UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Sun Chariot]

Slightly OT (well - off continent ). Over the next few days, I'll l have a chance to see the extent of New York's EV-adoption and a comparison with the UK's urban adoption.

 

[johncrossley]

Slightly OT (well - off continent ). Over the next few days, I'll l have a chance to see the extent of New York's EV-adoption and a comparison with the UK's urban adoption.

A quick internet search indicates that New York (state or city) is not noteworthy in this respect.

 

[Sun Chariot]

A quick internet search indicates that New York (state or city) is not noteworthy in this respect.

Thanks - that does surprise me - although I guess most urban transit needs are met through public transport and "home delivery" there

 

[Noddy]

Thanks - that does surprise me - although I guess most urban transit needs are met through public transport and "home delivery" there

In New York rebates for an EV are about 2000 dollars. Compared with Colorado which is 5000 dollars and California which can be anything up to 30 000 depending on income and specific location.

While New York is not at the bottom of list, you need to go to California if you want to see high levels of EV adoption in the USA. But I don’t think it would be that much higher than here. If you want to see high levels of EV adoption go to Norway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

Yes, however off-street parking is also a luxury to most people living in urban areas.

This simply isn’t true. It may be true specifically for London and to some degree if you live in another inner city area but the UK as a whole is a country which typically has large numbers of low density 20th and 21st century housing in our suburbs and towns (part of the reason why public transport is a problem because the population density just isn’t high enough to support a good service).

Since the 1930s the vast majority of housing has been built with driveways and/or defined parking areas/spaces. I live in a post-war three bed ex-council house, it’s hardly a luxury house but it has a driveway. I lived in a block of bog standard flats built in the 90s when I was younger. It had a defined parking space, but it wasn’t a luxury flat.

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly OT (well - off continent ). Over the next few days, I'll l have a chance to see the extent of New York's EV-adoption and a comparison with the UK's urban adoption.

Not much. Mostly Teslas

 

[johncrossley]

(part of the reason why public transport is a problem because the population density just isn’t high enough to support a good service).

This is somewhat off-topic, but when compared to many other developed countries, England has a very high population density (especially south of Preston and east of Bristol). Planning is strongly regulated, and NIMBYs are extremely powerful. North America and Australia are far more obvious places to look if you want to see low density suburbs. Even in classic post-war British suburbia, semi-detached houses are far more common than detached houses. In the US, by contrast, the vast majority of people live in detached houses, including most poor people. Mainland Europe is often viewed as the model for high density, but plenty of people live in semi-detached or detached houses with gardens.

Low density is commonly used as an excuse for the failings of public transport policy, and depressingly most people believe it, thinking that nothing can be done.

 

[corfield]

It's something to consider when choosing where to live. If it's important to you then choose a house or apartment complex with off street parking - as with any house you will need to balance this against other things like location and price.

The point being there are many, many houses where people have cars and where they have no dedicated parking.

Regardless of the most fantastical dreams of anti-motorists, they are going to continue to want, and vote for, the ability to have a car.

It’s not particularly important to me as I have a superbly efficient diesal that will last another decade plus. But I’m not the one saying I have to convert to EV at some point.

Low density is commonly used as an excuse for the failings of public transport policy, and depressingly most people believe it, thinking that nothing can be done.

I think thats just reality, public transport requires mode changes at stops and every stop adds route time. Low density inevitably requires more stops and more time to get to one making it even less competitive to a point to point mode. Your example of the US/Australia proving even more low density = more car based transport.

“It’s physics jim!”

This simply isn’t true. It may be true specifically for London and to some degree if you live in another inner city area but the UK as a whole is a country which typically has large numbers of low density 20th and 21st century housing in our suburbs and towns (part of the reason why public transport is a problem because the population density just isn’t high enough to support a good service).

Since the 1930s the vast majority of housing has been built with driveways and/or defined parking areas/spaces. I live in a post-war three bed ex-council house, it’s hardly a luxury house but it has a driveway. I lived in a block of bog standard flats built in the 90s when I was younger. It had a defined parking space, but it wasn’t a luxury flat.

Facts are that 1/3rd of UK housing lacks a driveway. Ranging from 1/6 in rural areas to 2/3 in cities.

A third of UK homeowners don’t have a driveway or garage to

Electric car drivers face a postcode lottery on public charging as the lack of ‘on-street’ infrastructure threatens to pull the plug on the uptake o

www.transportxtra.com

So the OP’s comment about off street parking being a luxury in urban areas perhaps overstates it (since 1/3 do have it in urban areas), but from the above one could place towns at say 50% and thus it is very misleading to make generalisations from your experience with post war council houses.

The great danger with EVs is how they are going to remove the benefits of cars from the bottom third of the population, by barriers to purchase and to charging - not so much as a deliberate policy but simply by omission and that the decision makers and proponents have nice big houees in leafy streets in nice places. A cynic would say many are happy with that as it reduces those peoples congestion.

Continuing as we are seems likely to produce a democratic backlash, as indeed we are seeing in places and likely I think to see in the UK by 2028.

 

[johncrossley]

What proportion of the population in Norway have off street parking? Looking at random residential streets in Oslo, Trondheim and Bergen on Street View with parked cars, they don't seem to have charging facilities. So they must be charging elsewhere.

I think thats just reality, public transport requires mode changes at stops and every stop adds route time. Low density inevitably requires more stops and more time to get to one making it even less competitive to a point to point mode. Your example of the US/Australia proving even more low density = more car based transport.

The point is that Britain is actually high density and is full of large towns and big cities, so the conditions are relatively favourable for public transport. People have been persuaded to assume that density is low when it isn't, therefore there is no hope and a car based transport policy is the only option. But you don't even need very high density for good public transport. Various cities in Europe have good public transport modal share, many of them not huge cities full of tower blocks.

 

[ninja-lewis]

Facts are that 1/3rd of UK housing lacks a driveway. Ranging from 1/6 in rural areas to 2/3 in cities.

A third of UK homeowners don’t have a driveway or garage to

Electric car drivers face a postcode lottery on public charging as the lack of ‘on-street’ infrastructure threatens to pull the plug on the uptake o

www.transportxtra.com

So the OP’s comment about off street parking being a luxury in urban areas perhaps overstates it (since 1/3 do have it in urban areas), but from the above one could place towns at say 50% and thus it is very misleading to make generalisations from your experience with post war council houses.

The great danger with EVs is how they are going to remove the benefits of cars from the bottom third of the population, by barriers to purchase and to charging - not so much as a deliberate policy but simply by omission and that the decision makers and proponents have nice big houees in leafy streets in nice places. A cynic would say many are happy with that as it reduces those peoples congestion.

Continuing as we are seems likely to produce a democratic backlash, as indeed we are seeing in places and likely I think to see in the UK by 2028.

Need to be careful with that statistic because that is using all UK households, not just car owning households. Access to driveways will be higher amongst the latter group than the overall population.

Vehicle mileage and occupancy

Data on vehicle mileage and occupancy, produced by Department for Transport.

www.gov.uk

62% of UK cars are parked overnight on private property with a further 10% in garaged. The 25% parked on the road and 3% elsewhere will include some second cars (and third/fourth etc cars) where the owner has to park it on the street as they don't have room to park all their cars off-road. Very few car owners will need to charge their car every night so it would be possible to keep multiple cars charged by alternating the cars parked on the driveway on different nights.

Ally this with wider access to chargers at workplaces and other destination chargers as well as official and unofficial on-street provision and a large proportion of the car owners will have access to reasonably priced EV chargers (certainly cheaper than ICE fuels in 2028).

 

[Noddy]

So the OP’s comment about off street parking being a luxury in urban areas perhaps overstates it (since 1/3 do have it in urban areas), but from the above one could place towns at say 50% and thus it is very misleading to make generalisations from your experience with post war council houses.

I absolutely agree that 1/3 of houses don’t have parking. What I disagree about is that (with the exceptions I mentioned in my previous post) having parking in urban areas (ie towns and cities) is a ‘luxury’. It’s not, it is widely available at all ends of the market and (currently) in most areas (there are as ever exceptions) makes only negligible difference to the relative price of the housing. On the last point that may change as demand for houses with private parking rises and without falls, but we’re not near that point yet, and even in an EV world many will still choose, for the same reasons they do today, not to have car. So those houses without off street parking is potentially going to be cheaper in relative terms for those who don’t want or need a car.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Need to be careful with that statistic because that is using all UK households, not just car owning households. Access to driveways will be higher amongst the latter group than the overall population.

Vehicle mileage and occupancy

Data on vehicle mileage and occupancy, produced by Department for Transport.

www.gov.uk

62% of UK cars are parked overnight on private property with a further 10% in garaged. The 25% parked on the road and 3% elsewhere will include some second cars (and third/fourth etc cars) where the owner has to park it on the street as they don't have room to park all their cars off-road. Very few car owners will need to charge their car every night so it would be possible to keep multiple cars charged by alternating the cars parked on the driveway on different nights.

Ally this with wider access to chargers at workplaces and other destination chargers as well as official and unofficial on-street provision and a large proportion of the car owners will have access to reasonably priced EV chargers (certainly cheaper than ICE fuels in 2028).

Dodgey argument there. If I had an EV does that mean I could park on someone else's driveway ?. Oh and that driveway would tend to be quite some distance from me. I won't be tempted to buy an EV until there is a charging point at every parking space in my road.

 

[corfield]

Need to be careful with that statistic because that is using all UK households, not just car owning households. Access to driveways will be higher amongst the latter group than the overall population.

Not convinced that is necesarily true, and certainly not in a large enough number.

Unarguably it does show a large proportion of the population do not have off street parking therefore do not have the capacity to switch to EVs without a massive expansion of street charging - which does not appear to be happening. It’s also not clear that the electricty grid could sustain that in most places. A conversation with a neighbour who has pressured the council elicited the response that they could not put street parking in due to that very problem and were already at underground infra limits with a few EV charging bays in car parks. May or may not be true but there you are.

Vehicle mileage and occupancy

Data on vehicle mileage and occupancy, produced by Department for Transport.

www.gov.uk

62% of UK cars are parked overnight on private property with a further 10% in garaged. The 25% parked on the road and 3% elsewhere will include some second cars (and third/fourth etc cars) where the owner has to park it on the street as they don't have room to park all their cars off-road.

If 25% are on the road and 33% dont have a driveway, with 80% household ownership - then your example can only be a small part of the venn diagram.

Note 45% households are single car, 35% 2 more more.

Very few car owners will need to charge their car every night so it would be possible to keep multiple cars charged by alternating the cars parked on the driveway on different nights.

Easier said than done though and that’s from someone from a family with 4 cars and a 5 car driveway.

(certainly cheaper than ICE fuels in 2028).

Due solely to tax, and assuming current tax regimes remain in place. It seems obvious the Govt will create a new tax on EV usage otherwise it faces a 20Bn hole from fuel tax going which no chancellor can afford. Even if it delays that to avoid discouraging take up (and the take up is slow so fuel tax revenues will only taper off slowly), it’ll come eventually one way or another.

Perhaps we’ll stop raiding motorists as an easy cash cow )sinfe road pricing is vastly harder and more expensive to collect than a fuel tax) but that has massive implications for non-motorists who will be included in whatever other tax rises cover the shortfall - especially if it affects electricity prices.

 

[ninja-lewis]

Dodgey argument there. If I had an EV does that mean I could park on someone else's driveway ?. Oh and that driveway would tend to be quite some distance from me. I won't be tempted to buy an EV until there is a charging point at every parking space in my road.

I don't see how you got that from my post at all. I was talking about households with multiple cars (34% of all households) where they do not have space to park on the road. Nothing to do with parking on someone else's driveway.

 

[AM9]

... I won't be tempted to buy an EV until there is a charging point at every parking space in my road.

That may be one condition you are considering but .... - If fuel becomes difficult to sorce or even if fuel costs rise significantly owing to reduced demand, for many, relying on an IC vehicle for personal travel may become inviable. Then there's the impact of critical spares items and the ability to keep IC vehicles roadworthy, plus the spreading of zero emission zones, primarily for health reasons, (although actual reasons are irrelevant to motorists once established).

 

[slowroad]

Dodgey argument there. If I had an EV does that mean I could park on someone else's driveway ?. Oh and that driveway would tend to be quite some distance from me. I won't be tempted to buy an EV until there is a charging point at every parking space in my road.

I bought an electric car and I don’t have off road parking. I charge either when at gym or supermarket - both have rapid chargers so only need to do it every couple of weeks. No problem. (I can see in nay be different in inner London and perhaps other big cities.) The main challenge remains long journeys. Motorway charge points can be occupied, with no organised queuing system, and coverage off motorways in rural areas can be poor. I think these are the main things that need to be sorted.

 

[paul1609]

I bought an electric car and I don’t have off road parking. I charge either when at gym or supermarket - both have rapid chargers so only need to do it every couple of weeks. No problem. (I can see in nay be different in inner London and perhaps other big cities.) The main challenge remains long journeys. Motorway charge points can be occupied, with no organised queuing system, and coverage off motorways in rural areas can be poor. I think these are the main things that need to be sorted.

If you are only charging every 2 weeks that suggests a sub 5000 miles pa,
that's around half the average for a new EV. Charging costs will accordingly be less significant for you.

 

[slowroad]

If you are only charging every 2 weeks that suggests a sub 5000 miles pa,
that's around half the average for a new EV. Charging costs will accordingly be less significant for you.

Big battery-at least 250 miles real world range in winter. 300 in summer. I do charge more frequently when on holiday. Probably around 8k miles a year. I think total cost of ownership for me a bit higher than an equivalent petrol car, but not much, and electric is much nicer to drive.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't see how you got that from my post at all. I was talking about households with multiple cars (34% of all households) where they do not have space to park on the road. Nothing to do with parking on someone else's driveway.

Fair enough. Plus is that, being electric, you are not starting an Internal Combustion Engine just for a minor manoeuvre. I was thinking more of people with no driveway where charging at all or very many spaces will be required.

That may be one condition you are considering but .... - If fuel becomes difficult to sorce or even if fuel costs rise significantly owing to reduced demand, for many, relying on an IC vehicle for personal travel may become inviable. Then there's the impact of critical spares items and the ability to keep IC vehicles roadworthy, plus the spreading of zero emission zones, primarily for health reasons, (although actual reasons are irrelevant to motorists once established).

I can see me being unable to have use of a car. That will be difficult but I do think we need to address the fact that the human race has become too reliant on being mobile.

I have pondered getting to the point where I just hire a car for the longer essential uses. But then I am back to the charging problem.

I walk and use public transport but I am beginning to want to use the car more. That is to get to nicer shops but also I feel more vulnerable on some buses - anti social behaviour is getting more noticeable but I am also more wary as buses now accelerate and brake too harshly.

As the owner of generally older cars I do find the availability of spares has become an issue more so than reliability.

I bought an electric car and I don’t have off road parking. I charge either when at gym or supermarket - both have rapid chargers so only need to do it every couple of weeks. No problem. (I can see in nay be different in inner London and perhaps other big cities.) The main challenge remains long journeys. Motorway charge points can be occupied, with no organised queuing system, and coverage off motorways in rural areas can be poor. I think these are the main things that need to be sorted.

I suppose I should view going somewhere to charge the car as like driving off to fill up with petrol the day before a long trip. Worst will be the much higher costs of charging in public places.

 

[AM9]

I have pondered getting to the point where I just hire a car for the longer essential uses. But then I am back to the charging problem. ...

... I suppose I should view going somewhere to charge the car as like driving off to fill up with petrol the day before a long trip. Worst will be the much higher costs of charging in public places.

If you hire a car for longer essential uses, I believe that when all hire cars are EVs and the hire market is competitive, there will be an option to receive the vehicle fully (or at least substantially) charged, maybe as an option, where the effective cost per KWh is well below the current high rates of rapid charging. You would then be in a simillar position to EV owners when they make long trips, i.e. the going charge rate at the remote end is the same.

I walk and use public transport but I am beginning to want to use the car more. That is to get to nicer shops but also I feel more vulnerable on some buses - anti social behaviour is getting more noticeable but I am also more wary as buses now accelerate and brake too harshly.

Public transport will have to be improved as a carrot to break the driving everywhere habit, (even if the right-wing freedom politicians object), and the £2 capped fare has demonstrated that the public can adapt especially when the combined 'nudge impact' of congestion, road charges and parking restrictions are included. A benefit of that will be that anti-social behaviour will be reduced - not just by enhanced surveillance but more by higher passenger loadings. Anti-social behaviour is far less prevalent on busy buses (and trains) despite 'bystander effects' from some of the public.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately, even if 34% of households without off-road parking means 34% of cars will have no access to off road parking, the electric vehicle switch will still happen regardless.

If car-related petroleum fuel use falls by two thirds, as previously noted, the petrol station infrastructure will collapse. Especially petrol stations that are not really suitable for HGV fueling, such as essentially all of them in urban areas.

People will be forced into electric cars because people without off road parking probably don't have space for petrol or diesel storage on their property (and the former is very expensive given the extensive safety measures required and limit of ~350 Litres). Consequently they won't even be able to fall back on a heating oil style delivery model.

I expect the result is that anyone in a terrace house (like myself) will simply resort to running extension leads from their house to their vehicle over the footway.

 

[jon0844]

Given most people can't top up petrol or diesel on their driveway, in their garage, or when parked on a public road, the switch to EVs can still happen even if people have to go somewhere to charge up like they do now with their ICE car.

A small, cheap, EV with a smallish battery isn't going to take long to charge up. Chargers are getting faster and there will be cars with faster charging support even at the lower end of the market. It might seem like a step backwards compared to the time to top up with petrol, but I am sure people will adapt and increasingly people will find places to charge where they can do something productive during that dead time (hence why more people will actually seek destination chargers than a traditional filling station environment).

The obvious issue is cost, and that's something the Government could look at - such that you might be able to charge at certain locations at a reduced rate to serve local communities. In theory with so many operators of charging stations, competition should already be bringing prices down but I fear there's going to be evidence found in the future months/years of price collusion and price fixing. Again, something regulators could look at (and should do!).

 

[HSTEd]

The obvious issue is cost, and that's something the Government could look at - such that you might be able to charge at certain locations at a reduced rate to serve local communities. In theory with so many operators of charging stations, competition should already be bringing prices down but I fear there's going to be evidence found in the future months/years of price collusion and price fixing. Again, something regulators could look at (and should do!).

The question is, of course, what the economic cost of operating a fast charger actually is.

Given the very high price of the charging equipment and the turn-up-and-go nature of charging, I'm not convinced that (price) gouging is occuring.
I really think the cheapest form of charging will always be off-peak charging with an extension lead, especially as most people really do not need more than this.

This is especially true if people install a 13A weatherproof or 16A 'Commando' Socket on the front of their house, probably switched from inside.

 

[paul1609]

The question is, of course, what the actual economic cost of operating a fast charger actually is.

Given the very high price of the charging equipment and the turn-up-and-go nature of charging, I'm not convinced that gouging is actually occuring.
I really think the cheapest form of charging will always be off-peak charging with an extension lead, especially as most people really do not need more than this.

This is especially true if people install a 13A weatherproof or 16A 'Commando' Socket on the front of their house, probably switched from inside.

I agree the current price is probably the economic price for fast charging plus a reasonable profit margin, plus or minus a few percent.
Assuming home pricing reverts to market led and the conversion of home heating to heat pumps plus grid and home battery systems take place I don't think that cheap overnight tariffs will exist as we know them in 5 or possibly 10 years time. Somebody is going to have to pay for the upgrading of the DNO networks which is going to cost trillions. I reckon ignoring inflation Octopus current 7 p will be 20 to 30 p in that time period.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given the very high price of the charging equipment and the turn-up-and-go nature of charging, I'm not convinced that gouging is actually occuring.

Forgive me for not knowing, but what does the word "gouging" (that has been emboldened above) mean?

 

[HSTEd]

Forgive me for not knowing, but what does the word "gouging" (that has been emboldened above) mean?

I was referring to the concept of "price gouging", where people take advantage of current circumstances to charge very large quantities for a good or service.

 

[AM9]

The question is, of course, what the economic cost of operating a fast charger actually is.

Given the very high price of the charging equipment and the turn-up-and-go nature of charging, I'm not convinced that gouging is occuring.
I really think the cheapest form of charging will always be off-peak charging with an extension lead, especially as most people really do not need more than this.

This is especially true if people install a 13A weatherproof or 16A 'Commando' Socket on the front of their house, probably switched from inside.

The high power chargers are (relatively) expensive because of their immaturity in design and the market that they are being delivered into. This plays into pricing at the moment. In the near future, the oil companies will somehow, need a replacement revenue for the sales of hydrocarbon fuels - it's not as if they can maintain business viability on plastics and petrochemicals because those are also under pressure because of micro-plastic contamination etc.. So one thread may be to provide cost effective on-demand charging at rates that are compatible with the majority of EVs on the roads.

The extension lead thing will need some amendment to legilation regarding obstruction of the public highway or specific provision to enable any temporary cable to reach a vehicle parked kerbside. 'People install' installing might be legislated to mean 'people to have professionally installed and certified'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==

Forgive me for not knowing, but what does the word "gouging" (that has been emboldened above) mean?

It's an Americanism for opportunistic overpricing of goods or a service.

 

[Bikeman78]

Here on the Kent Coast it's next to nothing. The council run charging points that take up a third of the car park in Tenterden remain empty except when they are occupied by dfls on day trips mostly at weekends, it's rare for the pod point in Tesco's to have more than one vehicle in the four bays. The only person I know locally with an electric car gets it through some Network Rail scheme. I was offered a grant of £12k to install a car charging point in the Wittersham Village Hall but that came no where near the cost of upgrading the power supply which is lv overhead throughout the village.

There aren't many to be seen around the larger estates in Cardiff. I expect the proportion will be rather greater in Cyncoed and Llandaf. The most common electric vehicles that pass my house are buses.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you hire a car for longer essential uses, I believe that when all hire cars are EVs and the hire market is competitive, there will be an option to receive the vehicle fully (or at least substantially) charged, maybe as an option, where the effective cost per KWh is well below the current high rates of rapid charging. You would then be in a simillar position to EV owners when they make long trips, i.e. the going charge rate at the remote end is the same.

I don't think hire companies will rent out cars with a full charge. I remember when ICE vehicles always came with a full tank and you were expected to bring it back full otherwise paying a premium for the hire companies' effort to fill up. Nowadays you pick up the car with whatever fuel is in it and are expected to bring it back with the same amount or more in. My last van hire was brand new and came with about ten miles range in the tank - it had only done 5 miles before me iirc.

The same will happen with EVs. Hire companies are not going to faff around charging vehicles - not even when it takes the same time and effort as fuelling an ICE.

Public transport will have to be improved as a carrot to break the driving everywhere habit, (even if the right-wing freedom politicians object), and the £2 capped fare has demonstrated that the public can adapt especially when the combined 'nudge impact' of congestion, road charges and parking restrictions are included. A benefit of that will be that anti-social behaviour will be reduced - not just by enhanced surveillance but more by higher passenger loadings. Anti-social behaviour is far less prevalent on busy buses (and trains) despite 'bystander effects' from some of the public.

Let us hope so. Living in London I use quite a few busy buses. What is still anti social is people playing loud music, Video phone calls, watching films or dubious videos (out load) and of course coughing and sneezing with no attempt to "catch it".

Given most people can't top up petrol or diesel on their driveway, in their garage, or when parked on a public road, the switch to EVs can still happen even if people have to go somewhere to charge up like they do now with their ICE car.

But it will take longer so there will need to be more EV charging points that there are petrol pumps.

A small, cheap, EV with a smallish battery isn't going to take long to charge up. Chargers are getting faster and there will be cars with faster charging support even at the lower end of the market. It might seem like a step backwards compared to the time to top up with petrol, but I am sure people will adapt and increasingly people will find places to charge where they can do something productive during that dead time (hence why more people will actually seek destination chargers than a traditional filling station environment).

For me it would be my local Morrisons where I could charge for about an hour. That means I would be driving there instead of walking and having to pay more than the home charge rate.

The obvious issue is cost, and that's something the Government could look at - such that you might be able to charge at certain locations at a reduced rate to serve local communities. In theory with so many operators of charging stations, competition should already be bringing prices down but I fear there's going to be evidence found in the future months/years of price collusion and price fixing. Again, something regulators could look at (and should do!).

It occurs t me that a lot of electricity supply infrastructure is going to need to be improved or supplemented. We are going to be weaned of gas central heating and that is a lot of extra electric power required. So electricity supply cost will have to increase. I see one temptation being to get rid of my standing charge for the gas supply but all my eggs will be in one basket then.

Think I will move to a new town or estate where perhaps the electricity supply infrastructure is new enough, always assuming it has been future proofed !. That would get rid of my terraced house that no one will want soon.

 

[miklcct]

Ultimately, even if 34% of households without off-road parking means 34% of cars will have no access to off road parking, the electric vehicle switch will still happen regardless.

If car-related petroleum fuel use falls by two thirds, as previously noted, the petrol station infrastructure will collapse. Especially petrol stations that are not really suitable for HGV fueling, such as essentially all of them in urban areas.

People will be forced into electric cars because people without off road parking probably don't have space for petrol or diesel storage on their property (and the former is very expensive given the extensive safety measures required and limit of ~350 Litres). Consequently they won't even be able to fall back on a heating oil style delivery model.

I expect the result is that anyone in a terrace house (like myself) will simply resort to running extension leads from their house to their vehicle over the footway.

How do you expect car owners living in high rise apartments to charge their car?

I don't think hire companies will rent out cars with a full charge. I remember when ICE vehicles always came with a full tank and you were expected to bring it back full otherwise paying a premium for the hire companies' effort to fill up. Nowadays you pick up the car with whatever fuel is in it and are expected to bring it back with the same amount or more in. My last van hire was brand new and came with about ten miles range in the tank - it had only done 5 miles before me iirc.

The same will happen with EVs. Hire companies are not going to faff around charging vehicles - not even when it takes the same time and effort as fuelling an ICE.

Let us hope so. Living in London I use quite a few busy buses. What is still anti social is people playing loud music, Video phone calls, watching films or dubious videos (out load) and of course coughing and sneezing with no attempt to "catch it".

But it will take longer so there will need to be more EV charging points that there are petrol pumps.

For me it would be my local Morrisons where I could charge for about an hour. That means I would be driving there instead of walking and having to pay more than the home charge rate.

It occurs t me that a lot of electricity supply infrastructure is going to need to be improved or supplemented. We are going to be weaned of gas central heating and that is a lot of extra electric power required. So electricity supply cost will have to increase. I see one temptation being to get rid of my standing charge for the gas supply but all my eggs will be in one basket then.

Think I will move to a new town or estate where perhaps the electricity supply infrastructure is new enough, always assuming it has been future proofed !. That would get rid of my terraced house that no one will want soon.

My expectation is that electric hire cars are parked in car parks with permanent charging. This is the way how a car club works, therefore there must be a time gap between the previous return and the next hire for electric cars, for the charge to return to a reasonable level.

 

[AM9]

ave to increase. I see one temptation being to get rid of my standing charge for the gas supply but all my eggs will be in one basket then.

Think I will move to a new town or estate where perhaps the electricity supply infrastructure is new enough, always assuming it has been future proofed !. That would get rid of my terraced house that no one will want soon.

In practice, the advent of private battery storage, either as part of a solar installation or as an EV which has vehicle-to-grid capability with mitigate much of the need to reinforce the maximum capacity of local supply infrastructure. The current position is that almost all normal domestic premises have a 100A capable supply that can supply 23kW of power. Diversity rules are applied that allows a significant number of consumers to draw on that power for which the DNO provides high voltage connections the the national grid. The availability of batteries within residential areas allows them to export some of their stored energy back into the local street connection which reduces the power required from the grid. Thus the grid connections do not need reinforcement to levels that simple multiplying the projected household increase imply. You may ask why should owners of battery stores export to support the supply to others? Well already, there are several domestic supply tariffs that encourage such an act by supplying energy during low demand periods, e.g. overnight, at low cost, and offering a higher 'buyback' price during the late afternoon/early evening periods. This benefits both consumers and suppliers and reduces the need for supply distribution upgrading. It is alredy mandatory for all new EV chargers to have a variable start delay that is randomly applied in order that surges are minimised. I expect that with the rapid introduction of IoT connected domestic products that energy legislation may require heavy loads e.g. water heaters, washing and dishwashing equipment etc., to be controllable such that short delays of interruptions allow the supply to stay within limits. The rest will be down to aggressive variations in energy costs at peak times, much like commercial premises are becoming accustomed to.