UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[HSTEd]

Overnight charging with a 3kW charger could easily provide 20kWh per night, that's something like 60+ miles for a Nissan Leaf.

 

[jon0844]

Overnight charging with a 3kW charger could easily provide 20kWh per night, that's something like 60+ miles for a Nissan Leaf.

I expect home chargers are going to get a lot cheaper over time, and the main cost will of course be the fitting - which for some people in newish homes with the meters outside their front door (and the electrical cabinet inside likely being very close) is going to be a very simple job. I can't see why it wouldn't end up being nearer £200-300 for one, as against up to £1k as now*.

Obviously new homes have that work done already, making it even easier and cheaper.

* I do think there's an element of price exaggeration by companies that offer 'free' fitting when you buy a car, and want to make it seem like you're getting something worth far more than it is.

 

[dcbwhaley]

No, because there's no more sure fire way to burn money than taking your car to a dealership for servicing.


I do more like 12,000 miles a year so my savings are considerably more substantial on servicing and fuel costs

Hire for holidays isn't practical because we always take our bikes so we need a vehicle with a bicycle carrier and I have never seen a hire car withy nthat

2K miles per year is a very low mileage, almost to the point that one could argue car ownership not to be worthwhile at all if some local journeys can be substituted with bicycle or bus/train/tram (taxis for everything would be costly). If most local journeys aren't done by car and that's just a few holiday type trips, hire would be better, almost certainly.

Average mileage is nearer 10K.

Whilst I do as many local journeys as possible by bus/train there are times when the convenience of a car is important: going to entertaining in the evenings, lugging heavy loads around; family emergencies.

We aways take our e-bikes on holiday so need a car with a bicycle carrier. That is not something that you can hire

 

[Peter Sarf]

2K miles per year is a very low mileage, almost to the point that one could argue car ownership not to be worthwhile at all if some local journeys can be substituted with bicycle or bus/train/tram (taxis for everything would be costly). If most local journeys aren't done by car and that's just a few holiday type trips, hire would be better, almost certainly.

Average mileage is nearer 10K.

That is really what I do.

For short journeys the car is only necessary if I am carrying something large (potentially on the roof). I did use the car for the commute to work because the unreliability of the two busses in the morning (one was the first bus) was grinding me down. I do use the bus or walk rather more than a lot of people are prepared to.

For longer journeys many are by coach. The main core route is Victoria to/from Cardiff.

My principle long car journey is my favourite music festival. I have hired a van a long way in advance so as to make packing VERY easy. With an excess of £2,000 (bit worrying) I got 5 x 24 hours for £155. A fraction of the ownership costs (road tax, insurance, maintenance & depeciation) of a car. I would be prepared to try an EV BUT there are no chargers in the field at the destination !.

A car I own is however a lot more "available".

For me the low annual mileage that I do makes fuel costs irrelevant.

I haven‘t, yet, as I absolutely detest buying cars almost as much as I detest selling them.

Also, I ideally want to wait another year or so for more big discounts (which are coming).

However Mrs BR is getting twitchy, so investigations are underway.

Oh yes. Once I have plucked up the courage to buy a car I intend to keep it for as long as possible.

Always used, as buying a brand new car is the greatest act of philanthropy an ‘ordinary’ person can do, essentially giving the second owner a huge discount.

And whilst I have never bought new in the DVLA sense, I have bought 2 cars with delivery mileage only!

I am that second (or third) user !. By then the foibles of the design should be apparent thus influencing my choice. In the case of EVs, one day EV technology will have matured enough for me to judge the relatively good ones.

I hope so. European manufacturers are taking the absolute mick on prices at the moment - I mean a new Vauxhall Astra is nearly £40K, it should really be not much more than half that. They need to get their house in order and get list prices well down, and stop hiding behind leases and PCPs as a way of getting away with truly ridiculous pricing.

Protectionism is not the solution here.

Your post makes it occur to me that I want to buy a second hand ICE in the hope that it lasts long enough that the UK wil have become well populated with cheap EVs (or I will be too old to drive anyway).

In reality I think we are going to see a decline in car ownership hopefully due to the attractiveness of public transport BUT more likely because cars are becoming out of reach for many.

What price for a mobile workforce ?.

 

[paul1609]

Overnight charging with a 3kW charger could easily provide 20kWh per night, that's something like 60+ miles for a Nissan Leaf.

It wont (at least not in the off peak hours) because the 13A charger supplied with a Nissan Leaf limits current draw to 10 Amps and is on average only around 80% efficient meter to car battery. In practise my company Leafs usually achieved around 15 to 17 KW in the 7 hours of edfs economy 7. There are aftermarket granny chargers that do draw 13A but I was concerned about drawing 13 A continuously on the long cable to my garage, especially as the alternative was the company paying for public charging. In reality when the off peak electricity period shifts for BST I had normally left home well before 8.30 am so the off peak charge was sufficient for a return trip to Staplehurst station (30 miles ish) and not a lot more. In reality unless you are doing very short trips you have to charge through the peak periods (28pkwh currently on EDF). This is still a lot cheaper than petrol but it may not be the magnitude of savings that some people are advocating.

 

[Ediswan]

It wont (at least not in the off peak hours) because the 13A charger supplied with a Nissan Leaf limits current draw to 10 Amps

I believe that is true of all EV chargers with a 13A plug. Happy to be shown a counter-example (from a reputable supplier).

 

[Bletchleyite]

We aways take our e-bikes on holiday so need a car with a bicycle carrier. That is not something that you can hire

You can own a bicycle carrier and fit it to a hire car, of course.

 

[Krokodil]

You can own a bicycle carrier and fit it to a hire car, of course.

Depends on what sort of carrier you've got and whether it can be fitted easily to different models. The one my dad uses sits onto bracket that mounts on the towbar. Obviously that type can't just be swapped from car to car without some time with a spanner (even assuming that the hire car has a towbar). I'm not sure that roof racks are easily transferable either.

 

[Ediswan]

You can own a bicycle carrier and fit it to a hire car, of course.

If the hire company permits it.
Also, may need a lighting board, which means a suitable socket on the vehicle and the correct number plate.

 

[paul1609]

I believe that is true of all EV chargers with a 13A plug. Happy to be shown a counter-example (from a reputable supplier).

I believe that Nissan @10 Amps is probably the highest of the actual car manufacturers (some I believe are limited to 6 or 8 Amps), my experience wasnt of the current leaf but the fact that Nissan are in their current official documentation specifying 21 hours to charge the 39 Kwh battery on a normal socket (they suggest it should be a specified socket checked by an electrician) suggests that nothing much has changed. That may be okay for someone who lives in a city driving a couple of miles to work or a station but it only has limited practicality for someone like me living in a rural area where theres next to no public transport and the nearest A&E or Station is 30 miles + return trip.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Hire for holidays isn't practical because we always take our bikes so we need a vehicle with a bicycle carrier and I have never seen a hire car withy nthat

Whilst I do as many local journeys as possible by bus/train there are times when the convenience of a car is important: going to entertaining in the evenings, lugging heavy loads around; family emergencies.

We aways take our e-bikes on holiday so need a car with a bicycle carrier. That is not something that you can hire

Depends on what sort of carrier you've got and whether it can be fitted easily to different models. The one my dad uses sits onto bracket that mounts on the towbar. Obviously that type can't just be swapped from car to car without some time with a spanner (even assuming that the hire car has a towbar). I'm not sure that roof racks are easily transferable either.

My carrier is bolted to the plate behind the tow bar, Moving it to another car involves removing two 16mm bolts torqued to over 200nM. Not a trivial task.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My carrier is bolted to the plate behind the tow bar, Moving it to another car involves removing two 16mm bolts torqued to over 200nM. Not a trivial task.

Or you hire a crew van - the bikes can go in the back!

Or hire bikes.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Or you hire a crew van - the bikes can go in the back!

Or hire bikes.

The hidden lifestyle costs of "going EV"...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The hidden lifestyle costs of "going EV"...

This was a suggestion that someone doing 2K miles a year doesn't need to own any car.

A bicycle rack can be fitted to an EV - why wouldn't it?

 

[Sun Chariot]

This was a suggestion that someone doing 2K miles a year doesn't need to own any car.

A bicycle rack can be fitted to an EV - why wouldn't it?

I was musing the irony of having own bikes and own car but then hiring other bikes as a direct consequence of hiring an EV.

I'm still swooning at the US's Lucid Air. Sadly, the 510 mile range GT isn't coming to the UK market; and - even if it did - there's no way I'll raid my pension pot for its £117k purchase price...

 

[bspahh]

I was musing the irony of having own bikes and own car but then hiring other bikes as a direct consequence of hiring an EV.

I'm still swooning at the US's Lucid Air. Sadly, the 510 mile range GT isn't coming to the UK market; and - even if it did - there's no way I'll raid my pension pot for its £117k purchase price...

You can get an 11 month old Fisker with a 440 mile range for £24350
https://www.stebbings.co.uk/used/cars/fisker

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice/bargain-or-burden-truth-about-buying-fisker-ocean says

after 5 April anyone purchasing an Ocean did so in the knowledge that the vehicle’s warranty and all claims they might have for its material defects were permanently unenforceable.
[snip]
Remarkably, throughout this turbulent period, UK car buyers have continued to purchase new and used Oceans. Among the online clubs supporting the model is Fisker Ocean Owners UK. Members have posted reports of software updates, some of them successful. Older posts reference cars being plagued with teething problems, some serious. Fisker’s two mobile technical teams attract praise but their future with the firm is unknown.

In spite of its problems, Fisker has appointed an agent in the south-east whose role is to demonstrate the cars and forward expressions of interest to the firm. In the four weeks since it acquired the agent, EV Experts – an EV dealer based in Guildford and Hook – claims to have hosted up to two Ocean test drives per day.

 

[Noddy]

I'm still swooning at the US's Lucid Air. Sadly, the 510 mile range GT isn't coming to the UK market; and - even if it did - there's no way I'll raid my pension pot for its £117k purchase price...

I’m not sure that Lucid have made any announcements on bringing the Air to the UK/RHD markets at all? My understanding is it’s more likely that they’ll be bringing the cheaper and more sellable Gravity (an SUV) when they launch in RHD markets. It still has a big range but is an SUV (urgh).

 

[Sun Chariot]

I’m not sure that Lucid have made any announcements on bringing the Air to the UK/RHD markets at all? My understanding is it’s more likely that they’ll be bringing the cheaper and more sellable Gravity (an SUV) when they launch in RHD markets. It still has a big range but is an SUV (urgh).

I think the lesser-range variants will be offered in some European countries - it might tempt keen UK buyers to import?
I share your sentiment re: SUVs

 

[skyhigh]

I noticed in Hatfield station car park, which Grant Shapps proudly used to announce a large number of EV charging bays on one of the higher levels (I can't remember if this was also around the time that we got the green number plates launched?), has removed over half of them and seemingly reverted them to normal spaces. Earlier this year, they went from free charging (which was fantastic for commuters who could offset the parking charge by getting their vehicle charged up after a full day) to being chargeable, so I am quite surprised to see this.

Recently visited another GTR station, which used to have 4x 22kW chargers. They have now been replaced by a new provider but only with 7kW chargers (which is sensible enough as hardly any cars charge at 22kW and most people left their cars there all day so speed was irrelevant).

Looking online Hatfield has also swapped from PodPoint to APCOA charging so I suspect GTR have used the contract renewal as an opportunity to cut costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In settings where cars are left there all day, why not just as many 13A chargers as possible?

 

[jon0844]

In settings where cars are left there all day, why not just as many 13A chargers as possible?

I do wonder this. At Hatfield most bays were filled during the morning rush hour and I'd assume stayed on charge until 5pm or later. So absolutely no need for fast charging at all.

Far cheaper to offer 1-2kWh on multiple bays, especially so you can park anywhere. In Scandinavia car parks outside have had sockets for decades for car heaters. Maybe they were nearer 500W or even less, but I still don't think the power demands would be that significant if a car park has 300 or 400 spaces. You would presumably load balance them all, so should every bay have an EV plugged in the speed might drop - but how likely is that when they're not free anymore so many EV owners wouldn't use them anyway.

 

[InkyScrolls]

If EVs prevent you taking such a dangerous action as driving four hours with no break, then that is a very good outcome indeed.

Off topic of course... But train drivers are very much expected to be able to drive for four hours without a break!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off topic of course... But train drivers are very much expected to be able to drive for four hours without a break!

Train drivers are professionals, selected for their role and highly trained, and typically not having done something else all day first. Though I do think that's quite a long time and am slightly less than convinced that it is appropriate - if nothing else 4 hours requires a very strong bladder (or unhealthy and potentially dangerous dehydration).

Private car drivers are none of those things. About two hours is probably the most they should do without a break.

 

[jon0844]

Off topic of course... But train drivers are very much expected to be able to drive for four hours without a break!

But what else is on their diagram in relation to breaks (beyond a standard PNB) or even doing that and being done?

Plus that's the job. They don't generally drive four hours to get to work and back home after work. Indeed they must live within a fixed distance or their depot.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Train drivers are professionals, selected for their role and highly trained, and typically not having done something else all day first. Though I do think that's quite a long time and am slightly less than convinced that it is appropriate - if nothing else 4 hours requires a very strong bladder (or unhealthy and potentially dangerous dehydration).

Or a bottle! I certainly couldn't last four hours without the little driver's room.

Private car drivers are none of those things. About two hours is probably the most they should do without a break.

Definitely. For the sake of ten minutes it's not worth not stopping.

But what else is on their diagram in relation to breaks (beyond a standard PNB) or even doing that and being done?

It varies hugely. I've often wondered how Wick drivers manage; it's four and a half hours to Inverness, and after a break they have to drive back again...

Plus that's the job. They don't generally drive four hours to get to work and back home after work. Indeed they must live within a fixed distance or their depot.

Some companies allow you to live up to an hour away from the depot - personally I think that's a bit far; I live half an hour away and that's bad enough after a gruelling late shift.

 

[paul1609]

Recently visited another GTR station, which used to have 4x 22kW chargers. They have now been replaced by a new provider but only with 7kW chargers (which is sensible enough as hardly any cars charge at 22kW and most people left their cars there all day so speed was irrelevant).

Looking online Hatfield has also swapped from PodPoint to APCOA charging so I suspect GTR have used the contract renewal as an opportunity to cut costs.

Does anybody actually use the chargers? I was at Barnham on a saturday recently and the charger spaces were in use as a rail replacement bus marshalling area. I cant really see that anybodies going to regularly charge at 65p/Kwh thats the same fuel cost per mile as my Hi Lux Pickup.

 

[jon0844]

Does anybody actually use the chargers? I was at Barnham on a saturday recently and the charger spaces were in use as a rail replacement bus marshalling area. I cant really see that anybodies going to regularly charge at 65p/Kwh thats the same fuel cost per mile as my Hi Lux Pickup.

When first installed they were free at Hatfield. It's quite likely that when they became chargeable a lot of people stopped using them.

It would make more sense to have simple AC chargers and a rate closer to the regular unit charge (20-30p). Some profit but not loads, but very little maintenance costs.

When everyone has an EV, probably better to make them free and just incorporate a cost into the hourly parking charges.

 

[paul1609]

When first installed they were free at Hatfield. It's quite likely that when they became chargeable a lot of people stopped using them.

It would make more sense to have simple AC chargers and a rate closer to the regular unit charge (20-30p). Some profit but not loads, but very little maintenance costs.

When everyone has an EV, probably better to make them free and just incorporate a cost into the hourly parking charges.

As a business you are going to make a loss on 30p/Kwh. EDF are currently quoting a standard rate in my area of 25.4 pKWH on which I have to charge 20% VAT. The public liability insurance rate is quite high and the insurers require that the cabling is examined by a competent person once every 30 days because of the risk of damage and consequent electric shock

 

[WelshBluebird]

Off topic of course... But train drivers are very much expected to be able to drive for four hours without a break!

But that is their job. They aren't expected to drive for four hours on top of an 8 hour work day. And they are expected to be well rested and fit for their duty, rather than a tired or hungover motorist who is driving to or from somewhere for another activity.

 

[jon0844]

As a business you are going to make a loss on 30p/Kwh. EDF are currently quoting a standard rate in my area of 25.4 pKWH on which I have to charge 20% VAT. The public liability insurance rate is quite high and the insurers require that the cabling is examined by a competent person once every 30 days because of the risk of damage and consequent electric shock

Fair enough, so increase the cost a bit more but not 60, 70, 80 or 85p (I think there are even higher rates). Tesla now charges variable rates for its chargers so presumably has a time of use energy plan like consumers can use?

Or you take the hit and subsidise by adding on 5 or 10p per hour to the car park rates. Or just take the hit entirely if you're, say, a shopping centre wanting to attract more people. Free charging could not only attract more visitors but also make them decide to stay at least a few hours, maybe staying for a meal or going to the cinema etc.

They'd spend more money than the charging cost, and the landowner secures more rent by busier shops and leisure facilities.