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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

AM9

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I think thats true for degradation but unfortunately not true for accident damage. If the hv battery is damaged in an accident the ev is a write off.
Not true. If the car is written off, (for reasons that don't involve the battery), the battery will be removed and re-used. Just like an IC engine might be.
Old batteries will have significant value once the battery recycling industry has scaled. New cost of replacement will be a fraction of what it is today.
The point that I was making was that abnormal high battery usage will be as a result of high takings, therefore the business model will account for that. It was in agreement with the referenced post, - taxi drivers will havde costed battery life into the overheads, the running costs beiing far lower than for IC cabs anyway, and soon most licenced cabs won't have much choice but to run EVs.
 
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trebor79

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The point that I was making was that abnormal high battery usage will be as a result of high takings, therefore the business model will account for that. It was in agreement with the referenced post, - taxi drivers will havde costed battery life into the overheads, the running costs beiing far lower than for IC cabs anyway, and soon most licenced cabs won't have much choice but to run EVs.
True. Also bear in mind there are Tesla and MG5 taxis that have 200,000 miles on them and still with the original battery.
 

paul1609

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Funny to read that as only a few hours ago I was reading something about GWM and how they have a servicing and repair department for damaged batteries, with the aim of ensuring batteries can be saved even after some types of crash damage. It helps with their insurance rating as a result.

I assume other car makers will be doing this sort of thing either already or soon.

The battery position does mean it might not be written off except in the sort of accident where it's the least of anyone's worries.
I'd like to think so, but the reality is at the moment any EV that sustains anything more than superficial damage to a HV battery will be written off because the replacement battery pack (if its available) will cost more than the residual value of the vehicle.
 

AM9

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I'd like to think so, but the reality is at the moment any EV that sustains anything more than superficial damage to a HV battery will be written off because the replacement battery pack (if its available) will cost more than the residual value of the vehicle.
They might be written off as far as the original vehicle is concerned but the physical lump of metals, plastics, and electrolite chemicals aren't just buried in the ground, thay will be separatd, sorted and put through recycling processes. Are complete IC vehicles just committed to landfill?
That's just another false fact from the anti EV advocates, - they conflate the one time initial environmental cost of sourcing materials for batteries with every repair that they may subsequently encounter in their service life. The probelm at the moment is transitional, there's not yet the volume of batteries in use to provide a sufficient amount of items for recycling, - which in turn has limited the number of start-up companies to do the refurbishment.
 

paul1609

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They might be written off as far as the original vehicle is concerned but the physical lump of metals, plastics, and electrolite chemicals aren't just buried in the ground, thay will be separatd, sorted and put through recycling processes. Are complete IC vehicles just committed to landfill?
That's just another false fact from the anti EV advocates, - they conflate the one time initial environmental cost of sourcing materials for batteries with every repair that they may subsequently encounter in their service life. The probelm at the moment is transitional, there's not yet the volume of batteries in use to provide a sufficient amount of items for recycling, - which in turn has limited the number of start-up companies to do the refurbishment.
The issue as I understand it is that the current state of the art batteries with their complicated thermal management systems to support high range and fast charging may never be economically repairable because it will be impossible to insure the repair in terms of the repairers liability. Low level stuff like the early clios and leafs can already be repaired.
 

AM9

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The issue as I understand it is that the current state of the art batteries with their complicated thermal management systems to support high range and fast charging may never be economically repairable because it will be impossible to insure the repair in terms of the repairers liability. Low level stuff like the early clios and leafs can already be repaired.
So that removes the oft repeated envirnmental damage issue given that once the world has converted to EVs there will comparatively little excavation for new materials. As for the current problem with some vehicles' batteries being not economically repairable, one of two things will happen:
a) those models will famously attract high insurance costs, and high cost of ownership towards end of their life. This will damage their saleability forcing manufactuirers to change designs.​
b) the battery refurbishment industry will develop their techniques to make refurbishment of these difficult types viable.​
Business, just like nature, abhors a vacuum.
 

jon0844

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I'd like to think so, but the reality is at the moment any EV that sustains anything more than superficial damage to a HV battery will be written off because the replacement battery pack (if its available) will cost more than the residual value of the vehicle.

But, as I said, companies are repairing them. If a battery is thousands of cells joined in series, you can easily (and safely) salvage these. If the outer case is damaged, get a new case.

Tesla has famously refused to do a lot of this to sell a new battery, but others are promising to do it - or are doing it. There are many companies safely working on fixing damaged cells within a battery (and this has been done for years for other large rechargeable batteries). These, incidentally, are some of the many new jobs being created that young people today should look at as other jobs become obsolete.

That's not to say the insurance industry fully understands all this, or isn't just playing safe by not wanting to insure a battery from a car that has been involved in any sort of accident, but this will change. The extra premiums will come down as the cost of batteries falls further.

Frankly, these days, way too many things are written off instead of repaired. It's a huge problem in the electronics industry where manufacturers want to sell, say, a new motherboard than fix individual components, and then when you add in part pairing, you have a nice cushy cartel to force out third-party repairers. Throw in (like the US car industry did) conspiracy theories like a third-party repairer stalking a woman in a car park because they got access to her car and hacked her data, and you help convince the general population that it's better to be safe than sorry and throw anything damaged away.
 

trebor79

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So that removes the oft repeated envirnmental damage issue given that once the world has converted to EVs there will comparatively little excavation for new materials. As for the current problem with some vehicles' batteries being not economically repairable, one of two things will happen:
a) those models will famously attract high insurance costs, and high cost of ownership towards end of their life. This will damage their saleability forcing manufactuirers to change designs.​
b) the battery refurbishment industry will develop their techniques to make refurbishment of these difficult types viable.​
Business, just like nature, abhors a vacuum.
Yep. I'm quite sure there wil soon be third party companies offering "pattern batteries" in the same manner you can get pattern parts for ICE vehicles.
But, as I said, companies are repairing them. If a battery is thousands of cells joined in series, you can easily (and safely) salvage these. If the outer case is damaged, get a new case
Alas it's not as simple as putting a new cell in for a damaged one,as then the pack is imbalanced and will drift out of balance despite rebalancing. This can lead to all sorts of problems, including further cell failures or even total failure of the pack.

It's a similar imbalance issue that is behind the advice to never mix used and new or different brand batteries in small devices, and why doing so frequently leads to leakage.
 

paul1609

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Yep. I'm quite sure there wil soon be third party companies offering "pattern batteries" in the same manner you can get pattern parts for ICE vehicles.

Alas it's not as simple as putting a new cell in for a damaged one,as then the pack is imbalanced and will drift out of balance despite rebalancing. This can lead to all sorts of problems, including further cell failures or even total failure of the pack.
I think a major issue is that once the battery is unbalanced if you rapid charge it you will get hot spots in the battery that may not be detected which may lead to a fire
 

jon0844

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Yep. I'm quite sure there wil soon be third party companies offering "pattern batteries" in the same manner you can get pattern parts for ICE vehicles.

Alas it's not as simple as putting a new cell in for a damaged one,as then the pack is imbalanced and will drift out of balance despite rebalancing. This can lead to all sorts of problems, including further cell failures or even total failure of the pack.

It's a similar imbalance issue that is behind the advice to never mix used and new or different brand batteries in small devices, and why doing so frequently leads to leakage.
But they're usually in modules and I'm sure cells can be balanced and moved around.
 

trebor79

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But they're usually in modules and I'm sure cells can be balanced and moved around.
Shifting cells around (provided they aren't brazed in) is possible. But why would you unless replacing failed with new?
The issue is a new cell has a different capacity than one that's been in use a while and therefore the cell voltages are imbalanced.
 

E27007

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Shifting cells around (provided they aren't brazed in) is possible. But why would you unless replacing failed with new?
The issue is a new cell has a different capacity than one that's been in use a while and therefore the cell voltages are imbalanced.
I have "DIY" worked on hydrid packs and agree with your statement about imbalance of capacity of individual cells in the pack.
It was very time consuming, typically a week of work , to refurbish an old pack, as you have to test the pack by measuring the capacities of all the cells and filter out the poor/rogue cells and grade the other cells to create a nicely balanced and calibrated pack fit for further service. I expect the manufacturers will develop automated computerised service tools "special battery service workshops" to perform the task.
 
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trebor79

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I have "DIY" worked on hydrid packs and agree with your statement about imbalance of capacity of individual cells in the pack.
It was very time consuming, typically a week of work , to refurbish an old pack, as you have to test the pack by measuring the capacities of all the cells and filter out the poor/rogue cells and grade the other cells to create a nicely balanced and calibrated pack fit for further service. I expect the manufacturers will develop automated computerised service tools "special battery service workshops" to perform the task.
TBH it will probably become more cost effective to just recycle old batteries into raw materials and make new (better as they are improving all the time) packs. Rebuilding by swapping cells is a bit of a cottage industry and I suspect will remain so.
 

Krokodil

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Such a requirement would become part of the business expenditure of running a taxi, and such running would have generated a lot of income from fares. That's nothing like the claimed £10000 out of the blue for a new battery that those against EVs claim will be visited on the poor private motorist.
I know that, I was just curious as to what the depreciation on one might be. I don't have a need for a car myself so my interest (beyond idle curiosity) is that I am likely to end up looking to buy reconditioned batteries for home storage.

I think a major issue is that once the battery is unbalanced if you rapid charge it you will get hot spots in the battery that may not be detected which may lead to a fire
Presumably this isn't going to be an issue if their second life is non-automotive.
 

Bletchleyite

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If someone does a lot of recharge cycles (like a taxi driver for example) and is therefore likely to need to replace the battery with new at some point, how much will the old battery have depreciated in value between the point at which it was bought new and the point at which it is no longer considered good enough for the car (but still has resale value for non-automotive use)?

They won't replace the battery, they'll replace the car, selling it as a local runaround where a short range is fine.

I suspect the number of battery replacements will be about the same as the number of complete ICE engine replacements, ie just where it has completely failed due to a major defect.
 

paul1609

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They won't replace the battery, they'll replace the car, selling it as a local runaround where a short range is fine.

I suspect the number of battery replacements will be about the same as the number of complete ICE engine replacements, ie just where it has completely failed due to a major defect.
I suspect the issue is where the hv battery is located. Any EV that goes off road damaging the hv battery casing will be written off because of the limited ground clearance over stuff like kerbs.
 

bspahh

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https://www.pentagon-group.co.uk/va...tric/vauxhall-astra-electric-design-hatchback has a brand new Vauxhall Astra Electric Design Hatchback for £20,450 cash. The MRRP is £37,995 (!)

There are some stats on it at https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1792/Vauxhall-Astra-Electric
Real Range Estimation between 140 - 295 mi
City - Cold Weather * 190 mi
Highway - Cold Weather * 140 mi
Combined - Cold Weather * 165 mi
City - Mild Weather * 295 mi
Highway - Mild Weather * 180 mi
Combined - Mild Weather * 230 mi
 

DiscoSteve

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You know EVs are going to be the future, there's no doubt about this. But this kind of snobbery can be done without, it really doesn't help the argument at all. Just say "yeah my EV is great, you should consider one" rather than trying to imply that anyone who hasn't got one is some sort of undesirable. There are still plenty of reasons why people may be hesitant about switching, not everywhere is awash with charging stations or on-street charging, and not all homes able yet to have charging points installed without wires running over pavements etc.
WTF - whats the snobbery here? I was a die hard ICE fan until the opportunity came my way to I gave it a try. And it for me its working. My only negative comment related to the still ridiculous arguments touted by those who have a self-interest in sustaining ICE as a viable future. And this is absolutely TRUE. Fast chargers round me (in SE Manchester) are still scarcer than hens teeth which is irritating BUT actually I've worked out that I only really need Fast Chargers around 100-150 miles from home, I don't need them any closer because I have a slow charger at home. But what is also true not everyone lives in a place where they can have a home charger - flats, terraces, no off-street parking etc. Like everything in life, you pays your money and you makes your choice and have to live with the consequences. Welcome to the real tough hard world where life isn't fair!
 

jon0844

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As I hoped, it seems there might be some movement downwards on EV charging prices thanks to growing competition.

(YouTube video discussing price cuts for public EV charging, including Gridserve cutting costs by 20% for members*)

Now I do fear that some companies will collude to keep prices higher, and the idea of memberships for discounts smacks of supermarket loyalty cards and a risk of the 'non member' price going up, more than the member price going down, but it's a step in the right direction.

They key is for EV owners to vote with their wallets and ensure companies don't price gouge.

[* Memberships are currently free, but you must still register and download a special app]
 

paul1609

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I have "DIY" worked on hydrid packs and agree with your statement about imbalance of capacity of individual cells in the pack.
It was very time consuming, typically a week of work , to refurbish an old pack, as you have to test the pack by measuring the capacities of all the cells and filter out the poor/rogue cells and grade the other cells to create a nicely balanced and calibrated pack fit for further service. I expect the manufacturers will develop automated computerised service tools "special battery service workshops" to perform the task.
I think the problem is that you are attempting to balance different cells that depending on the circumstances are at different points in their life cycle. As a consequence the balance you achieve is only at the moment of the repair. In a years time the battery could potentially be out of balance with hot spots developing especially with the high charging rate (full EV) batteries. I suppose the solution might be to somehow limit the charge rate of the repaired refurbished battery. I think that the safest method would be to scrap the batteries and re-use the raw materials.
 

E27007

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I suspect the issue is where the hv battery is located. Any EV that goes off road damaging the hv battery casing will be written off because of the limited ground clearance over stuff like kerbs.
A work colleague has paid £3000 per annum to insure a newly acquired Honda plug-in hybrid, he queried the stiff premium and was informed by the insurer , the risk of the battery being damaged is a significant factor in their liability to meeting claims.
What are members of this thread paying for insuring their ZEV?
 

Harpers Tate

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Mine isn't due yet, but I just asked the Meerkats and the lowest (Tesco) for me and mine is £363.48
 

trebor79

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A work colleague has paid £3000 per annum to insure a newly acquired Honda plug-in hybrid, he queried the stiff premium and was informed by the insurer , the risk of the battery being damaged is a significant factor in their liability to meeting claims.
What are members of this thread paying for insuring their ZEV?
Pahahaha! Insane!
£860 a year for Tesla model 3 LR. Insured for business use and 35,000 miles per year.
 

E27007

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I suspect the issue is where the hv battery is located. Any EV that goes off road damaging the hv battery casing will be written off because of the limited ground clearance over stuff like kerbs.
In the event of a collision, rapid deceleration of the vehicle measured in multiples of g ( gravity), there is a risk of hidden internal damage to the battery system.
Do the battery packs have internal tell-tale "shock" indicating sensors for the purposes of post-accident assessment?
 

trebor79

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In the event of a collision, rapid deceleration of the vehicle measured in multiples of g ( gravity), there is a risk of hidden internal damage to the battery system.
Is this actually true or just something that you've heard or think sounds reasonable? Why would a battery be more susceptible to such damage than say, the radio, an engine and gearbox with thousands of precision parts etc?
Batteries are actually very robust unless pierced or physically deformed.
Do the battery packs have internal tell-tale "shock" indicating sensors for the purposes of post-accident assessment?
Various safety features including a pyro fuse that blows if the car thinks it's been in a bad collision.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the event of a collision, rapid deceleration of the vehicle measured in multiples of g ( gravity), there is a risk of hidden internal damage to the battery system.

Is there? Do you have a reference to a reputable article confirming this?

Mobile phones and tablets are thrown on the floor all the time, causing fast deceleration, and I've never heard of one catching fire as a result.
 

Mawkie

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Batteries are actually very robust unless pierced or physically deformed.
And in the case of the BYD Blade battery, even if pieced. There are various videos on YouTube showing the kinds of tests EV batteries are subjected to, so as you say, we can assume they are at least as safe as carrying around 40 litres of highly combustable liquid.


During the Nail Penetration Test, the Blade Battery gave off no smoke or fire and the surface temperature only reached 30 to 60 degrees Celsius. It also withstood other extreme test conditions, such as being crushed, bent, heated in an oven to 300 degrees Celsius and overloaded by 260%. None of these resulted in a fire or explosion, making BYD Blade Battery a safety leader for the burgeoning EV market.
 

pdq

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What are members of this thread paying for insuring their ZEV?
2024 Niro EV, £485 with Elephant. That's for 14k a year, business use if needed, parking on the drive, £100 voluntary XS, legal protection. The Admiral group were significantly cheaper than other companies this year. There's a discount on this as we have a multicar policy - without it I think it would have been £540ish. Oddly, their price for our little i10 for 4k a year was comparatively pricy at £303 but the joint discount made it worth it for the two vehicles.
 

dcbwhaley

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Frankly, these days, way too many things are written off instead of repaired. It's a huge problem in the electronics industry where manufacturers want to sell, say, a new motherboard than fix individual components, and then when you add in part pairing, you have a nice cushy cartel to force out third-party repairers. Throw in (like the US car industry did) conspiracy theories like a third-party repairer stalking a woman in a car park because they got access to her car and hacked her data, and you help convince the general population that it's better to be safe than sorry and throw anything damaged away.
It is down to labour costs.
A new motherboard, manufactured and assembled in the far east by what is effectively slave labour is not expensive.
Fault finding and repairing said motherboard in the West requires highly paid skilled labour. A couple of hours work on a repair can easily cost more than the replacement cost.
Add to which you need expensive tools for reworking multilayer circuit boards with BGA and suchlike components
 

jon0844

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Right to repair is to allow anyone to do a repair. That could be an independent repair shop, that isn't charging £100+ 'technician' hourly rates, or yourself.

By making parts unavailable, it effectively makes repairable products end-of-life. By keeping prices for parts sky high, you make it uneconomical to do a repair. By requiring parts to be 'paired', you further limit the rights.

Legislation is hopefully coming to sort this around the world, as the amount of e-waste is getting out of control. People have a mindset of throwing something away because their old product is old and it will more expensive to repair than to replace. And the industries are quite happy to propagate the myths that repairs are unsafe, or that you really must get experts to do them because of made-up risks (I am not saying there aren't some exceptions, but most reasons are bogus like the sexual assault claims the motor industry made up to fight right to repair in the USA, funded/lobbied by all the major car makers).

EVs are already impacting the car industry by not requiring the same level of repairs and maintenance, with many dealers making their profit from servicing and repairs - not the car sales themselves. Without the same level of income, many may not survive, so of course they don't want to have just anyone being able to work on them.

It seems the EU is moving ahead faster than the US, to close the loopholes that have allowed some car makers to avoid existing legislation. Encrypting and pairing parts was part of this, stopping independent mechanics being able to do some work that they're meant to be able to do. At the time of creating the rules, neither of these things were known about or properly considered.
 

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