UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Chuffing Heck]

I wouldn’t buy a second hand Tesla the way they are driven doesn’t provide me with any faith in owning a second hand one, I know the BMW drivers are becoming the Tesla drivers of today, for that reason I wouldn’t buy second hand BMW either.

 

[DC1989]

Bit puzzled by the concerns over local councils paying for chargers. If done sensibly (which isn't a given, as Woking has shown most recently), then it becomes an additional revenue stream for the council, rather than an oil company getting the money. What's bad about that?

I too find this a bit odd - though that is without knowing the full economics. Long term it should be a revenue stream though for sure.

It's similar in blocks of flats, I live in a flat complex built in 2013 - 0 electric chargers. There are no residents (That I've seen) that has an electric car. Are there any plans for the management company to install chargers as we approach the ban on ICE? Nope, none whatsoever, they even seemed surprised to have been asked the question. If done correctly it would surely be another revenue stream for them for the next 100+ years!

 

[jon0844]

Not all management companies are stupid - many realise that they will need to embrace EV charging to sell flats. Years ago I wouldn't have bought a house without a mobile phone signal or access to broadband/cable, and soon/now EV charging (and indeed a parking space that's yours) would be essential for many.

 

[AM9]

.... we approach the ban on ICE?

Not necessarily you but so many people speak as if 2030 will be a cliff edge after which it will be illegal to have an IC vehicle. That's so far from the truth that it really needs to be called out. It's not true because it only affects new cars which really only affects manufacturers materially.
The average age of cars in the UK is somewhere between 10 and 17 years old. There seem to be a number of figures given but nobody will be forced to switch to EVs just because brand new IC vehicles are no longer sold.

 

[DC1989]

Not necessarily you but so many people speak as if 2030 will be a cliff edge after which it will be illegal to have an IC vehicle. That's so far from the truth that it really needs to be called out. It's not true because it only affects new cars which really only affects manufacturers materially.
The average age of cars in the UK is somewhere between 10 and 17 years old. There seem to be a number of figures given but nobody will be forced to switch to EVs just because brand new IC vehicles are no longer sold.

Oh absolutely I agree. I think there'll still be petrol cars on UK roads in 2050. On the flip side of that many people also speak like 'I'm just going to buy a petrol car in 2030 and use it for 20 years' when in fact most manufacturers will have stopped offering any ICE cars by 2030. Jaguar, Alfa Romea, Audi, Citroen will be fully electric by 2025/26 I think and the number of models available as petrol will dwindle and dwindle even if there is no 'ban' at that time.

 

[Noddy]

Not necessarily you but so many people speak as if 2030 will be a cliff edge after which it will be illegal to have an IC vehicle. That's so far from the truth that it really needs to be called out. It's not true because it only affects new cars which really only affects manufacturers materially.
The average age of cars in the UK is somewhere between 10 and 17 years old. There seem to be a number of figures given but nobody will be forced to switch to EVs just because brand new IC vehicles are no longer sold.

Oh absolutely I agree. I think there'll still be petrol cars on UK roads in 2050. On the flip side of that many people also speak like 'I'm just going to buy a petrol car in 2030 and use it for 20 years' when in fact most manufacturers will have stopped offering any ICE cars by 2030. Jaguar, Alfa Romea, Audi, Citroen will be fully electric by 2025/26 I think and the number of models available as petrol will dwindle and dwindle even if there is no 'ban' at that time.

The other thing people seem to forget, not understand or just wilfully ignore is that hybrid vehicles will continue to be eligible for sale until 2035. So in reality the ‘ban’ on new ICE isn’t till then.

 

[david1212]

This may have been discussed before but until I read elsewhere by chance I did not know that while for charging at home the VAT rate is 5%, not least because EV charging can not be isolated from all other use, at public chargers it is 20%. This puts all who can not charge at home from their existing supply at a disadvantage. The links below are over 9 months old and over 2 years old but I can not find reference to any change.

EV operators plead with Chancellor cut VAT for public charging network | RAC Drive

Electric vehicle chargepoint operators have urged the Chancellor Kwarteng to cut VAT on public charging following a rise in prices across the UK.

www.rac.co.uk

HMRC confirms 20% VAT rate for public EV charging

Price hikes are on the horizon for InstaVolt’s charging, following clarity on the VAT rate for public charging, while other networks remain unaffected.

www.current-news.co.uk

The elephant in the room that has been discussed before is that combined VAT and duty on a £1.40 litre of petrol or diesel is around 76p so even at 50mpg about 7p / mile. Using a public charger at say 50p/unit plus 20% VAT making 60p then the EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is only 3.3p / mile. I don't know and can not quickly find a current dual tariff overnight rate but if it was 20p/unit plus 5% VAT again with EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is just 0.33p / mile. However charged the government can not afford to loose the current income from petrol and diesel. At 21p/unit then 3 miles/unit the electricity is 7/p mile then even 5p/mile tax making 12p/mile the cost is compatible to petrol and diesel. At 20p/mile for electricity plus 5p/mile tax the total cost becomes twice that of petrol and diesel.

 

[Noddy]

This may have been discussed before but until I read elsewhere by chance I did not know that while for charging at home the VAT rate is 5%, not least because EV charging can not be isolated from all other use, at public chargers it is 20%. This puts all who can not charge at home from their existing supply at a disadvantage. The links below are over 9 months old and over 2 years old but I can not find reference to any change.






The elephant in the room that has been discussed before is that combined VAT and duty on a £1.40 litre of petrol or diesel is around 76p so even at 50mpg about 7p / mile. Using a public charger at say 50p/unit plus 20% VAT making 60p then the EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is only 3.3p / mile. I don't know and can not quickly find a current dual tariff overnight rate but if it was 20p/unit plus 5% VAT again with EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is just 0.33p / mile. However charged the government can not afford to loose the current income from petrol and diesel. At 21p/unit then 3 miles/unit the electricity is 7/p mile then even 5p/mile tax making 12p/mile the cost is compatible to petrol and diesel. At 20p/mile for electricity plus 5p/mile tax the total cost becomes twice that of petrol and diesel.

On Intelligent Octopus 6 hours of overnight (11.30-5.30am) charging is 7.5p per kWh.

 

[birchesgreen]

The availability of getting fuel will be the major factor in whether people continue driving ICE cars into the 2030s and beyond. Less demand will mean more gas stations close (or convert) and eventually it could just become too awkward / expensive to drive even an old banger.

 

[Bald Rick]

The availability of getting fuel will be the major factor in whether people continue driving ICE cars into the 2030s and beyond. Less demand will mean more gas stations close (or convert) and eventually it could just become too awkward / expensive to drive even an old banger.

That just won’t happen until at least 2050.

And it’s called Petrol, not Gas!

 

[birchesgreen]

That just won’t happen until at least 2050.

And it’s called Petrol, not Gas!

I'm not sure, the number of gas stations has declined even within the last few years (around where i am in N Brum anyway). If the number of EVs increases then demand for gasoline will certainly reduce, i am under the impression that gas stations are already making more money from shop sales than carbon based fuels, though that may be a myth.

 

[jon0844]

Petrol stations are closing all the time and it's only 2023. I am fairly certain we'll see a lot less by 2030 when demand will already have dropped markedly as people have bought EVs and are mostly charging from home.

Shell is rebuilding my local station as we speak (likely done before Christmas) and it will become a centre to charge EVs and shop/have a break while waiting. There will still be fuel pumps, but I am not sure if there will be the same number (or whether they'll keep the same number in future years).

Meanwhile by my local Aldi is upgrading its EV chargers to what appears to be more, faster, chargers - and there are also more EV points going in at other car parks. The council is still not offering roadside charging via street lights, but I am sure they'll be doing that at some point in the next few years.

Oh and as we discover, shock horror, that supermarkets were keeping fuel prices higher than they should - you can be certain that as more stations close, prices will creep upwards because they can.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure, the number of gas stations has declined even within the last few years (around where i am in N Brum anyway). If the number of EVs increases then demand for gasoline will certainly reduce, i am under the impression that gas stations are already making more money from shop sales than carbon based fuels, though that may be a myth.

Petrol stations are closing all the time. And that process will continue. But there will still be places to buy petrol in most towns for a long time to come.

 

[trebor79]

I wouldn’t buy a second hand Tesla the way they are driven doesn’t provide me with any faith in owning a second hand one, I know the BMW drivers are becoming the Tesla drivers of today, for that reason I wouldn’t buy second hand BMW either.

I bought one a couple of months ago. 2 years old, 28k miles. I've now out nearly 10k miles on it and absolutely fine so far.
They can accelerate very fast, but there's no clutch etc and no engine to wear out/damage through being "ragged". Very little to worry about and 120k mile or 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain.

 

[jon0844]

I was thinking that myself. Apart from smashing into kerbs and damaging suspension, surely the only wear and tear is going to be on tyres and brakes - things you will change anyway?

I'm quite excited about the new MG4 XPower (even though I've said loads of times that I only need a small car!) and could see myself potentially buying a second hand one in the future - and whereas I've rarely bought second hand performance cars, unless still within warranty, I am not sure there would be anything to worry about with a performance EV.

 

[trebor79]

Well even the brakes are barely used in an EV. In fact the discs on mine are quite badly scored and I expect I shall have to replace them for first MOT

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well even the brakes are barely used in an EV. In fact the discs on mine are quite badly scored and I expect I shall have to replace them for first MOT

Scored discs usually means there's debris got in or the pads are down to the metal. They might be rusty or pitted if used insufficiently, by contrast.

 

[trebor79]

Scored discs usually means there's debris got in or the pads are down to the metal. They might be rusty or pitted if used insufficiently, by contrast.

I think probably debris. I'd be surprised if pads were down to the metal on a 28,000 mile EV and there's none of that grinding noise you get from worn out brakes on the odd occasion I've actually needed to use the friction brakes.

 

[Noddy]

Final Ford Fiesta rolls off production line in Cologne

Ford has made the Fiesta since 1976 but is modifying its Cologne plant to produce more electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

The last Ford Fiesta will roll off the production line on Friday bringing to an end almost 50 years of history which made it the UK's best-selling car.
Ford will produce the final model in Cologne, Germany before its plant is modified to produce more electric vehicles.

As some one who has owned a number of Fiestas over the years I’m sad they’ve chosen to completely end production, rather than move the model to an EV platform. However, all good things come to end and I’m looking forward to seeing what they do with the new EV models.

Most importantly, the wise heads in the industry are moving on with electrification and nothing there is nothing Roman Atkinson or Nadine Dorries can do to stop this.

 

[Energy]

or Nadine Dorries can do to stop this.

To be fair Nadine Dorries wasn't against EVs but the lack of charging infrastructure, at least when she bought hers.

Zap-Map looks very full but a lot of the chargers are only single or dual units.

 

[jon0844]

I think Ford will bring back the Fiesta when it realises the mistake (from a US-centric management viewpoint) although that doesn't mean it won't be a 4x4 SUV vehicle with a Fiesta badge thrown on it.

Next year will see lots of small, lighter, EVs with smaller batteries and ideal for cost conscious buyers doing lower mileages (such as in cities) or as a second car. Meanwhile, Ford will be thinking we all want to drive a tank.

 

[MotCO]

I think Ford will bring back the Fiesta when it realises the mistake (from a US-centric management viewpoint) although that doesn't mean it won't be a 4x4 SUV vehicle with a Fiesta badge thrown on it.

Next year will see lots of small, lighter, EVs with smaller batteries and ideal for cost conscious buyers doing lower mileages (such as in cities) or as a second car. Meanwhile, Ford will be thinking we all want to drive a tank.

I thought the reason for not producing small EVs is because there was no profit in it for them.

 

[jon0844]

I thought the reason for not producing small EVs is because there was no profit in it for them.

Yes that's what they've said, because they are somehow still unable to make a profit where others can - and will.

Now if they think that by not making a small car, people will remain loyal to the marque and just buy a bigger car - well, let's see. I suspect many people will just buy something from someone else.

Ford needs to find a way to make a profitable small car, simple as.

 

[MotCO]

Yes that's what they've said, because they are somehow still unable to make a profit where others can - and will.

Now if they think that by not making a small car, people will remain loyal to the marque and just buy a bigger car - well, let's see. I suspect many people will just buy something from someone else.

Ford needs to find a way to make a profitable small car, simple as.

The others making small cheap EVs tend to be the Chinese.

Similar to your second point, manufacturers used to tempt people in to the marque by offering a cheap range of cars, and gradually move up the range as their income grew. If they don't have an entry level car, they could lose future sales, or is brand loyalty no longer a thing?

 

[tomuk]

Final Ford Fiesta rolls off production line in Cologne

Ford has made the Fiesta since 1976 but is modifying its Cologne plant to produce more electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

As some one who has owned a number of Fiestas over the years I’m sad they’ve chosen to completely end production, rather than move the model to an EV platform. However, all good things come to end and I’m looking forward to seeing what they do with the new EV models.

Most importantly, the wise heads in the industry are moving on with electrification and nothing there is nothing Roman Atkinson or Nadine Dorries can do to stop this.

The fiesta hasn't been killed by EVs it has been killed by SUVs\Crossovers. Ford will happily supply you with a Romanian built petrol Ecosport or Puma instead.

 

[Sm5]

I bought one a couple of months ago. 2 years old, 28k miles. I've now out nearly 10k miles on it and absolutely fine so far.
They can accelerate very fast, but there's no clutch etc and no engine to wear out/damage through being "ragged". Very little to worry about and 120k mile or 8 year warranty on battery and drivetrain.

what happens after 8 years ?

Post above suggests average car age is 17 years ?

EV are already expensive toys, upgrading like iphones is out of the question and the second hand market will die if after 8 years your looking at a historical monument on wheels.

 

[bspahh]

what happens after 8 years ?

Post above suggests average car age is 17 years ?

EV are already expensive toys, upgrading like iphones is out of the question and the second hand market will die if after 8 years your looking at a historical monument on wheels.

My car is 10 years old, and it came with a 3 year 60,000 mile warranty. It didn't stop working when the warranty ran out

 

[Sm5]

My car is 10 years old, and it came with a 3 year 60,000 mile warranty. It didn't stop working when the warranty ran out

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

my ICE does, which is why I have one.

 

[bspahh]

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

my ICE does, which is why I have one.

It does at least 750 miles, but its a diesel.

I don't see any evidence of electric cars having dramatic drop offs in battery range when they age.

 

[AM9]

It does at least 750 miles, but its a diesel.

I don't see any evidence of electric cars having dramatic drop offs in battery range when they age.

They don't, but because manufacturers have to put some limit on their potential warranty liabilities, (so far, battery lives have exceeded typical usage that equates to about 15 years). This common warranty limit has been used to fabricate a lie that at eight years battery performance falls off a cliff.