I think. It is also true that the biggest expense in most adults lives - housing costs - are considerably higher in the South/South East, on average than ‘up north’.
The house next door to my first house, but extended and in much better condition, in a reasonable part of the West Mids, has just sold for £280k. Similar size house in a less salubrious part of St Albans (there are some!) will be well over double that. In nicer parts, getting on for 4x. In broad and simple terms, the higher earnings just go to housing costs. Hence why the mix of cars can be similar around the country.
Yes, I did think of that, but my thought was that many people fix, and mortgages are still only a proportion of expenditure. Your house is an appreciating asset, but your car isn't (usually). You can even release equity if you want. Certainly many can.
When I finished work after Covid only four employees in my office earned over £30,000, and most were nearer £20,000. They don't own a home and can't even afford a new car by way of compensation.
Fo non-homeowners, the difference is even more balanced, i.e. rental prices in the south east are astronomic compared with up north, - and there's no appreciating asset (apart from the landlord's). So with lower than average salaries, the everlasting cost of housing affects the employee for life, so occupational pensions need to maintain rents in retirement. Thus the cars for each equivalent group in the local housing ladder aren't as different as the headline pay might suggest.
The "service" on our Kia Niro consisted of checking the tyre tread depths and visually checking the coolant level (which you can do anyway, you just aren't allowed to to it up yourself) but not actually topping it up. Two hundred and something quid.
Tesla do it right. There is no service schedule. I bought my Model 3 used at 21,000 miles. It's now approaching 90,000 miles and the only servicing I've done is:
4 tyres (will be 6 from tomorrow).
Front upper suspension control arms replaced £120.
Cabin air filter replacement - £25 and DIY fit.
Wiper blades £30 and DIY fit.
Rear drive unit replaced under warranty (bearing failure, didn't actually break down but was getting noisy).
Charge port wiring harness replaced under warranty (again, didn't actually stop working, car alerted me to a potential problem with it and it was remotely diagnosed after reporting in the app).
Errr. That's it! The brake fluid gets checked at MOT and hasn't needed replacement yet.
There are lots of things I do t like about the Tesla, but the servicing is ace.