UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[styles]

It's capped at £480 for passenger cars

Yes, £960 for larger vehicles.

Doesn't change the point. Even rich people aren't going to pay £480 to regularly drive to Waverley station.

They will however write off £12.50 like pennies dropped down a drain.

In Scotland it's a fine - in London it's a charge.

 

[GLC]

It's not based on size, it's based on vehicle classification. Perhaps rich people could afford to buy a petrol car made within the last 20 years, or a diesel car within the last 10 (or an EV) to get around the charge

 

[AlastairFraser]

It will be very interesting to see how our financially-strapped borough* deals with the many hundreds of the parking areas, which range in capacity from 4 spaces to 12+ and varying in shape from "park around the edges of a square" to "park in a parallel line".

*' Recent data my wife read out to me (I don't have a source to hand) cited the Borough's annual welfare outgoings exceed its revenues.

Another forum member mentioned grants, I agree. Perhaps there will be an auction of rights to install chargers on local authority land in x local authority area.

 

[styles]

It's not based on size, it's based on vehicle classification.

A bit pedantic at this point.

It's £960 for buses, coaches, minibuses and HGVs.

These are, in all but exceptional cases, larger vehicle than cars.

People knew what was meant, come on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2025 ==

Another forum member mentioned grants, I agree. Perhaps there will be an auction of rights to install chargers on local authority land in x local authority area.

There are still grants for home chargers for what it's worth.

Central government, the energy savings trust, TfL, and manufacturers often offer (partially or fully) matched funding for public chargers.

The number of public chargers in the UK is growing exponentially (actually exponentially, not just 'rapidly but called exponentially for effect'). I can't see it being a big issue in the medium to long term. As it's not in countries where EV ownership is high. Of course it's an issue for some people, but you can't please everyone.





Alt text for two images above: two charts showing number of public chargers in the UK by year. The first graph shows all public chargers. The second graph shows 'higher powered' public chargers. Higher powered was defined as 25kW+ until October 2023, then 50kW+ from October 2023 onwards. Even accounting for this change in definition, both graphs show exponential growth in public chargers and public higher powered chargers.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There are still grants for home chargers for what it's worth.

Central government, the energy savings trust, TfL, and manufacturers often offer (partially or fully) matched funding for public chargers.

The number of public chargers in the UK is growing exponentially (actually exponentially, not just 'rapidly but called exponentially for effect'). I can't see it being a big issue in the medium to long term. As it's not in countries where EV ownership is high. Of course it's an issue for some people, but you can't please everyone.

I don't see charging capacity or speed being an issue, I agree, but purchase price for EVs and the price of charging using a public charger will have to reduce to something much closer to the home charging price, before EVs are adopted by a majority of the population.

 

[styles]

I don't see charging capacity or speed being an issue, I agree, but purchase price for EVs and the price of charging using a public charger will have to reduce to something much closer to the home charging price, before EVs are adopted by a majority of the population.

Aye agree with that.

I have considered an EV genuinely for a few years. Most of my journeys are long distance trips around the Highlands though. Chargers can be scarce, and when they are present, they're expensive. They would be cheaper per mile than an ICE, but I've got to offset the cost of the vehicle, and it just doesn't stack up.

Where I live now, if I was driving to work say 20 miles away, I would 100% get a cheap EV/hybrid, install a home charger, and get on an EV leccy tariff. As it happens I work from home, and even if I decide to rent some coworking space (which I'm considering), a cycle/bus/train journey would probably still be cheaper than charging+parking combined.

As a result, I have a filthy diesel which I'm not allowed to drive to Waverley (which is not an enjoyable driving experience), but gets obscene mpg. It's in good condition and hasn't needed any major repairs, so it's done well, and I'll be keeping it until either diesel becomes signifiacntly more expensive than public leccy charging minus the cost of a full EV which can do 400mi, or Midlothian decides to make itself a low emission zone (not happening).

 

[Sun Chariot]

I don't see charging capacity or speed being an issue, I agree, but purchase price for EVs and the price of charging using a public charger will have to reduce to something much closer to the home charging price, before EVs are adopted by a majority of the population.

Absolutely this.
My posts #5184 and #5186 relate to the borough of Havant including Leigh Park, West Leigh and, for this context, also Waterlooville. Significant number of council built properties. Significant residences on low incomes and / or on welfare benefits.
The majority of vehicles are older than 10 years and many older than 15 years. Vast majority are fossil burners. Many parked on allocated "lots" away from houses and flats the owners live in.

 

[Brubulus]

The issue isn't availablity of charging (or speed), it's price and reliability. There's a charger at the end of my street, however it's regularly out of action for weeks at a time, and is 54p per KW (AC). Not exactly an advertisment for electric cars.

You can't plan around non dependable chargers.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Aye agree with that.

I have considered an EV genuinely for a few years. Most of my journeys are long distance trips around the Highlands though. Chargers can be scarce, and when they are present, they're expensive. They would be cheaper per mile than an ICE, but I've got to offset the cost of the vehicle, and it just doesn't stack up.

Where I live now, if I was driving to work say 20 miles away, I would 100% get a cheap EV/hybrid, install a home charger, and get on an EV leccy tariff. As it happens I work from home, and even if I decide to rent some coworking space (which I'm considering), a cycle/bus/train journey would probably still be cheaper than charging+parking combined.

As a result, I have a filthy diesel which I'm not allowed to drive to Waverley (which is not an enjoyable driving experience), but gets obscene mpg. It's in good condition and hasn't needed any major repairs, so it's done well, and I'll be keeping it until either diesel becomes signifiacntly more expensive than public leccy charging minus the cost of a full EV which can do 400mi, or Midlothian decides to make itself a low emission zone (not happening).

Indeed it seems your situation suits a cheap runabout that can do a bit more on occasion. I do think that a EV suiting your use case and budget will be around within the next decade

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2025 ==

Absolutely this.
My posts #5184 and #5186 relate to the borough of Havant including Leigh Park, West Leigh and, for this context, also Waterlooville. Significant number of council built properties. Significant residences on low incomes and / or on welfare benefits.
The majority of vehicles are older than 10 years and many older than 15 years. Vast majority are fossil burners. Many parked on allocated "lots" away from houses and flats the owners live in.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how well EV adoption goes in places like Leigh Park. I reckon that they will have to resurrect the South Hants Rapid Transit tram scheme for travel from Clanfield/Waterlooville/Leigh Park/Havant into Portsmouth as car ownership gets more and more expensive.

 

[HSTEd]

As a result, I have a filthy diesel which I'm not allowed to drive to Waverley (which is not an enjoyable driving experience), but gets obscene mpg. It's in good condition and hasn't needed any major repairs, so it's done well, and I'll be keeping it until either diesel becomes signifiacntly more expensive than public leccy charging minus the cost of a full EV which can do 400mi, or Midlothian decides to make itself a low emission zone (not happening).

Do you have room for a diesel tnak that can be filled by a lorry delivery?

Once liquid fuel demand starts falling radically (within a decade it will start falling about 5-6% per annum), it may become physically difficult to obtain retail quantities of diesel in many places.

Diesel will last longer because it is propped up by lorry requirements, but petrol is going to be in serious trouble - especially as people won't be able to store significant quantities of petrol at home.

 

[styles]

Do you have room for a diesel tnak that can be filled by a lorry delivery?

Once liquid fuel demand starts falling radically (within a decade it will start falling about 5-6% per annum), it may become physically difficult to obtain retail quantities of diesel in many places.

Diesel will last longer because it is propped up by lorry requirements, but petrol is going to be in serious trouble - especially as people won't be able to store significant quantities of petrol at home.

I mean if it got this scarce I'd just get an EV!

 

[jon0844]

It's nice to see that with so many public chargers now (obviously not for the whole of the UK before anyone jumps on me!) we are starting to see a bit of a price war.. but EV owners need to stand firm and support the locations that charge less so it continues.

I am not a fan of subscriptions, but clearly someone needing to charge a lot at public chargers would benefit... and I see Ionity will charge 43p per kWh if you sign up. Tesla will do for well under 30p, and I don't have time to check all the others. Octopus' Electroverse also informs you of plunge pricing events, while some stations do half price or less electricity late at night, early morning (and some mid morning). All of these prices are for all charging rates, not just 7kWh AC.

I don't think Shell or BP, who clearly only want to pretend they care about electric vehicles, are joining in - but I always avoid them for petrol, or even using the shop which is grossly overpriced. They aren't losing my business as they never had it. Perhaps when more people get EVs they'll have to do something, but I won't rush back to any company that was happy to rip people off for so long.

Obviously the 89p (even £1+ at some locations, like my local Porsche garage) will always be used to compare prices by those who want to make EVs out to be no cheaper than ICE cars - but soon it's going to become harder to use that argument as any EV owner can look at one of the many apps to find cheaper charging.

It will become exactly the same as those who compare a 6am flight booked months in advance vs a anytime walk-up ticket on the train to 'win' an argument attacking rail.

 

[Noddy]

The majority of vehicles are older than 10 years and many older than 15 years.

If the majority of vehicles in a particular area are 10-15 years old that means they are likely to be transitioning in 10-15 years time. So for these areas we’re looking at 2035-40 from today, 2040-45 from the ICE ban, and 2045-2050 from the hybrid ban. I don’t think you should be focussing on those areas today and believing that what it is like today is what it will be like in 2035-2050.

 

[7031]

Something I found interesting albeit anecdotal - I was in China recently and I reckon a good 50%+ of the cars on the roads were electric, plus all of the buses. Really the only cars on the road that weren't EVs were either:
1. Old beaters that the owners hadn't bothered to replace yet or
2. Expensive luxury cars that also happened not to be EVs.

Makes me think that the UK that the UK, a rather small island, could not manage EVs is complete nonsense.

 

[Harpo]

Makes me think that the UK that the UK, a rather small island, could not manage EVs is complete nonsense.

I’d not go comparing differences between China and the UK. The political and cultural barriers to delivery have no common factors. Just ask those who beat the railway drum for years about getting ‘Japanese levels of reliability’ - We got Hitachi.

 

[jon0844]

New £63 million boost for Britain's electric vehicle revolution

Funding will help to build a fairer, cleaner future where every family can benefit from cheaper, greener transport.

www.gov.uk

New £63 million boost for Britain's electric vehicle revolution​

Funding will help to build a fairer, cleaner future where every family can benefit from cheaper, greener transport.

• major boost to charging investment to break down barriers to electric vehicle ownership and boost charging infrastructure across the UK, cutting costs for families, businesses and the public sector
• £63 million package to support at-home charging for households without driveways, transition NHS fleets to save millions for the health service in England, create thousands of chargepoints at business depots across the UK
• builds on £400 million invested in charging infrastructure and recent Zero Emission Vehicle Mandate updates to kickstart economic growth, create thousands of green jobs, and put more money in people’s pockets as part of the Plan for Change

Also of note, the ability for large EV charging locations to advertise on road signs (similar to existing motorway service station signs):

In a pioneering move to help EV drivers plug into the rapidly expanding charging network, government is also modernising EV charging signage on major roads. EV charging hubs have more than doubled since the beginning of 2023 and immediate changes will allow larger EV charging hubs to be signposted from major A-roads for the first time. Government is committed to boosting charging for long journeys, with £400 million announced in the Spending Review to support charging infrastructure, including on the strategic road network.

On a recent drive, I noticed one A-road services that had a large petrol/diesel type sign showing the kWh charge rate (42p I think) also. Clearly with a rate like that, you'd want to advertise it - and if all locations had signs (perhaps being forced to) then maybe that would also help rates fall. I mean, who wants to advertise 89p to EV motorists?!

 

[Bald Rick]

I saw a great clip of Rory Sutherland (adevrtising executive and unlikely social media star) talking through what would have happened if EVs had happened first. Everyone driving around in EVs, then someone comes along (he says from VW) - hey I’ve got this new invention, called an ICE car. You carry around 60 litres of highly inflammable liquid, and that is fed to an engine which has cyclinders in which there are lots of mini explosions, and the torque is only useful in a limited range so we need a gear box filled with oil, and it all gets hot so we need a cooling system, and there 250 moving parts in the drive whole train rather than 7 in the EV cars, but this must be better.

But it’s quicker right? - err, not really.
What, is it cleaner? - oh no it farts out noxious gases
Quieter then? - Good grief no much noisier.
Whats good about it? Well it only takes 5-10 minutes to recharge.
Oh, ok, and you can do that at home? - Good god no, home? are you mad? You have to go a special place that stores this inflammable liquid…

And so on.

 

[JamesT]

I saw a great clip of Rory Sutherland (adevrtising executive and unlikely social media star) talking through what would have happened if EVs had happened first. Everyone driving around in EVs, then someone comes along (he says from VW) - hey I’ve got this new invention, called an ICE car. You carry around 60 litres of highly inflammable liquid, and that is fed to an engine which has cyclinders in which there are lots of mini explosions, and the torque is only useful in a limited range so we need a gear box filled with oil, and it all gets hot so we need a cooling system, and there 250 moving parts in the drive whole train rather than 7 in the EV cars, but this must be better.

But it’s quicker right? - err, not really.
What, is it cleaner? - oh no it farts out noxious gases
Quieter then? - Good grief no much noisier.
Whats good about it? Well it only takes 5-10 minutes to recharge.
Oh, ok, and you can do that at home? - Good god no, home? are you mad? You have to go a special place that stores this inflammable liquid…

And so on.

Funnily enough, that is what happened. There were battery cars before the combustion engine was invented.
But battery technology in the 19th century couldn’t match the advantages of a relatively easily portable high density fuel.

 

[Harpo]

and it all gets hot so we need a cooling system,

I was surprised to see water-cooled electric motors being installed during the TV series Vintage Voltage, where people spend eye watering sums electrifying classic ICE vehicles.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Funnily enough, that is what happened. There were battery cars before the combustion engine was invented.
But battery technology in the 19th century couldn’t match the advantages of a relatively easily portable high density fuel.

It is the high energy density of the fuel that is the USP for the internal combustion engine.
I calculate that in filling my cars 8 gallon tank in 3 minutes I am transferring energy at about three megawatts.
Beat that with a BEV

 

[jon0844]

Funnily enough, that is what happened. There were battery cars before the combustion engine was invented.
But battery technology in the 19th century couldn’t match the advantages of a relatively easily portable high density fuel.

Rory's video has been shared all over (it is very cleverly done) and the number one anti-EV reply is indeed that electric cars came first (ironically, when that's been pointed out before, it has been mostly denied as impossible/untrue/fake news). I guess now it suits to claim that, yes, electric cars did exist before and the reason we switched was because nobody wanted them and they were rubbish.

Of course, the reason is obvious - the battery and charging tech wasn't there and wasn't likely to be anytime soon. They know this of course, but now all of a sudden it suits to change the reasons and use it as some sort of smoking gun to debunk the video and make out ICE cars were the answer and still are.

Frankly, it's laughable as what he says is so spot on it hurts because there's no real counter to the points made so humorously.

FWIW, when smartphones were emerging and needing lots more power - and the development of batteries for phones was still catching up*, there was talk of fuel cell batteries for phones. Can you imagine if that had happened?!

* Right now, many Chinese makers are switching to Silicon Carbon battery tech that means phones that once had 4,500-5,000mAh batteries are now coming with 6,000-8,000mAh batteries in the same size or even smaller. The EU has some restrictions on these batteries when they go over 6,000mAh but I am sure they'll address this in due course.

Samsung is yet to adopt this technology, presumably because Samsung may not yet be ready to switch given their own manufacturing setup and the associated costs of transition/re-tooling etc.

There's a lot of talk about the next generation of EV batteries coming in the coming years, which manufacturers will either use to offer more range for smaller sized batteries (good for small cars) or to massively increase the range. By the time these arrive, many people may have actually realised they don't need an EV with 500-1000 miles between charges so my money will be on cheaper, lighter, smaller batteries being the preferred solution for all but those driving vans, trucks, buses etc.

It is the high energy density of the fuel that is the USP for the internal combustion engine.
I calculate that in filling my cars 8 gallon tank in 3 minutes I am transferring energy at about three megawatts.
Beat that with a BEV

Driving home from a long trip, stopping off at the services for a snack and toilet break. Then going back to the parked car and driving to the petrol station, go to a pump, fill up, walk inside to pay, get back into the car for a second tim..

or driving to the services, plug in, go for a snack and a toilet break, then drive off with another 100+ miles added on in 10 minutes or less.

If your trip was short enough that you didn't need to stop for a toilet break or something to eat/drink, or stretch your legs, there's a good chance didn't need to charge anyway.

Best not get a car with extremely fast charging as you may find it's done before you are! Not all EV charging locations charge for overstaying, but in a busy place you're going to get a fair few nasty stares - just like those who fill up at a pump and then go inside to shop without moving the car first.

 

[renegademaster]

fuel cell batteries for phones. Can you imagine if that had happened?!

You had internal combustion powered phones

 

[Noddy]

It is the high energy density of the fuel that is the USP for the internal combustion engine.
I calculate that in filling my cars 8 gallon tank in 3 minutes I am transferring energy at about three megawatts.
Beat that with a BEV

Potentially, but then you are paying to throw away 70% of that energy.

 

[styles]

It's kinda too obvious to have to point out isn't it?

It's not just the battery tech - but electrical and electronic tech now compared to literally two centuries ago is night and day. TVs used to be black and white, tiny screen size but mahoosive total size. Now you've got HD TVs in your pocket which last half a day of video watching on a single charge.

Like.. obviously an electric car from 1820 is going to require a massive battery, waste loads of energy in heat and noise, and have a range of mere walking distances. But now EVs can do London to Edinburgh on a single charge (with heating on and music on!):

They're self-evidently not the same technology.

 

[jon0844]

It's kinda too obvious to have to point out isn't it?

It's not just the battery tech - but electrical and electronic tech now compared to literally two centuries ago is night and day. TVs used to be black and white, tiny screen size but mahoosive total size. Now you've got HD TVs in your pocket which last half a day of video watching on a single charge.

Like.. obviously an electric car from 1820 is going to require a massive battery, waste loads of energy in heat and noise, and have a range of mere walking distances. But now EVs can do London to Edinburgh on a single charge (with heating on and music on!):

They're self-evidently not the same technology.

All of this just gives me great entertainment when you see how people have to suddenly switch to finding new arguments, even ones that contradict previous arguments, just to keep trying to convince people that something new is bad.

Even when sales are increasing month after month, with diesel sales off a cliff, petrol cars down, and gradually more BEVs being sold than hybrids (not there yet, but it's growing all the time and it's only 2025).

I feel for the person who spends their time on forums with the usual milk float jokes, saying batteries die after two years, the grid can't cope etc, and gradually all their friends and family get one - and if they have the right tariff or have invested in things like solar panels are thinking 'It cost me £3 to charge my car, and with the £6 I got from exporting solar, I'm £3 up.. Shell never paid me £3 to fill up by tank' - and they're the last person in the room desperately trying to find someone to listen to them.

I remember writing about cameras on phones back when the first camera phones were phones with clip-on cameras with a 0.3MP resolution, and everyone was 'why do you want to take photos with a phone when I can use my Kodak?'. Before that even the industry itself couldn't see what anyone would want or need text messaging for, besides an extension of basic paging services. Even mobile data came about before anything but niche business cases were thought of, and video streaming was laughably bad so people wrote that off.

All of those things developed and more and more people adopted the technology as time went on. I'm sure a lot of the people against these things are still alive, but they've gone surprisingly quiet....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2025 ==

I was surprised to see water-cooled electric motors being installed during the TV series Vintage Voltage, where people spend eye watering sums electrifying classic ICE vehicles.

I am fascinated by people converting old classics to electric, to give them a whole new lease of life. I bet some people are upset that they're no longer original and authentic, but it might just be the only way to keep them running and able to be enjoyed by new generations.

 

[J663738]

You would not need grants nor incentives for people to switch to EVs nor would need any incentives to get rid of your gas boiler if electricity prices were lower. In China household unit electricity costs are roughly 5p and EVs sales are booming, here domestic electricity costs are about 30p while on street chargers can be as high as 80p.
I like many people won't go near an EV until electricity prices come down and charging costs for those without a drive is sorted out. (5% vat on domestic, 20% vat on retail)

 

[jon0844]

Public chargers are now getting cheaper, slowly, as companies are realising they've invested a lot of money in a site with ultra rapid chargers that most people are avoiding because they don't like being ripped off.

You can now pay below 50p and even as low as 25p without subscriptions at some locations*... not enough for sure, but the people who invested in the roll out of many sites will want a return and they're just not going to get it at 79p or 89p.

Shell, BP etc have good reason to overcharge so as to put people off, and many companies arrogantly assumed they could just price match and keep the costs high cartel-style. I guess it still works at motorway services, but people are getting wiser and there are so many apps now and route planners to let you check in advance.

By contrast, it can be hard to check petrol prices. Some sites use crowd sourced data and prices may be out of date, or you're even expected to pay for access to the most up-to-date information!

* for some of the cheapest rates you may need to charge at specific times, like after 10pm or mid-morning (thus avoiding the rush hours).

 

[Harpo]

I like many people won't go near an EV until electricity prices come down and charging costs for those without a drive is sorted out. (5% vat on domestic, 20% vat on retail)

I won’t hold my breath on that happening. The chancellor’s revenue is already about 7p/mile down on each ICE to electric car convert.

 

[jon0844]

I won’t hold my breath on that happening. The chancellor’s revenue is already about 7p/mile down on each ICE to electric car convert.

I'd hope there's a value to less pollution at ground level that is taken into account.

 

[bspahh]

Shell, BP etc have good reason to overcharge so as to put people off, and many companies arrogantly assumed they could just price match and keep the costs high cartel-style. I guess it still works at motorway services, but people are getting wiser and there are so many apps now and route planners to let you check in advance.

Expensive chargers mean that you have an increased chance of being able to use one without having to wait for someone else to finish.

By contrast, it can be hard to check petrol prices. Some sites use crowd sourced data and prices may be out of date, or you're even expected to pay for access to the most up-to-date information!

I can check fuel prices in Waze, and I do if I'm on a long trip, if it means I can avoid using really expensive filling stations with a minor detour. However, I suspect that the way that people check petrol prices 99% of the time is by looking at the price on the big sign outside. I think its good for chargers to do the same.