UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[PeterC]

To be fair the Leaf is about the worst-designed EV. Very often the first is the worst (!) - no time to develop the tech.

In a totally different field of course but the company that I worked for on the 70s claimed internally that it was the most successful in the sector because it did everything second without the mistakes.

 

[E27007]

If only one cell has failed you simply don't bother, you let the car's software map it out.

The battery , is it a serial chain of cells, surely a faulty cell can only be physically disconnected and bypassed from the circuit, please explain how software can map out a faulty cell

 

[Ediswan]

The battery , is it a serial chain of cells, surely a faulty cell can only be physically disconnected and bypassed from the circuit, please explain how software can map out a faulty cell

I don't know for sure, but I suspect there are software controled solid state swiches within the battery pack.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Makes me suspect that newer cars have harder to get at battery cells if heating and/or cooling equipment needs getting out of the way as well.

Depends on the design. BMW i3 puts the modules on top of a direct expansion cooling plate. Munro has pleanty of teardown videos if you are interested in traction battery design.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2024 ==

I don't know for sure, but I suspect there are software controled solid state swiches within the battery pack.

LEAF has shunts for balancing, but no way of bypassing a faulty cell or module. You can see which module is low voltage, but there isn't anyway to bypass it. It was an early low cost design.

 

[Snow1964]

The Citroën e-C3 will retail for £21,990.

The C3 is already a ridiculously popular and successful car, and I expect this is going to revolutionise the EV market. No brad snobbery to affect it (Dacia Spring), and it's a car built in Europe by a European brand so will have better optics now everyone seems to be against China.

Looks like more competition in the small electric car is coming.

We already know about Dacia Spring, Hyundai Inster, Renault 5, Cupra Raval, Volkswagen ID2, Fiat Grande Panda, Alfa Romeo Junior etc. Now it appears Stelliantis (owners of Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat, Jeep, Vauxhall etc) are going to make Leapmotor T03 in Poland

Leapmotor T03 review | Auto Express

New Leapmotor T03 electric city car comes with an attractive price tag, impressive range, plenty of equipment and it's decent to drive

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Apparently about third of cars in UK are supermini size. And many are aging because manufacturers upsized their ranges and ignored this sector for last 5 or 6 years.

 

[jon0844]

Not least Ford who since allowing Ford USA to dictate to all markets ditched the Fiesta, claiming it couldn't make a profitable small car. This being said as battery prices were falling massively.

Now I await Ford realising that it's a big car maker and should be able to find a way to continue making a car it has built for decades and was often one of the best selling cars in markets that don't have everyone wanting to drive a pick up to haul around their AR 15s.

Small cars have always been popular here, not least because we have smaller roads and higher petrol prices, and a small and light EV can go further with less. Lower speeds means more efficiency too. It's a no brainer, but the big car markers stuck to building the big cars with the big toys and the big batteries and the huge price tags. Just as people are driving less distances annually.

 

[birchesgreen]

Ooh i didn't know there was a new electric Renault 5, now that does look pretty sweet.

 

[jon0844]

Ooh i didn't know there was a new electric Renault 5, now that does look pretty sweet.

I saw it at St Pancras and fell in love with it. It was LHD but there are now RHD models being seeded to the media and I hope it will be at Everything Electric South in a couple of weeks.

I will be leasing and have pretty much decided this is my next car. The problem is demand is already high and so I expect lease prices will reflect this.

They say to shop the deal, not the car. And my desire to get this car means I'll probably ignore that very sensible advice. But it's early days yet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not least Ford who since allowing Ford USA to dictate to all markets ditched the Fiesta, claiming it couldn't make a profitable small car. This being said as battery prices were falling massively.

Now I await Ford realising that it's a big car maker and should be able to find a way to continue making a car it has built for decades and was often one of the best selling cars in markets that don't have everyone wanting to drive a pick up to haul around their AR 15s.

Small cars have always been popular here, not least because we have smaller roads and higher petrol prices, and a small and light EV can go further with less. Lower speeds means more efficiency too. It's a no brainer, but the big car markers stuck to building the big cars with the big toys and the big batteries and the huge price tags. Just as people are driving less distances annually.

Irony is that small cars from about twenty years ago (Fiat 500, mini) are so much larger in their new versions. When I first had a Vauxhall Carlton in 1999 I could find it easily in the car park as it was a bit higher than most other cars. Granted SUVs are a lot more common BUT even a new mini was higher !.

We could be so much more economical (both ICE and EV) if cars were still as small as they used to be.

 

[birchesgreen]

Irony is that small cars from about twenty years ago (Fiat 500, mini) are so much larger in their new versions.

Yes thats true, a couple of years ago my sis-in-law bought a new car. "Nice Astra" i said to much confusion, oh it was a Corsa. Blimey thats a bit bigger than the one i drive during some of my lessons a couple of decades ago...

 

[jon0844]

Irony is that small cars from about twenty years ago (Fiat 500, mini) are so much larger in their new versions. When I first had a Vauxhall Carlton in 1999 I could find it easily in the car park as it was a bit higher than most other cars. Granted SUVs are a lot more common BUT even a new mini was higher !.

We could be so much more economical (both ICE and EV) if cars were still as small as they used to be.

Due to safety regulations, I am not sure we could go back to the first generation small cars or something like the classic Mini but we absolutely need smaller cars. Ford could easily create a modern Fiesta and even make a Ka version if it put its mind to it. 25-30kWh battery, 150 miles, in base form. Ideal for city dwellers or a second car, and a small battery needs a quarter of the electricity to charge as a 100+ kWh battery in a heavy monster.

If small cars hadn't been top ten sellers for decades you could questions my assumption but the data doesn't lie. Yes some people have gone for SUVs and crossovers, more for fashion than anything else, but not everyone as you can see from all the other small A and B segment cars from other manufacturers.

I honestly don't know a single Ford owner on my road from when I go out on walks. And as every new number plate revision is released there will be someone with a new electric car parked up. And it isn't a Ford either.

I went over 20 years of my life never owning anything but a Ford.

 

[RuddA]

We have owned Ford cars for the past 14 years.
A Puma which is a little longer and wider than my wife's previous Fiesta but she finds it far easier to drive and get in and out of.
The other is a new Explorer EV. A lovely car to drive. Just driven 15 miles, part on an A road and part into the city, at an average of 4.5m/kwh. Haven't need to worry about the range at all in the two weeks I've owned it.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Due to safety regulations, I am not sure we could go back to the first generation small cars or something like the classic Mini but we absolutely need smaller cars. Ford could easily create a modern Fiesta and even make a Ka version if it put its mind to it. 25-30kWh battery, 150 miles, in base form. Ideal for city dwellers or a second car, and a small battery needs a quarter of the electricity to charge as a 100+ kWh battery in a heavy monster.

If small cars hadn't been top ten sellers for decades you could questions my assumption but the data doesn't lie. Yes some people have gone for SUVs and crossovers, more for fashion than anything else, but not everyone as you can see from all the other small A and B segment cars from other manufacturers.

I honestly don't know a single Ford owner on my road from when I go out on walks. And as every new number plate revision is released there will be someone with a new electric car parked up. And it isn't a Ford either.

I went over 20 years of my life never owning anything but a Ford.

The argument that you need a larger car to meet safety requirements doesn't really make sense because manufacturers keep introducing new small models
For example: Toyota has substantially increased the size of the Yaris but have then introduced the Aygo which is the same size of the Mk1 Yaris

 

[jon0844]

The argument that you need a larger car to meet safety requirements doesn't really make sense because manufacturers keep introducing new small models
For example: Toyota has substantially increased the size of the Yaris but have then introduced the Aygo which is the same size of the Mk1 Yaris

There are other ways to make a vehicle safer, on the assumption that it's better not to be in an accident at all. So you have things like automatic braking, lane keep assist and so on.

You can design a small car to be quite safe, but as you add more things you use up space and it can compromise the internal space and boot space. Hence why cars have got bigger generally.

The Leapmotor T03 does look like a pretty decent small car, but I'm not sure its safety rating has been issued yet. It could certainly sell even better than the Dacia Spring given the specs, although Stellantis probably needs to consider rebranding it a little to use a more recognisable name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The argument that you need a larger car to meet safety requirements doesn't really make sense because manufacturers keep introducing new small models
For example: Toyota has substantially increased the size of the Yaris but have then introduced the Aygo which is the same size of the Mk1 Yaris

That's model inflation which is a different thing - it allows people to "always have Focuses", say, but the Focus grows as their family does and so needs a bigger car. Every now and then you insert a new small car at the bottom.

Modern cars are generally wider than older ones, though, due to the need for side impact protection (which is about protecting them from being hit by other vehicles so anti collision tech doesn't compensate).

 

[dcbwhaley]

Modern cars are generally wider than older ones, though, due to the need for side impact protection (which is about protecting them from being hit by other vehicles so anti collision tech doesn't compensate).

The width of modern cars is increased substantially by the wing mirrors. A problem made worse by the fact that those are so vulnerable and expensive to replace that most drivers need to give an extra foot of clearance to protect them.

The technology exists to replace wing mirror's with rear facing cameras. Or are the manufacturers unwilling to forego the income generated by selling replacement wing mirrors?

 

[JamesT]

The width of modern cars is increased substantially by the wing mirrors. A problem made worse by the fact that those are so vulnerable and expensive to replace that most drivers need to give an extra foot of clearance to protect them.

The technology exists to replace wing mirror's with rear facing cameras. Or are the manufacturers unwilling to forego the income generated by selling replacement wing mirrors?

There’s some out there with cameras. I noticed the new electric buses in Oxford don’t have wing mirrors. I believe they aren’t legal in the US which may be deterring some manufacturers as they’d have to produce different models for the different regulations. Also whether drivers are comfortable with the different view you get.

 

[Bald Rick]

The width of modern cars is increased substantially by the wing mirrors. A problem made worse by the fact that those are so vulnerable and expensive to replace that most drivers need to give an extra foot of clearance to protect them.

The technology exists to replace wing mirror's with rear facing cameras. Or are the manufacturers unwilling to forego the income generated by selling replacement wing mirrors?

A decent fraction of new HGVs have cameras instead of wing mirrors. I presume the case for those was made on aerodynamics over the vehicle life + average replacement costs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That's model inflation which is a different thing - it allows people to "always have Focuses", say, but the Focus grows as their family does and so needs a bigger car. Every now and then you insert a new small car at the bottom.

Modern cars are generally wider than older ones, though, due to the need for side impact protection (which is about protecting them from being hit by other vehicles so anti collision tech doesn't compensate).

It is why parking in car parks is getting harder and harder. The spaces have not got wider and I find sometimes I have great difficulty getting my long legs in when someone in a monster has parked next to me.

A decent fraction of new HGVs have cameras instead of wing mirrors. I presume the case for those was made on aerodynamics over the vehicle life + average replacement costs.

Likewise coaches. I am noticing more coaches with a camera at the back (which is better than a mirror looking down the whole length of the coach) and a camera each side presumably with no blind spot.

Blind spots in wing mirrors can be really bad even nowadays. I hired a van in August (Citroen Dispatch) that was only 5 miles old !. Dreadful blind spot and of course no windows on the left/rear to make turning round and looking fruitful. The equivalent EV was probably the same.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Likewise coaches. I am noticing more coaches with a camera at the back (which is better than a mirror looking down the whole length of the coach) and a camera each side presumably with no blind spot.

Blind spots in wing mirrors can be really bad even nowadays. I hired a van in August (Citroen Dispatch) that was only 5 miles old !. Dreadful blind spot and of course no windows on the left/rear to make turning round and looking fruitful. The equivalent EV was probably the same.

The downside with cameras in place of wing mirrors, is that they only work for the driver. With a mirror, other more vulnerable road users can see that they've been seen because mirrors work both ways.

Yet another example of newfangled technology being worse than the low-tech solution that worked for decades. I believe the term is "En[word for excrement that rhymes with "bit"]tification".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2024 ==

The width of modern cars is increased substantially by the wing mirrors. A problem made worse by the fact that those are so vulnerable and expensive to replace that most drivers need to give an extra foot of clearance to protect them.

The technology exists to replace wing mirror's with rear facing cameras. Or are the manufacturers unwilling to forego the income generated by selling replacement wing mirrors?

Whenever I, or anyone else I know, talks about the with of cars they disregard the wing-mirrors, especially as on many modern cars these fold inwards when the car is parked so only add a couple of inches either side to the overall width. Cars certainly have got wider though, the "new" (now nearing 25 years old!) Mini is wider than a Volvo V50 or a Vectra from the same era.

However if anyone can't get into a parking space without bashing their mirror, they probably need to think about whether driving is right for them.

 

[En]

I don't know anyone who drives "further to find somewhere to refill". I certainly don't. I refill at somewhere en-route to a destination, or at my local supermarket on the same visit as buying groceries. Goodness knows where they found the space for those 40,000 petrol stations in 1950, I guess there were village shops with a pump outside, and every repair workshop had one too (there is still one like that near me). Petrol stations, bigger now, nevertheless appear to be everywhere today, unless you are in the wilds of Scotland but I guess that was the case in 1950 too.

I am disappointed that the EV policy revolves around in-car charging. It should have been based on battery swapping which could be done at wayside stations in a couple of minutes (like petrol refilling) in automated drive-through changing bays, the batteries being re-charged out the back. People with driveways could additionally charge at home, so there would be the best of both worlds. I'd get an EV like a shot if we had wayside battery swapping, but as it is I'll wait and see.

Before someone says you need to break the journey anyway, I agree, but I don't want to break my journey at grotty crowded and expensive-to-eat places that wayside recharging stations will be, together with all the "charger rage" which will become an increasing problem as EVs become more popular.

30 years ago the closest Filling station was in the village approximately a mile away , now the closest filling stations are at a tesco store some 3 or so miles away and a filling station / general store similar distance in a nearby village which also has an RAF station ( so a boosted population as well as fuelcard traffic from spot hire vehicles that can't use the on-base POL facilities)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whenever I, or anyone else I know, talks about the with of cars they disregard the wing-mirrors, especially as on many modern cars these fold inwards when the car is parked so only add a couple of inches either side to the overall width. Cars certainly have got wider though, the "new" (now nearing 25 years old!) Mini is wider than a Volvo V50 or a Vectra from the same era.

Largely because of side impact protection. One of the narrowest cars I've had was a Land Rover Defender - that has the side impact protection of a roll of Tesco Value tin foil.

However if anyone can't get into a parking space without bashing their mirror, they probably need to think about whether driving is right for them.

I've only knocked a mirror once when passing a car on a very narrow road in a car I'd only just got so wasn't used to its width (and it wasn't enough to damage it, it just folded it in). Knocking them when parking is just incompetent, though it doesn't help that some driving instructors don't tell you to use them when reversing (as well as looking back). Makes it so much easier to reverse into a very narrow gap (or to judge it's too narrow) if you use both wing mirrors.

 

[En]

It is why parking in car parks is getting harder and harder. The spaces have not got wider and I find sometimes I have great difficulty getting my long legs in when someone in a monster has parked next to me.

Likewise coaches. I am noticing more coaches with a camera at the back (which is better than a mirror looking down the whole length of the coach) and a camera each side presumably with no blind spot.

Blind spots in wing mirrors can be really bad even nowadays. I hired a van in August (Citroen Dispatch) that was only 5 miles old !. Dreadful blind spot and of course no windows on the left/rear to make turning round and looking fruitful. The equivalent EV was probably the same.

did the van have dual pane mirrors ? or do you need the next size up to get that rather than just bigger than a car wide angle mirrors ... ?
cameras are very useful

cars are by and large wider and longer than they were, this the price ot pay for much improved survivability where people walk away realtviely unscathed from collisions that would have killed them even 30 -40 years ago

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cameras are useful but the downside of them is that they're not in 3D, unlike looking in a mirror with both eyes. I think for a car, aside from reversing cameras which can be handy (though I'm yet to own a car with them, and am also yet to reverse into anything), I'd rather mirrors. I'm sure it'll come, though.

 

[E27007]

The argument that you need a larger car to meet safety requirements doesn't really make sense because manufacturers keep introducing new small models
For example: Toyota has substantially increased the size of the Yaris but have then introduced the Aygo which is the same size of the Mk1 Yaris

I visited a Dacia showroom to view the Dacia Spring ZEV, the showroom has a left-hand-drive car for display.
The driving position is strange , the driver's seat places the occupant extremely close to the B-pillar, so close to the occupant, I actually struck my shoulder against the pillar, those who are medium to broad across the shoulders are going to struggle with the car, there is no padding on the B-pillar, and yes, it hurt!

 

[Peter Sarf]

did the van have dual pane mirrors ? or do you need the next size up to get that rather than just bigger than a car wide angle mirrors ... ?
cameras are very useful

cars are by and large wider and longer than they were, this the price ot pay for much improved survivability where people walk away realtviely unscathed from collisions that would have killed them even 30 -40 years ago

Single pane mirrors and as far as I can recall flat not wide angle. Amazing as even my 1993 Carlton came with wide angle mirrors. Yes it was probably a basic model van. I was acutely aware of how poor the visibility was.

There is a risk that the camera version fails with time. As @Bletchleyite says there is no chance of determining whether you are in the drivers blind spot. Further more unable to guess from outside what the driver is doing (or thinking of doing) which I do find a little unnerving (also true with tinted windows).

 

[Bikeman78]

The downside with cameras in place of wing mirrors, is that they only work for the driver. With a mirror, other more vulnerable road users can see that they've been seen because mirrors work both ways.

Yet another example of newfangled technology being worse than the low-tech solution that worked for decades. I believe the term is "En[word for excrement that rhymes with "bit"]tification".

That's a good point. If I can see the lorry driver's eyes in the mirror, they should be able to see me. The switch to cameras on HGVs seems to have been quite rapid. On a recent motorway trip, almost every lorry had cameras rather than mirrors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a good point. If I can see the lorry driver's eyes in the mirror, they should be able to see me. The switch to cameras on HGVs seems to have been quite rapid. On a recent motorway trip, almost every lorry had cameras rather than mirrors.

While I don't think we're there yet, the move to cameras should end us up with totally blind-spot-less HGVs and PCVs, which is an improvement over that. The cameras so far are mostly just drop in replacements offering a field of vision similar to mirrors, but whether through legislation* or just technical development that will change, and I suspect quickly.

* I'd expect London to be first in mandating all HGVs to have a means of viewing all-round when driving.

 

[Krokodil]

While I don't think we're there yet, the move to cameras should end us up with totally blind-spot-less HGVs and PCVs, which is an improvement over that. The cameras so far are mostly just drop in replacements offering a field of vision similar to mirrors, but whether through legislation* or just technical development that will change, and I suspect quickly.

* I'd expect London to be first in mandating all HGVs to have a means of viewing all-round when driving.

The loss of the ability to get eye contact and be sure that you've been seen is still a step back though, even if the wider field of vision is a gain.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

While I don't think we're there yet, the move to cameras should end us up with totally blind-spot-less HGVs and PCVs, which is an improvement over that. The cameras so far are mostly just drop in replacements offering a field of vision similar to mirrors, but whether through legislation* or just technical development that will change, and I suspect quickly.

* I'd expect London to be first in mandating all HGVs to have a means of viewing all-round when driving.

Until they are able to eliminate the blind-spot (which is undoubtedly a noble aim) what exactly is the advantage of using cameras rather than mirrors? Unless it offers an improved field of vision all it is is another point of failure.