UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[MotCO]

I think that is more of a problem for manufacturers of caravans and horse box trailers than ones that make electric cars.

Why? The can't make them weightless. Peope don't tow a caravan or horsebox for no reason.

 

[Ediswan]

If a plug in hybrid is a company car which was chosen for cheaper tax, but you also get a card to get free fuel, then there isn't much of an incentive to plug them in. Once they get sold on and the owners pay for their own fuel, there is a bigger incentive to plug them in often.

Box-ticking hybrids are ... best not say. Somebody I met through work had a Porsche Cayenne hybrid, which the salesman admitted had about 15 miles real world electric range.

 

[GusB]

But hitch a trailer or a caravan, and the range drops to 120 miles. So if you are going on holiday with your caravan, or taking a horsebox to a show, you have to stop to recharge every 100 miles. And recharging stations do not accommodate trailers: you will have to park up, unhitch the trailer, recharge, rehitch and move off. Not very practical.

Another niche case!

 

[HSTEd]

The original question was about how long before petrol stations start closing, and petrol becomes harder to buy. Hybrids still require petrol, so I would ignore your 113,278 plug in hybrids and just look at the 262,487 pure EVs for 10 months, which is not dissimilar to my 300,000 per year.

A plug in hybrid will consume far less petroleum than a conventional car, because a substantial portion fo the time it will be operating as an electric vehicle. Especially as a large fraction of car mileage is made up of short journeys.
Whilst the effect is not the total loss of business seen with battery vehicles, it will still be substantial.

Do you honestly see 2m EV sales in 2035 from a base of 300,000 in 2024? Based on 300,000 EV sales in 2024, to hit the target you need to sell an extra 170,000 EVs each year, which is 50% up on current sales. Yes, I accept it will not be straight line, but will EV sales hit 2m in 10 years?

New car registrations aren't going to fall substantially, because cars will continue falling to accidents, rust and the like.
The only question is who is going to be making them.

384,000 vehicles are scrapped for accident damage every year, apparently!

VW are struggling with sales and closing factories, and it increasingly looks as though we will be dependent on Chnese imports to hit this target. Is this good politically or economically?

The number of British people employed in the car manufacturing industry is rather small and shrinking regardless. The closest thing we have to a domestic manufacturer (Jaguar) isn't even in favour of attempting to stop massive Chinese imports, because they fear retaliation in their somewhat lucrative Chinese market. Jaguar are going all EV to better cater to that market after all.
If the likes of BYD can provide electric cars and the legacy European players can't, so be it.

The dinosaurs had their chance.

Harry's Garage

has just released a new video on the electric Porsche Macan. It has a range of around 300 miles. But hitch a trailer or a caravan, and the range drops to 120 miles. So if you are going on holiday with your caravan, or taking a horsebox to a show, you have to stop to recharge every 100 miles. And recharging stations do not accommodate trailers: you will have to park up, unhitch the trailer, recharge, rehitch and move off. Not very practical.

It's hard to get stats, but there are apparently only ~550,000 mobile caravans in the UK.
Towing a caravan is not a significant mission of the car fleet.

Towing trailers is more interesting, but I don't know what fraction of the car fleet has ever been used to tow.

It is doubtful that they will be able to sustain a nation spanning petrol station fleet - then again they probably won't have to. They will likely just buy whatever diesel vehicles are available on the second hand market and fuel where lorries do, at least until lorries go electric too.

 

[davews]

Almost nobody who owns a car walks to the supermarket for their main weekly shop. Some do have it delivered, but the vast majority go there for it.

Our Tesco is a five minute walk via pathways or a one mile drive by car with several slow traffic light junctions. Virtually nobody in our estate takes their car. Maybe unusual I guess.

But since I now don't have a car, EV or other, I have no other comments in this thread.

 

[SWT_USER]

Harry's Garage

has just released a new video on the electric Porsche Macan. It has a range of around 300 miles. But hitch a trailer or a caravan, and the range drops to 120 miles. So if you are going on holiday with your caravan, or taking a horsebox to a show, you have to stop to recharge every 100 miles. And recharging stations do not accommodate trailers: you will have to park up, unhitch the trailer, recharge, rehitch and move off. Not very practical.

For a number of reasons, I don't think EV sales will increase significantly in the next few years - we still need to see a significant uplift in charging facilities, technology to see range increases (especially if required for towing), price reductions etc.

Great news if it results in fewer caravans on the road slowing everyone else down. Another bonus of the EV revolution.

Our Tesco is a five minute walk via pathways or a one mile drive by car with several slow traffic light junctions. Virtually nobody in our estate takes their car. Maybe unusual I guess.

But since I now don't have a car, EV or other, I have no other comments in this thread.

I'm 5 mins walk away from a big Tesco, the reason I don't walk there is because I can't carry back a weekly shop for a family of 4, rather than the distance. I would expect that to be common.

In reality I get groceries delivered... but when I do need the big shop in person I drive for that reason.

 

[MotCO]

Another niche case!

So 550,000 towing caravans is niche? Add horseboxes, tent trailers, car trailers etc, and you could get up to close to 1m, which is 5% of cars in the UK.

So you want people to stop using their caravans, and presumably take foreign holidays which will increase CO2 emissions. And also decimate the caravan making industry, camp site owners etc. All to save an infinitesimal small amount of emissions which other countries are ignoring. Look at the poor attendance at COP29. Whatever savings we make will be more than offset by other countries increasing their emissions. All it will do is make this country poorer - it won't save the world.

PS I have never owned a caravan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another niche case!

Pretty much all the objections are. A lot of this thread mirrors the "RailUK Standard Minority" stuff - that is, imagining people with a set of needs and characteristics which are made up of those from lots of people and don't very often all affect the same person at once unless they're very, very unfortunate.

The reality is that EVs will, in time, suit a fair number of drivers better (due to better performance, better environmental credentials, cheaper to run, cheaper to service, more reliable, easier to plug in overnight than stop for fuel etc), will be neutral to the vast majority (so they'll switch due to nudges in e.g. the tax system, reducing numbers of opportunities to buy petrol/diesel due to the smaller market etc) and there will be a minority, probably under 10-20%, for whom they're a nuisance.

If we switch 80-90% of cars to EV, even if the remaining 10-20% are all old, filthy diesels (and odds on they won't be, most aside from classics will be petrol or Euro 6, and most classics are petrol anyway), the benefits are still absolutely massive. That small number might need to change how they use their ICE vehicle, e.g. have fuel delivered rather than getting it outside Tesco, but in reality once the number of ICE users goes down that low you've got almost all the benefits and could even consider ending things like ULEZ/ZEZ.

Talking of caravanning, it seems to be reducing heavily in popularity anyway (though I don't have any statistics), being very much a "Boomer" generation pursuit. I think the easy availability online of good value family chain hotels (and ease of booking things like hostels and B&Bs online) is killing it off. Millennials and younger seem to prefer camper vans, which will probably be some of the last vehicles to go to EV because they're typically converted older vans, but that doesn't really matter because if most vehicles convert you still get most of the benefits, much like the way everyone converting their coal fires to gas central heating was hugely beneficial, but the odd person who kept a coal fire barely matters now.

 

[corfield]

I live in a village, so yes it's normal to have to travel to refuel, although obviously I don't make a specific journey to fill up.
The argument is still valid - it's not absolutely necessary to be able to charge at home.

It will be because any kind of “do it elsewhere” will be some or all of: expensive, damaging to batteries over long term, massively inconvenient time burden.

Hence why the acolytes all have driveway charging off cheap overnight rates and only mugs and the desperate do otherwise.

With a fast charger you can still be on your way in a relatively short period of time. You don't need to wait with your car while it does its thing. You also don't need to charge until it's full; I usually don't fill the tank every time I refuel.

Fast chargers kill the battery over time. “Relatively” is being by broken by the heavy lifting you are trying to make it do in that sentence!

I fill the tank every time I refuel for the obvious reason it costs trivially little extra time vs the time for the entire operation. Not filling it makes no sense unless you are cashflow limited. Although it explains a lot…

It isn't really a small niche - not in this neck of the woods anyway. There are lots of small towns and villages that are a fair distance from a filling station. If they do have a local petrol station they're likely to be quite pricey and and will have limited opening hours, so planning is still required.

To be 14 miles from a petrol station is a tiny niche of UK population, even if it is all you see about you.

While we're on the subject of niche cases, how many people actually need the endurance and 700 miles to play with?

Well given there are millions of cars with that, isn’t that the answer?

Supports longer trips and means you don’t have to refill very often which is dead time in your life.

Isn’t that obvious?

I often end up with <75 range because clearly I want to minimise the time spent doing this.

Can you really not imagine that I’m not going to accept a car that I have to waste an hour charging every other day? Or will you just redesign my life for me, because that’ll go down well.

If I can charge my car off-road for 7p per kWh overnight, I will. Why wouldn't I? Should I feel guilty for those who bought or rented a property without off-road parking or a garage? I used to run two cars so bought a house with a driveway for two cars. I didn't have to, but I couldn't then moan about having to use a street. If I had designated parking in a block of flats, I'd be pushing the management company to install power points.

I am not expecting petrol to get significantly cheaper in the coming years, unless Reform UK gets in and decides to axe all fuel duty and VAT without a care about what to do with the lost income. Frankly, even they wouldn't do it in reality and no other party is going to do much more than freeze duty, while oil is likely to get more expensive. Ergo, petrol will get more expensive - and for those charging at 7 or 7.5p per kWh, it's already stupidly more expensive.

Electricity should hopefully get cheaper, and at least many people have the option to fit solar panels or a battery to get cheaper energy. Again, some can't and I can't really feel guilty there either. Everyone could move home, and in time most homes are going to be equipped for EVs, heat pumps, better insulation etc because buyers will demand it. If you live in a home that isn't up to standard, you'll likely need to do it if you want a good chance of selling it (or getting the money you want).

There are plenty of things other people can do that I can't and I don't worry about it.

Petrol is getting cheaper though because aside from geopolitics its growing slower than inflation.

As your boasts about the cost of electricity - just wait til they tax you to the extent ICE motorists are. Which one way or another, they are going to. Enjoy it until then!

 

[GusB]

I fill the tank every time I refuel for the obvious reason it costs trivially little extra time vs the time for the entire operation. Not filling it makes no sense unless you are cashflow limited. Although it explains a lot…

I don't generally fill my car up every time because there's no need to. I spend a set amount of money to top up when I do my shopping, knowing that it'll do me until the next time. Why carry the extra weight around? Having said that, I did fill the tank the last time because fuel was significantly cheaper than it had been for a while and I took advantage of that.

Either way, I could avoid going into town completely if I had an EV because I could use a local charger.

Also, could you elaborate on "although it explains a lot..."?

To be 14 miles from a petrol station is a tiny niche of UK population, even if it is all you see about

Please read posts more carefully before responding; I said it was a 14 mile round trip.

Well given there are millions of cars with that, isn’t that the answer?

Supports longer trips and means you don’t have to refill very often which is dead time in your life.

Isn’t that obvious?

No it isn't obvious because not everyone is going to use the entire range of their car on a single trip every time they use it!

 

[HSTEd]

If we switch 80-90% of cars to EV, even if the remaining 10-20% are all old, filthy diesels (and odds on they won't be, most aside from classics will be petrol or Euro 6, and most classics are petrol anyway), the benefits are still absolutely massive. That small number might need to change how they use their ICE vehicle, e.g. have fuel delivered rather than getting it outside Tesco, but in reality once the number of ICE users goes down that low you've got almost all the benefits and could even consider ending things like ULEZ/ZEZ.

Diesels will be much more capable of functioning after this transition however, both because of lorry demand for diesel sustaining a fueling station market, and because of the much more stringent regulations on the storage of petrol at home.
Storing petrol, unlike diesel, requires certification from the Petroleum Enforcement Authority for that area and there is a hard limit on the tankage permitted (275L).

I think you'd probably be better off converting petrol cars to LPG, because propane storage regs are actually less stringent than for petrol.

 

[Energy]

I often end up with <75 range because clearly I want to minimise the time spent doing this.

It isn't dissimilar with EVs. The average driver does ~20 miles per day, when most EVs have a 200+mi (that's on the low end...) range most can charge once per week comfortably.

For those who can't charge at home or work, supermarket charging is likely to be significant. Even an hour on a rapid charger while doing the weekly shop will be plenty for most. Supermarket charging should be cheap, they already have the grid connections and are willing to go low margin on other products (e.g petrol) to get people into stores. Sainsburys and Morrisons (through MFG) have started to take it seriously, though rollout will take a while and they currently have minimal competition from other supermarkets so have no incentive to lower prices.

 

[bspahh]

Millennials and younger seem to prefer camper vans, which will probably be some of the last vehicles to go to EV because they're typically converted older vans

A campervan has extra weight over the base van, which will trim the range a bit from the ~200 miles for a new model Transit Custom.

However, waiting for it to charge will be a nicer experience in a campervan than a car, when you have more space, a fridge and somewhere to cook.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pretty much all the objections are. A lot of this thread mirrors the "RailUK Standard Minority" stuff - that is, imagining people with a set of needs and characteristics which are made up of those from lots of people and don't very often all affect the same person at once unless they're very, very unfortunate.

Not having a driveway, or living in short-term rented accommodation is hardly the "RailUK Standard Minority". Huge swathes of the UK housing stock is like this.

I wish EV advocates would simply admit that the push towards zero emissions at the tailpipe WILL mean that those on lower or unstable incomes, in council high-rises, etc. are simply priced off the road. At least then we'd be able to discuss the improvements to public transport that would be required to compensate for this loss of individual freedom, without getting bogged down in arguments about horse boxes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not having a driveway, or living in short-term rented accommodation is hardly the "RailUK Standard Minority". Huge swathes of the UK housing stock is like this.

It's the application of multiple characteristics that is the issue in the debate. Plenty of people don't have driveways, but will easily be able to plug in at Tesco. While that won't be as cheap as home charging, it's comparable to the use of a petrol car, and to be honest I think we'll see regulation of charging prices which will bring them down a lot. And I also think we'll see other developments like cable conduits and lamp-post charging.

At present there are people an EV isn't the right choice for. At the moment that might even include me (because a lot of my driving is long trips to remote places without charging for the purpose of e.g. hillwalking). But I'm not most people. Most people (to refer to a different discussion) don't mind that LNER have withdrawn off peak walk ups, they care that the Advances they do buy have near doubled in price at some times of day. Whereas I have an issue with the loss of walk-ups. The thing here is that increasingly an EV would suit most use cases.

I wish EV advocates would simply admit that the push towards zero emissions at the tailpipe WILL mean that those on lower or unstable incomes, in council high-rises, etc. are simply priced off the road. At least then we'd be able to discuss the improvements to public transport that would be required to compensate for this loss of individual freedom, without getting bogged down in arguments about horse boxes.

I think people are already being priced off the road by higher car and fuel prices and the swingeing cost of the first year's insurance for a new or young driver (often far more than the price of, for instance, a used Nissan Leaf). It's not an EV thing specifically, because there *are* options, and as the used market filters through they'll be very similar to the ICE options in say 10 years' time.

 

[Krokodil]

I wish EV advocates would simply admit that the push towards zero emissions at the tailpipe WILL mean that those on lower or unstable incomes, in council high-rises, etc. are simply priced off the road. At least then we'd be able to discuss the improvements to public transport that would be required to compensate for this loss of individual freedom, without getting bogged down in arguments about horse boxes.

Owning almost any car is effectively pouring money down the drain. The poorest in society can't afford to run a car, though many are forced to do it anyway due to lack of alternatives. I'm a strong supporter of measures (such as improved public transport and safe active travel routes) to make car ownership a choice rather than an obligation.

 

[HSTEd]

Not having a driveway, or living in short-term rented accommodation is hardly the "RailUK Standard Minority". Huge swathes of the UK housing stock is like this.

Something like 70% of the UK housing stock has off road parking.
That leaves us 30% without, however a very large fraction of these people will either have access to a workplace parking space, or will use the car to travel to a location with off street parking. In either case chargers can be provided there.

Only a very small fraction of people have to park on the street and do not regularly travel to a location with an off street parking space.
And probably a large fraction of those people could travel to such a place if there was a reason to go there.

 

[AM9]

As your boasts about the cost of electricity - just wait til they tax you to the extent ICE motorists are. Which one way or another, they are going to. Enjoy it until then!

If by that you mean some form of road pricing, then bear in mind that such a tax is primarily justified in the basis of congestion on overloaded roads. So it would be applied to all obstructions on the roads* on which IC vehicles are no better than EVS, - indeed they are worse because they cause gross pollution as well. So the continuation of duty for eligible polluting vehicles may continue, as well as increasing servicing and fuel prices. Your apparent hubris on the thought of EV drivers paying more for road access may be quite premature.
* As for many road and vehicle costs, certain official and emergency use cases may be exempt from new charges as is currently the case.

 

[slowroad]

Owning almost any car is effectively pouring money down the drain. The poorest in society can't afford to run a car, though many are forced to do it anyway due to lack of alternatives. I'm a strong supporter of measures (such as improved public transport and safe active travel routes) to make car ownership a choice rather than an obligation.

The main reason that, outside inner cities, car ownership is high, even amongst people on relatively low incomes, is that people like them. Car ownership is almost exactly the same in the Netherlands as in the UK.

 

[MotCO]

Pretty much all the objections are.

But if up add up all the 'niche cases' - caravanners, 300 mile a dayers, no off-street parking / no cheap recharge stations, can't afford it, etc - you will soon add up to a substantial mass for whom EVs are not suitable. Do you deny them the chance to drive while others can?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if up add up all the 'niche cases' - caravanners, 300 mile a dayers, no off-street parking / no cheap recharge stations, can't afford it, etc - you will soon add up to a substantial mass for whom EVs are not suitable. Do you deny them the chance to drive while others can?

Can you quote where in my posts I have proposed an outright ban on internal-combustion engined cars? I reckon at least 80% of people could switch to EV over the coming few years. By the "80-20 rule" that would be a big, big improvement to air quality etc nationally.

(I have proposed a national ULEZ in another thread, but that's different because there are plenty of cheap compliant used petrol cars available)

 

[Peter Sarf]

I doubt the state apparatus exists to actually enforce punishments on people snaking power cables across footpaths outside of terrace houses or swinging them out on collapsing poles over the footway.
People will do it and it will become the de-facto standard whatever the rules currently say.
As to "professionally installed and certified" - there is already a well established base of practice for the installation of such sockets, so I would not expect it to change much in the future.



Likely at public charging points, paying whatever premium is the smallest they can find.
Of course, once everyone else has gone electric the actual fully burdened cost of petroleum fuels available to them will be so high that it will still be worth it whatever happens.

Also apartment blocks with dedicated parking spaces will likely have chargers installed.

I can see the number of people with no access to a car increasing. I just wish we were encouraging people to manage without a car.

But there will always be cases where the requirement for a car is unavoidable. My favourite music festival for instance - If I did not go then fine, but I very much want to go. Mainly it is trips where I am carrying something too large.

If car makers stop selling ICE cars by 2030 or 2035 (some are stopping sooner) then are some of these ICE owners keeping the same car on the road for 100 years?

EV production will either ramp up, more people will switch to second hand EVs that should last longer than many ICE cars, or maybe we'll just have less cars full stop.

When petrol prices rise further, many cars will be brought out from a garage for a car show or special occasions and will have to be a car worthy of such ownership. I suspect most of those car owners will be enthusiasts who will have likely bought an EV earlier than most.

Most people into cars aren't dismissing EVs as the group of people who are just anti EV and work hard coming up with use cases that make EV ownership look impossible.

Some examples posted recently don't point to keeping a petrol or diesel car but in fact having no car at all.

Exactly. We need to help reduce the need for car usage.

Almost nobody who owns a car walks to the supermarket for their main weekly shop. Some do have it delivered, but the vast majority go there for it.

Don't forget that if you have off road parking (which again many do) you can just plug in overnight, taking no additional time at all.

I go to the local supermarket two or three times a week. It is a reasonable walk but I don't buy (much !) more than I can carry. I deliberately avoid using the car.

Not having a driveway, or living in short-term rented accommodation is hardly the "RailUK Standard Minority". Huge swathes of the UK housing stock is like this.

I wish EV advocates would simply admit that the push towards zero emissions at the tailpipe WILL mean that those on lower or unstable incomes, in council high-rises, etc. are simply priced off the road. At least then we'd be able to discuss the improvements to public transport that would be required to compensate for this loss of individual freedom, without getting bogged down in arguments about horse boxes.

Here here. Yes there is a significant number of people for whom an EV is not yet suitable.

It's the application of multiple characteristics that is the issue in the debate. Plenty of people don't have driveways, but will easily be able to plug in at Tesco. While that won't be as cheap as home charging, it's comparable to the use of a petrol car, and to be honest I think we'll see regulation of charging prices which will bring them down a lot. And I also think we'll see other developments like cable conduits and lamp-post charging.

At present there are people an EV isn't the right choice for. At the moment that might even include me (because a lot of my driving is long trips to remote places without charging for the purpose of e.g. hillwalking). But I'm not most people. Most people (to refer to a different discussion) don't mind that LNER have withdrawn off peak walk ups, they care that the Advances they do buy have near doubled in price at some times of day. Whereas I have an issue with the loss of walk-ups. The thing here is that increasingly an EV would suit most use cases.



I think people are already being priced off the road by higher car and fuel prices and the swingeing cost of the first year's insurance for a new or young driver (often far more than the price of, for instance, a used Nissan Leaf). It's not an EV thing specifically, because there *are* options, and as the used market filters through they'll be very similar to the ICE options in say 10 years' time.

We just need to make reduced car usage easier.

Owning almost any car is effectively pouring money down the drain. The poorest in society can't afford to run a car, though many are forced to do it anyway due to lack of alternatives. I'm a strong supporter of measures (such as improved public transport and safe active travel routes) to make car ownership a choice rather than an obligation.

It is the car culture we live in and there are always things we do that require a car. But we could reduce a chunk of car usage by not allowing out of town shopping centres but instead having the shops where the transport nodes are (town centres).

I know people who drive to the corner shop five minutes walk or less away. One example can only actually reduce their walking compared to walking all the way by having to illegally park outside the shop !.

I am talking as someone who is trying (not very hard) to get to the point where I only ever hire a car/van.
But I am swayed by the knowledge that a car sitting there available is a luxury that I want to continue to enjoy.

I have always, since 1098s, bought quite old cars. I think the newest I ever owned was 7 years old and I kept that until it was 17 years old. So the chance of me getting an EV is about ten years away (2034). But if people hang on to their ICE cars for longer I may struggle to find a decent ICE secondhand. Then if EVs do not have longevity (still a bit concerned about battery life) I will be stuck with no car.

I really wonder whether EVs are really just an attempt to keep the car culture alive ?.
Is it a way to keep the powerful motor industry on side ?.

 

[AM9]

I really wonder whether EVs are really just an attempt to keep the car culture alive ?.
Is it a way to keep the powerful motor industry on side ?.

There's also the little issue of CO2 making the climate, and therefore life, more and more difficult for billions of the world's population, - although you might just be lucky in that it doesn't affect your life much.

 

[Noddy]

Not having a driveway, or living in short-term rented accommodation is hardly the "RailUK Standard Minority". Huge swathes of the UK housing stock is like this.

I wish EV advocates would simply admit that the push towards zero emissions at the tailpipe WILL mean that those on lower or unstable incomes, in council high-rises, etc. are simply priced off the road. At least then we'd be able to discuss the improvements to public transport that would be required to compensate for this loss of individual freedom, without getting bogged down in arguments about horse boxes.

I can’t speak for London (where sometimes it appears the most of the commentators on this thread live) but I regularly work on new build housing sites in villages, towns and cities (largest being Bristol). The vast majority (80-90%) of sites I’m at have 7kw EV chargers fitted as standard on all houses and flats (the remaining 10-20% are either sites with older planning permissions still working their way through the system or city centre flats with no parking full stop). This includes everything from top end large detached private houses to housing association maisonettes and blocks of flats. I’ve already added photos on this thread showing examples (here). So I disagree that there will be no suitable housing for those on low incomes. By the time EVs become affordable for those on very low incomes there will be 10s if not 100s of thousands of homes like this.

Yes existing houses and especially flats are clearly an issue-however I would point to Norway. According to the census 21.7% of people in England and Wales live in a flat, maisonette or apartment. According to Statista.com 20.7% of people in Norway live in a ‘multi-dwelling’ building. However it has not stopped Norway from getting on and converting to EVs (which is now approaching 100% adoption for new cars). If you are genuinely worried about people on very low income and how they will cope with the transition to EVs, can I suggest you write to your MP (especially if they are Labour or likely to be EV friendly) to ask them to encourage the government to implement a ‘right to a charger’ policy as Norway has done?

 

[dcbwhaley]

Another niche case!

I don't think that towing caravans or horseboxes is a particularly niche activity.
Not considering the number I get stuck behind

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that towing caravans or horseboxes is a particularly niche activity.
Not considering the number I get stuck behind

I see hardly any caravans these days. Plenty of horseboxes, though many of these are all-in-one van conversions instead of being towed. I reckon though that the percentage of the population owning a horse is well below 1%. If only horse owners have to have ICE vehicles, that's still a big step forward.

 

[Krokodil]

I don't think that towing caravans or horseboxes is a particularly niche activity.
Not considering the number I get stuck behind

Presumably EVs will be faster at towing uphill. Coupled with the reduced range forcing them to pull over regularly to recharge then I count this as a win-win.

 

[bspahh]

I see hardly any caravans these days. Plenty of horseboxes, though many of these are all-in-one van conversions instead of being towed. I reckon though that the percentage of the population owning a horse is well below 1%. If only horse owners have to have ICE vehicles, that's still a big step forward.

Nearly all of the people who use a horse box trailer, will have off street parking where they can charge an electric tow car.

I think most journeys with a horse box trailer will be short enough so that they won't need to recharge before they get home.

There are people who tow a caravan to the South of France, and that will be a pain if you have to stop every couple of hours to charge up, particularly if you need to uncouple the caravan to fit in the charging bay. For those people a hybrid will be less hassle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are people who tow a caravan to the South of France, and that will be a pain if you have to stop every couple of hours to charge up, particularly if you need to uncouple the caravan to fit in the charging bay. For those people a hybrid will be less hassle.

Though equally perhaps it'll motivate them to make the journey a more leisurely part of the holiday than trying to do it in one go as some do. Most of the "but I might have to stop to charge" arguments are by people who aren't taking adequate breaks; the EV making them do so is a good thing (for everyone else).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's the application of multiple characteristics that is the issue in the debate. Plenty of people don't have driveways, but will easily be able to plug in at Tesco. While that won't be as cheap as home charging, it's comparable to the use of a petrol car, and to be honest I think we'll see regulation of charging prices which will bring them down a lot. And I also think we'll see other developments like cable conduits and lamp-post charging.

That's the thing though- if the cost of charging is close to the cost of fuel, why switch? More importantly why switch now, particularly if price controls and things like lamppost chargers (which frankly are very much "pie in the sky" here in North Kirklees) come in as you predict. Even if all your predictions come true, the smart thing to do for many is wait until tomorrow's jam actually arrives.

I think people are already being priced off the road by higher car and fuel prices and the swingeing cost of the first year's insurance for a new or young driver (often far more than the price of, for instance, a used Nissan Leaf). It's not an EV thing specifically, because there *are* options, and as the used market filters through they'll be very similar to the ICE options in say 10 years' time.

Previously on this very thread, you've been quite critical of early Nissan Leafs... but all of a sudden they're fine, if you're a poor?

A quick search on AutoTrader for cars with an MOT, in the lowest insurance group, at maximum £1,500, brings up over 200 results. All of them petrol, unsurprisingly: if there are roadworthy and functional EVs of a similar age to those (generally 12-18 years old) in ten years time, at a similar sort of price... I'll be shocked!

I can’t speak for London (where sometimes it appears the most of the commentators on this thread live) but I regularly work on new build housing sites in villages, towns and cities (largest being Bristol). The vast majority (80-90%) of sites I’m at have 7kw EV chargers fitted as standard on all houses and flats (the remaining 10-20% are either sites with older planning permissions still working their way through the system or city centre flats with no parking full stop). This includes everything from top end large detached private houses to housing association maisonettes and blocks of flats. I’ve already added photos on this thread showing examples (here). So I disagree that there will be no suitable housing for those on low incomes. By the time EVs become affordable for those on very low incomes there will be 10s if not 100s of thousands of homes like this.

Yes existing houses and especially flats are clearly an issue-however I would point to Norway. According to the census 21.7% of people in England and Wales live in a flat, maisonette or apartment. According to Statista.com 20.7% of people in Norway live in a ‘multi-dwelling’ building. However it has not stopped Norway from getting on and converting to EVs (which is now approaching 100% adoption for new cars). If you are genuinely worried about people on very low income and how they will cope with the transition to EVs, can I suggest you write to your MP (especially if they are Labour or likely to be EV friendly) to ask them to encourage the government to implement a ‘right to a charger’ policy as Norway has done?

That's all well and good, but most people don't live in new-builds. The vast majority of UK housing stock is older, and we aren't likely to see mass clearances of structurally-sound Victorian terraces for them to be replaced by fancy new eco-homes. The comparisons with Norway are of little use to someone on a low income who lives in Dewsbury. Norway may well be the example to aspire to, but we didn't do the smart thing with our oil wealth that the Norwegians did... and that ship has long since departed the fjord!

As for writing to my MP, unfortunately both my MP and local councillor are single-issue politicians (not that their labour predecessors were much cop either)... but that's very much off-topic.