UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[DerekC]

It’s not just inner city exceptions though. Go to the Cotswolds and the pretty and expensive cottages in places like Bourton, Painswick and Bibury don’t have any parking (infamously in the latters case). The council houses in these places do.

There are vast out of town council estates built in the post-war period on the edges of our cities which almost universally have driveways (or gardens with space for driveways). I was in Lawrence Weston in Bristol a few weeks ago. I suspect the relationship you describe is the inverse in a city like Bristol.

Anecdotes are easy to come by. Anyway, what's your point? That the fact that kWh from public charging points costs between four and twelve times as much as domestic ones doesn't matter because people without driveways or garages are generally well off?

 

[ABen90]

It’s definitely a problem but solutions are coming to the market with companies that install guttering in the kerb to enable you to run a cable from house to car. Although I do admit you then have to ensure you can park your car directly outside.

Kerbo Charge - EV Charging Cable Channel | Charge Without a Driveway | As Seen on Dragons' Den

Charge your EV at home with Kerbo Charge. Our safe and secure charging channel has a self-closing lid and is council-approved. As seen on Dragons' Den.

www.kerbocharge.com

 

[Energy]

It’s definitely a problem but solutions are coming to the market with companies that install guttering in the kerb to enable you to run a cable from house to car. Although I do admit you then have to ensure you can park your car directly outside.

Kerbo Charge - EV Charging Cable Channel | Charge Without a Driveway | As Seen on Dragons' Den

Charge your EV at home with Kerbo Charge. Our safe and secure charging channel has a self-closing lid and is council-approved. As seen on Dragons' Den.

www.kerbocharge.com

Yep, the main downside is needing to be parked directly outside you're house, but in rural areas, where houses are less dense, this is less of an issue.

Most will be able to use workplace charging as well.

The number of people who...

• Need a car
• Don't have a driveway
• Can't charge at work
• Can't park outside their house

...is going to be small. They can likely charge once a week at the supermarket, which should have prices fall to France levels once there is more competition.

 

[davews]

Yep, the main downside is needing to be parked directly outside you're house, but in rural areas, where houses are less dense, this is less of an issue.

Most will be able to use workplace charging as well.

The number of people who...

• Need a car
• Don't have a driveway
• Can't charge at work
• Can't park outside their house

...is going to be small. They can likely charge once a week at the supermarket, which should have prices fall to France levels once there is more competition.

Not sure about the 'going to be small' bit. I am retired (no work charging), don't have a drive and can only park directly outside if I park on the pavement which I guess wouldn't suit kerbocharge. In our street because it is narrow cars can only park on one side, the side opposite to me. But there again I have decided I don't need a car and don't have one at the moment.

 

[The Ham]

In life, unfortunately, there's a poor tax.

If you can't afford to buy in bulk, you pay more by having to buy packs which have a higher price per unit, if you have to buy cheap quality you often end up buying twice, of you but a cheap car is likely to be less efficient (if for no other reason that efficiency is the engine can reduce as the engine ages), if you can't afford to drive you are more likely to be reliant on smaller shops rather than supermarkets (so pay more), and so on and so forth.

EV's are just going to be another example.

The underlying issue isn't that it's going to cost a few pence per mile more by not having access to on street chargers with residential rates of electricity, rather the fact that people have little choice but to pay the cost of car ownership.

Even at 50% of the average (£1,800), this is nearly double the cost to the government per tax payer if the government were to pay for all public transport (£1,000). Given that most people paying much less than £1,800 per year would be doing fairly limited mileage.

For example if you pay:
- £300 insurance
- £150 MOT & maintenance
- £50 VED,
- £100 parking
- £600 purchase costs
Which are all fairly low and comes to £1,200 (we might be able to argue £1,050) meaning to get below £1,600 means having a car capable of doing 65mpg and fuel prices of £1.30 per litre you can only drive around 3,500 miles a year or 67 miles a week (at the lower cost that rises to around 4,500 miles a year or 77 miles a week) either way that's about 10 miles a day, so for the majority of travel should be able to be cycled by most people.

The point being, is in theory it should be cheaper for most people to pay extra taxes so that all public transport was free* and even if there was an uplift in public transport provision**, for the vast majority of people it would be cheaper if taxes paid for public transport and they paid more taxes than it would be for them to own a car (one of the main exceptions being if two tax payers only own one car).



*which would reduce the cost of provision by allowing to remove a lot of costs with selling tickets, ensuring people have tickets, etc. even if front line ticket sales staff were retained and used elsewhere, for example the time saving on the buses of everyone just being able to get on without paying, even just an extra second per person with the tap of a card can cut minutes off a route, reduced car use would cut further minutes off the route, which may not be much for one route, but for a bus company running hundreds of routes that could be enough time saving to run a few more routes without needing extra buses and extra staff.

**there's a fair chance that you could from the cost savings (note this is for buses and trains) from not having to pay to sell tickets, allow a near doubling of buses on the roads, but even if you had to double the amount paid by government to £2,000 to double public transport provision*** (which at current occupancy rates works allow nearly 30% of all miles travelled to be undertaken by public transport, it would also likely make walking/cycling more attractive, resulting in an uplift of that, as car travel distance, so likely traffic volumes, would nearly fall by 20%) given the current government support the total average extra cost per taxpayer would still be less than £1,500 a year

*** You'd probably not be able to increase rail capacity by much (XC being the obvious exception) particularly quickly (§) and so you'd be looking at running a lot more buses for the extra money

(§) Even at an £250 per tax payer you could spend £9.25bn a year in capacity increases (or extra line costing £100bn, so something on the scale of HS2 every 11 years).

 

[johncrossley]

How much are people in Norway (where virtually all new cars are EV now) paying to charge their cars if they can't charge at their home? They can't seriously be paying the rates charged in the UK, otherwise they wouldn't bother with EVs.

 

[cactustwirly]

In life, unfortunately, there's a poor tax.

If you can't afford to buy in bulk, you pay more by having to buy packs which have a higher price per unit, if you have to buy cheap quality you often end up buying twice, of you but a cheap car is likely to be less efficient (if for no other reason that efficiency is the engine can reduce as the engine ages), if you can't afford to drive you are more likely to be reliant on smaller shops rather than supermarkets (so pay more), and so on and so forth.

EV's are just going to be another example.

The underlying issue isn't that it's going to cost a few pence per mile more by not having access to on street chargers with residential rates of electricity, rather the fact that people have little choice but to pay the cost of car ownership.

Even at 50% of the average (£1,800), this is nearly double the cost to the government per tax payer if the government were to pay for all public transport (£1,000). Given that most people paying much less than £1,800 per year would be doing fairly limited mileage.

For example if you pay:
- £300 insurance
- £150 MOT & maintenance
- £50 VED,
- £100 parking
- £600 purchase costs
Which are all fairly low and comes to £1,200 (we might be able to argue £1,050) meaning to get below £1,600 means having a car capable of doing 65mpg and fuel prices of £1.30 per litre you can only drive around 3,500 miles a year or 67 miles a week (at the lower cost that rises to around 4,500 miles a year or 77 miles a week) either way that's about 10 miles a day, so for the majority of travel should be able to be cycled by most people.

The point being, is in theory it should be cheaper for most people to pay extra taxes so that all public transport was free* and even if there was an uplift in public transport provision**, for the vast majority of people it would be cheaper if taxes paid for public transport and they paid more taxes than it would be for them to own a car (one of the main exceptions being if two tax payers only own one car).



*which would reduce the cost of provision by allowing to remove a lot of costs with selling tickets, ensuring people have tickets, etc. even if front line ticket sales staff were retained and used elsewhere, for example the time saving on the buses of everyone just being able to get on without paying, even just an extra second per person with the tap of a card can cut minutes off a route, reduced car use would cut further minutes off the route, which may not be much for one route, but for a bus company running hundreds of routes that could be enough time saving to run a few more routes without needing extra buses and extra staff.

**there's a fair chance that you could from the cost savings (note this is for buses and trains) from not having to pay to sell tickets, allow a near doubling of buses on the roads, but even if you had to double the amount paid by government to £2,000 to double public transport provision*** (which at current occupancy rates works allow nearly 30% of all miles travelled to be undertaken by public transport, it would also likely make walking/cycling more attractive, resulting in an uplift of that, as car travel distance, so likely traffic volumes, would nearly fall by 20%) given the current government support the total average extra cost per taxpayer would still be less than £1,500 a year

*** You'd probably not be able to increase rail capacity by much (XC being the obvious exception) particularly quickly (§) and so you'd be looking at running a lot more buses for the extra money

(§) Even at an £250 per tax payer you could spend £9.25bn a year in capacity increases (or extra line costing £100bn, so something on the scale of HS2 every 11 years).

Where did you get your figures from?

They are well off, the car is extremely cheap if it only costs £600 per year!

VED is a flat rate of £195

£150 is optimistic for maintenance, a dealership service is £300+ which is required to maintain the warranty

 

[Noddy]

Anecdotes are easy to come by. Anyway, what's your point?

My point is it’s an incredibly lazy assumption (that I’ve seen repeated regularly and based on no solid data-in your case it’s ‘common sense’) that rich people have driveways and poor people don’t. While I don’t doubt it’s true in some places in many others it’s not. Jaywick in Essex is regularly cited as one of the most deprived areas in the country but virtually all the houses there either have a driveway or have room for a driveway. That’s not an anecdote, it’s a fact.

 

[Snow1964]

How much are people in Norway (where virtually all new cars are EV now) paying to charge their cars if they can't charge at their home? They can't seriously be paying the rates charged in the UK, otherwise they wouldn't bother with EVs.

Public chargers can be NOK 3-9 (about 22-66p) per Kw/h
Domestic chargers are nearer NOK 1.5 - 2 (about 10-15p)

But buying an EV means no vat on purchase, also some free tolls, free ferries, free parking, no or reduced annual tax, and ability to use bus lanes. (not sure if all these incentives still apply)

So lots of non fuel incentives too.

EDIT. The full list of Norwegian EV incentives, some are now much lower

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses
• 2023: The Norwegian Parliament launches a new goal: In 2030 all new heavy-duty vehicles must be zero emissions or run on biogas.
• 2025: Practically all new passenger cars sold, are EVs. Norway reaches 10 000 fast chargers and 800 000 EVs.

Norwegian EV policy

elbil.no

 

[Noddy]

How much are people in Norway (where virtually all new cars are EV now) paying to charge their cars if they can't charge at their home? They can't seriously be paying the rates charged in the UK, otherwise they wouldn't bother with EVs.

If I couldn’t get home charging I would buy a subscription. They can significantly reduce the cost of charging and while they are never going to be as good as home charging, it’ll still be cheaper than an equivalent ICE car. Even if you have home charging but you’re just going on holiday/doing a very long journey they can make sense just to buy one for one month. Don’t just look at the one off ‘pay as you go’ costs.

 

[johncrossley]

I live in a purpose built block of 48 flats, all of which have either a garage or a dedicated parking spot, plus there are also visitors parking spots as well. So in theory there could be EV charging in all these garages and spaces but there aren't any. There are countless other purpose built blocks of flats in London and the South East presumably in the same boat, so what is the hold up? This is a lot less disruptive than digging up streets to install kerb side charging.

 

[Energy]

I live in a purpose built block of 48 flats, all of which have either a garage or a dedicated parking spot, plus there are also visitors parking spots as well. So in theory there could be EV charging in all these garages and spaces but there aren't any. There are countless other purpose built blocks of flats in London and the South East presumably in the same boat, so what is the hold up? This is a lot less disruptive than digging up streets to install kerb side charging.

It’s up to the flat management company. The government already has grants for this.

With designated bays, if you’re meter cupboard is nearby to the garage it might be possible, with permission, to install an EV charger of the normal flat’s electricity meter.

 

[johncrossley]

It’s up to the flat management company. The government already has grants for this.

So why have almost no flats got EV charging? It should be a no-brainer. All the flats own a share of the freehold so it is technically up to us and I raised it at the annual meeting but our management agents sounded very sceptical.

With designated bays, if you’re meter cupboard is nearby to the garage it might be possible, with permission, to install an EV charger of the normal flat’s electricity meter.

I've got a garage but it is about 10 metres from the edge of the residential block.

 

[Noddy]

our management agents sounded very sceptical.

Remember if you own a share of the freehold they work for you, not the other way around.

Quoting from gov.uk (link below) for landlords/right to manage companies/residents management companies (and others):

EV infrastructure grant​

An EV infrastructure grant gives you money off the cost of wider building and installation work that’s needed to install multiple chargepoint sockets.

The work can be for sockets you want to install now and in the future. For example, an EV infrastructure grant can cover things like wiring and posts.

You can get up to £30,000 or 75% off the cost of the work. The amount depends on how many parking spaces the work covers.

You can get up to 30 infrastructure grants each financial year.

Each infrastructure grant must be used for a different property.

Electric vehicle chargepoint grant for residential landlords

Apply for an electric vehicle chargepoint grant if you rent out, lease or manage a residential property in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Increasingly having a charger installed will be seen as a desirable benefit/requirement so is an investment in a property.

 

[AM9]

The difference in costs betwen dwellings with private off-road parking and those without is rwelatively small. However if demand for properties better suited to EV ownership and charging becomes much greater, prices of those with will show a rise. This will mean that those who enjoy the convenience of home charging will have paid a premium for it in purchasing their home. Of course there are those caught in the middle having bought property which is 'EV home charging unfriendly' but local authorities may decide to adjust council tax assessment principles to mitigate some homes' charges where they can't (or won't) make particular provision for home/local charging.

 

[GusB]

So why have almost no flats got EV charging? It should be a no-brainer. All the flats own a share of the freehold so it is technically up to us and I raised it at the annual meeting but our management agents sounded very sceptical.



I've got a garage but it is about 10 metres from the edge of the residential block.

It's entirely up to you to pressure the powers that be to fix the problem. Why are you moaning here?

 

[johncrossley]

It's entirely up to you to pressure the powers that be to fix the problem. Why are you moaning here?

I'm not really talking specifically about myself, as I'm not likely to buy an EV at the moment anyway. I'm really querying why virtually no flats have charging, even though they should be relatively easy to convert.

 

[The Ham]

Where did you get your figures from?

They are well off, the car is extremely cheap if it only costs £600 per year!

VED is a flat rate of £195

£150 is optimistic for maintenance, a dealership service is £300+ which is required to maintain the warranty

Are those the only figures you're questioning?

The point was to look at fairly optimistic costs to maximise the number of miles available to do with the goal to be that any questions over values given to be that I'd say the values too low, if you start adding an extra £100 to something, based on 12p per mile you lop 835 miles from the distance you can travel. Which in turn makes

In the three points you make.

VED is only a flat rate on newer cars, some cars still have rates under £50.

Main dealer rates can be that high, but some individuals can (still) undertake a service themselves and then pay for an MOT.

Yes, the car would have to be very cheap, and you be very lucky to not have anything go wrong or need to replace something expensive - like the cam belt.

As I was saying very few people would be able to run a car for half the average cost of car ownership, as you point out, it's also easy to double those values.

As to the £3,600, that's based on a range of £280 to £300 per month and using the higher figure.

One website which uses the lower figure gives the following rundown:

ClearScore | Your credit score & report. For free. Forever.

Get your free credit score and credit report and be ClearScore sure. Check them as often as you like - it won’t affect your score.

www.nimblefins.co.uk

Purchase/Depreciation per year £1,251
Petrol and Diesel £747
Car Insurance £621
Repairs and Servicing £473
Motor vehicle road tax £153
Parking fees, tolls, and permits (excluding motoring fines) £39
Garage rent, other costs (excluding fines), car washing, etc. £44
Motoring organisation subscription (eg AA and RAC) £19
Anti-freeze, battery water, cleaning materials £10
Motoring fines £0
Annual running costs for a car £3,357

 

[cactustwirly]

Are those the only figures you're questioning?

The point was to look at fairly optimistic costs to maximise the number of miles available to do with the goal to be that any questions over values given to be that I'd say the values too low, if you start adding an extra £100 to something, based on 12p per mile you lop 835 miles from the distance you can travel. Which in turn makes

In the three points you make.

VED is only a flat rate on newer cars, some cars still have rates under £50.

Main dealer rates can be that high, but some individuals can (still) undertake a service themselves and then pay for an MOT.

Yes, the car would have to be very cheap, and you be very lucky to not have anything go wrong or need to replace something expensive - like the cam belt.

As I was saying very few people would be able to run a car for half the average cost of car ownership, as you point out, it's also easy to double those values.

As to the £3,600, that's based on a range of £280 to £300 per month and using the higher figure.

One website which uses the lower figure gives the following rundown:

ClearScore | Your credit score & report. For free. Forever.

Get your free credit score and credit report and be ClearScore sure. Check them as often as you like - it won’t affect your score.

www.nimblefins.co.uk

Purchase/Depreciation per year £1,251
Petrol and Diesel £747
Car Insurance £621
Repairs and Servicing £473
Motor vehicle road tax £153
Parking fees, tolls, and permits (excluding motoring fines) £39
Garage rent, other costs (excluding fines), car washing, etc. £44
Motoring organisation subscription (eg AA and RAC) £19
Anti-freeze, battery water, cleaning materials £10
Motoring fines £0
Annual running costs for a car £3,357

The costs at the bottom are more realistic although the insurance is a mean value I'm assuming and will be heavily skewed because the high costs of new drivers. Most experienced drivers will be paying less than that. I am paying more or less that figure for a very high group car and I'm in my mid 20s so still relatively high risk.

Servicing depends on what service, it's £250 for a basic service and £500 for a major service once every 4-5 years

Depreciation depends heavily on the car and age, a brand new EV will lose 5000 on the first year, but a fully depreciated older car will lose less than 1000 a year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

Even the boy racers of today will have to accept the transition to EVs (well, actually they don't - but it doesn't matter anyway). Given the ridiculous levels of torque and acceleration that EVs bring to the table, hot hatches of tomorrow are going to have the potential to be way faster than a lot of the 'hot hatches' around today.

Clearly insurance is likely to be an issue for those sporty models, but imagine when kids are buying up old MG4 Xpowers with 0-60 times of under 4 seconds... It is going to happen!

I agree that the existing Fiesta probably couldn't be easily adapted, but Ford should have been engineering a new platform for it - and by all means continuing to offer a petrol or petrol hybrid option alongside a BEV choice - then gradually transitioning to the BEV, as demand (hopefully) encouraged them to do,

I recall people saying there was no money in such models, but as I argued at the time - if Ford can't make a profitable small car, when others can (and are/have) then they've totally lost their way - something I think they did when they decided to pretty much take away all the power from Ford UK and Ford Europe, which understood their markets and the unique brands that aren't the same as Stateside.

As I predicted, the Fiesta will almost certainly return. If Ford is sensible, they'll also look at producing ST or even RS models. I've not been a member of the RS Owners Club for some years now, and I am not sure what their opinions would be on EV performance cars, but I am sure there will soon be a generation of people craving performance electric vehicles. MG, Hyundai and many others are making them and so should Ford! Halo cars sell the normal models, and it's easier than ever to make a performance variant.

Hot hatches are more than just outright speed, they're not the fastest. It's all about the lightweight chassis and handling which EVs will never be. They are far too heavy and high up and that doesn't make a car fun to drive, the only thing they have is the torque and speed in a straight line.

That's my problem with them, poor range, difficult to charge without a drive and awful things to drive. Plus the ridiculous purchase price, literally no reason why I'd go out and buy one

 

[AM9]

That's my problem with them, poor range, difficult to charge without a drive and awful things to drive. Plus the ridiculous purchase price, literally no reason why I'd go out and buy one

Maybe there will be when IC vehicles are, banned in many urban locales, difficult to find petrol stations limiting practical range and expensive to find new parts for repair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's my problem with them, poor range, difficult to charge without a drive and awful things to drive. Plus the ridiculous purchase price, literally no reason why I'd go out and buy one

The cash purchase price of all brand new cars is now utterly ludicrous. Only a fool buys a new car for cash now. The pricing is designed for PCPs if you really want new, otherwise buy 2-3 years old, where prices, now they've settled a bit since the COVID era new car scarcity is pretty much over, are back down to inflationary type increases over what they were ten years ago.

I was having a bit of a nose yesterday and on similar used cars (e.g. Kia e-Niro vs. Ceed Estate, or Skoda Octavia estate vs Enyaq*) the price of EV and ICE are getting remarkably close together. Indeed both of those cars were a consideration when I last bought - I chose the petrol Ceed because of concerns about charging network development, but in 5 years' time things I think will be very different.

* It's hard to directly compare identical cars because there are so few electric estates, though the MG5 was a candidate I find it a fairly poor quality car (shame the MG4 estate has been dropped in favour of another SUV) though these SUVs are a similar size to the C-segment estates** and aren't too high-riding so have as close to a similar feel as you'll get).

** See also that the Ford Puma, while an SUV, is not entirely dissimilar to the Focus, just a bit higher riding - it might technically have replaced the Ecosport but it's really nothing like it. But then that sort of thing varies even among estates - in the current Astra you feel like you're sat on the floor, whereas in some other C-segment cars you sit a bit higher.

 

[cactustwirly]

The cash purchase price of all brand new cars is now utterly ludicrous. Only a fool buys a new car for cash now. The pricing is designed for PCPs if you really want new, otherwise buy 2-3 years old, where prices, now they've settled a bit since the COVID era new car scarcity is pretty much over, are back down to inflationary type increases over what they were ten years ago.

I was having a bit of a nose yesterday and on similar used cars (e.g. Kia e-Niro vs. Ceed Estate, or Skoda Octavia estate vs Enyaq*) the price of EV and ICE are getting remarkably close together. Indeed both of those cars were a consideration when I last bought - I chose the petrol Ceed because of concerns about charging network development, but in 5 years' time things I think will be very different.

* It's hard to directly compare identical cars because there are so few electric estates, though the MG5 was a candidate I find it a fairly poor quality car (shame the MG4 estate has been dropped in favour of another SUV) though these SUVs are a similar size to the C-segment estates** and aren't too high-riding so have as close to a similar feel as you'll get).

** See also that the Ford Puma, while an SUV, is not entirely dissimilar to the Focus, just a bit higher riding - it might technically have replaced the Ecosport but it's really nothing like it. But then that sort of thing varies even among estates - in the current Astra you feel like you're sat on the floor, whereas in some other C-segment cars you sit a bit higher.

Very true and EVs have very bad depreciation.

For the amount I bought my latest car for I could have bought a 2 year old MG or KIA EV thing.

I decided to get an older more premium car for the same money.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Very true and EVs have very bad depreciation.

For the amount I bought my latest car for I could have bought a 2 year old MG or KIA EV thing.

I decided to get an older more premium car for the same money.

Careful now, that kind of talk doesn't go down too well on this thread. BEVs are wonderful and part of our eco-utopian future, don't you know!

 

[rmHawk765]

BEVs are wonderful and part of our eco-utopian future, don't you know!

Yes, very good for the environment, aren't they...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, very good for the environment, aren't they...

Most importantly they provide for cleaner air at the point of use. The difference the ULEZ has made is significant, and the air in central London is rural levels of clean now it is mostly EVs being driven there. It's most noticeable just how polluted smaller towns without low emission zones are now compared to our largest and traditionally (but no longer) dirtiest city.

That argument shouts hugely in their favour even were they (they're not) all charged entirely from coal-fired power generation.

 

[rmHawk765]

Most importantly they provide for cleaner air at the point of use. The difference the ULEZ has made is significant, and the air in central London is rural levels of clean now it is mostly EVs being driven there. It's most noticeable just how polluted smaller towns without low emission zones are now compared to our largest and traditionally (but no longer) dirtiest city.

That argument shouts hugely in their favour even were they (they're not) all charged entirely from coal-fired power generation.

I absolutely agree with this in all fairness. It does make a major difference in cities, not just in terms of pollution but also noise. However I think it is very debatable whether this is enough to overcome the issue with battery manufacturing and charging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I absolutely agree with this in all fairness. It does make a major difference in cities, not just in terms of pollution but also noise. However I think it is very debatable whether this is enough to overcome the issue with battery manufacturing and charging.

I don't think it is debatable at all. However it could be argued to be in favour of PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) rather than pure EVs, because the battery can be used in an urban area and petrol outside it, and a PHEV requires a much smaller battery than a pure EV, being designed to do maybe 50 miles on a charge.

 

[Bald Rick]

The difference the ULEZ has made is significant, and the air in central London is rural levels of clean now it is mostly EVs being driven there.

Agreed. I walked across Waterloo Bridge earlier this week. I counted cars passing. Just over 100, of which more than half where EVs (incl London Taxis), and most of the rest were hybrids.

Now that more London buses are being electrified, it’s very noticeable that the noise and pollution tends to come from mid size vans, ie Transit to small HGV size.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that more London buses are being electrified, it’s very noticeable that the noise and pollution tends to come from mid size vans, ie Transit to small HGV size.

Things like Amazon and DPD vans tend to be electric to be fair. It is as you say the medium sized rigid builders' HGVs that are probably the most oppressive vehicles in London now (both in pollution terms and in noise terms, as well as in terms of them usually being driven in an extremely aggressive manner) - I don't however know how that can be resolved, as that sort of vehicle largely isn't available as an EV at present. Plus older vans being used by small businesses, but ULEZ means these typically aren't as old and as knackered (and polluting) as in other cities.

 

[cactustwirly]

Most importantly they provide for cleaner air at the point of use. The difference the ULEZ has made is significant, and the air in central London is rural levels of clean now it is mostly EVs being driven there. It's most noticeable just how polluted smaller towns without low emission zones are now compared to our largest and traditionally (but no longer) dirtiest city.

That argument shouts hugely in their favour even were they (they're not) all charged entirely from coal-fired power generation.

However isn't most of that due to buses in London switching to EV and having less polluting models.

The amount of NOx from large vehicles is significantly more than from a private car.

Plus the natural churn of cars, non ULEZ diesel cars are over 10 years old now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

Things like Amazon and DPD vans tend to be electric to be fair. It is as you say the medium sized rigid builders' HGVs that are probably the most oppressive vehicles in London now (both in pollution terms and in noise terms, as well as in terms of them usually being driven in an extremely aggressive manner) - I don't however know how that can be resolved, as that sort of vehicle largely isn't available as an EV at present. Plus older vans being used by small businesses, but ULEZ means these typically aren't as old and as knackered (and polluting) as in other cities.

Amazon drivers use beaten up old transits from what I've seen