UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bletchleyite]

Piers Corbyn, a scientist with knowledge of climate and weather

Piers Corbyn, a nutter and conspiracy theorist, you mean? Nothing that comes out of his gob is reputable.

Reputable scientists don't publicise themselves singing "wearing a mask is like trying to keep a fart in your trousers" while dragging a mob down a Tube train, regardless of the level of truth in the matter, and regardless of how childishly amusing that was to watch. They publish peer reviewed scientific papers. Do you have a reference to one stating what you claim?

 

[Bald Rick]

Piers Corbyn, a scientist with knowledge of climate and weather

Piers Corbyn is an Astrophysicist by training. You may as well seek my opinion, as I’m a Scientist with knowledge of climate and weather.

I think I’d rather take the opinions of trained meteorologists and climatologists.

 

[AM9]

Piers Corbyn is an Astrophysicist by training. You may as well seek my opinion, as I’m a Scientist with knowledge of climate and weather.

I think I’d rather take the opinions of trained meteorologists and climatologists.

Many lay persons see the word scientist embedded in an 'expert's' accreditations as proof of expertise in all things scientific. Even scientologists probably are credible to them if their arguments suit!

 

[43066]

Piers Corbyn is an Astrophysicist by training.

That doesn’t prevent him from being…

a nutter and conspiracy theorist

… though.

I’m a Scientist with knowledge of climate and weather.

What branch of science, out of interest? I had assumed you were an engineer.

 

[Bald Rick]

That doesn’t prevent him from being…



… though.



What branch of science, out of interest? I had assumed you were an engineer.

Well I have a BSc and MSc. That means I’m a scientist, right?

Mrs BR has a BSc too. In German.

 

[stuu]

Piers Corbyn, a scientist with knowledge of climate and weather, states that Co2 produced by human activity is less than the Co2 produced by the Termite insects of the planet, in other words man produces a trivial amount of Co2 i compared to the total Co2 produced by nature. Are we going to have to eliminate the Termites to save the Planet?

I genuinely don't know if this is sarcasm. Does he still think Covid was spread by 5G?

Cats cause hurricanes, they need to be eliminated. As I have a BSc too, I'm a scientist so this must be true

 

[43066]

Well I have a BSc and MSc. That means I’m a scientist, right?

Mrs BR has a BSc too. In German.

Oh well, in that case, I suppose my LLB makes me a social scientist, so you might as well ask me for my opinions!

(Which can be summed up as: it’s too late, let’s get real, abandon “net zero”, and start building flood defences! )

With that in mind you can guess what I think of electric cars! I don’t mind electric trains quite so much…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well I have a BSc and MSc. That means I’m a scientist, right?

Mrs BR has a BSc too. In German.

BSc in a language? That's unusual, is it a specific degree for technical or scientific language? Modern languages are almost always BAs.

 

[Bald Rick]

BSc in a language? That's unusual, is it a specific degree for technical or scientific language? Modern languages are almost always BAs.

nope!

 

[Clayton]

Piers Corbyn, a scientist with knowledge of climate and weather, states that Co2 produced by human activity is less than the Co2 produced by the Termite insects of the planet, in other words man produces a trivial amount of Co2 i compared to the total Co2 produced by nature. Are we going to have to eliminate the Termites to save the Planet?

If your best source is noted conspiracist, antivaxxer, and general nutter Piers Corbyn you’ve lost the argument before you’ve started.

 

[E27007]

Piers Corbyn is an Astrophysicist by training. You may as well seek my opinion, as I’m a Scientist with knowledge of climate and weather.

I think I’d rather take the opinions of trained meteorologists and climatologists.

Pies Corbyn ran a commercial company WeatherAction, the company would study and forecast / predict the weather, so Corbyn has a bit more than an MSc in Astrophysics

 

[jon0844]

Pies Corbyn ran a commercial company WeatherAction, the company would study and forecast / predict the weather, so Corbyn has a bit more than an MSc in Astrophysics

He also thinks Covid 19 was a hoax, and supported the wild theories that hospitals were in fact empty and everything was one big scam amongst other things.

And look at the website for this commercial company! http://weatheraction.com/

Here's a quote (very weather related).

#Covid19-Alarm has replaced #ClimateChange-Alarm as the main propaganda tool of the megaRich and Mega Corporations for their declared NewNormal / NewWorldOrder world plunder and control scheming to end democracy and destroy Rights.
"These are strange times indeed when a LongRange Weather forecasting company actively discusses such political things; but make no mistake the totalitarian nature of this NewNormal / NewWorldOrder project is THE end of Science and THE end of democracy. Both ClimateChange propaganda and CV19 contagion propaganda rely on falsification of data and negation of evidence-based science. THAT REQUIRES the negation of democracy because it is through democratic debate based on evidence of the real world that science of the real world is advanced. Most academic institutions and official science and technology bodies are now prisoners of the propaganda machine and as in Nazi Germany - where 'contagion' was the key to coercion - and the Stalinist USSR, the "science" they propagate is for the political spectacle not the understanding of the living and physical universe.

And the address (note, not registered address as from what I can see it isn't a registered business) is a serviced office in London Bridge. In other words, a glorified PO Box.

I assume he's still running the site, given it is still getting updates (even if the site looks like something first created in the mid 1990s on the WWW V1.0).

I wouldn't recommend giving him any money for one of his 'solar' forecasts, but you do you.

 

[Energy]

And the address (note, not registered address as from what I can see it isn't a registered business) is a serviced office in London Bridge. In other words, a glorified PO Box.

There is a company on companies house which used to be called WEATHER ACTION HOLDINGS PLC but Piers Corbyn resigned on the 24th January 2004 and company is in a non trading state.

I assume he's still running the site, given it is still getting updates (even if the site looks like something first created in the mid 1990s on the WWW V1.0).

It probably was, the copyright at the bottom is for 2011 and there is a random "£20,000" text right at the top of the page.

 

[jon0844]

But it is still being updated by someone, which means someone still has access to the site and is still trying to make money from it.

It all smells like one big scam.

 

[matacaster]

There are a number of issues with EVs and there introduction which seem manifestly unfair.

1. I believe circa half of new EVs are company vehicles. I suspect companies in the main bought them as they assumed lower running costs. Employees because of the tax advantages.
2. The price of new EVs is significantly higher than equivalent standard petrol or diesel
3. People who have a £1000 petrol or diesel are unlikely to ever be able to afford an EV as if the price ever gets that low for a second hand EV, then the battery will likely be useless.EV insurance is generally more expensive and some EVs are written off because of very minor collisions where battery is potentially slightly damaged. An EV home charger will likely cost around £1000 and you've still got to buy the car
4. Why aren't the very profitable car manufacturers ponying up to install charging networks (like Tesla) it shouldn't be out of general taxation as it's only company car and fairly well off who benefit in the short term.
5. The new UK car market should be able to support more than nissan and jaguar as home grown car makers. We should be taking the opportunity to get more cars being built in UK and making buying EU cars more expensive.
6. Who is going to pay for the increased road wear from EVs and repairing or replacing multi-storey car parks due to heavy weight.
7. Many ICE cars are not scrapped until they are maybe 15+ years old. EVs are likely to require a new battery and due to cost thereof scrapped earlier. That's environmentally bad.
8. Owing to rapid improvements in EVs battery life, earlier EVs will be heavily discounted on used market owing to original lower range which will have been depleted at least somewhat by use.

9. The plan seems to be to make it as difficult as possible for the relatively poor to have a car or at least not being able to actually use it if they have one due to pollution charges (ICE), cycle lanes (all), inability to charge in flats or on-street by home EV),

Discuss!

 

[dosxuk]

Not sure how any of those points could be described as unfair...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Petrol cars as much as 10-15 years old are usually ULEZ compliant, so stick to petrol if you prefer.

Old diesels need to go.

 

[DarloRich]

There are a number of issues with EVs and there introduction which seem manifestly unfair.

could you point out the unfairness in any of your statements? You seem to be describing "differences" between types of vehicle.

As for the long term, the trajectory is clearly based on price reduction, battery life extension and increased range. None of that seems widely unrealistic. We will all be driving eclectic vehicles of one type or another in due course. The question is when.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh dear.

I believe circa half of new EVs are company vehicles. I suspect companies in the main bought them as they assumed lower running costs. Employees because of the tax advantages.

circa half of all cars sold are company vehicles. (52.5%, year to date, source SMMT). What’s your point?

The price of new EVs is significantly higher than equivalent standard petrol or diesel

And the whole life cost is lower. What’s your point?

Why aren't the very profitable car manufacturers ponying up to install charging networks (like Tesla) it shouldn't be out of general taxation as it's only company car and fairly well off who benefit in the short term.

It’s not out of general taxation, generally. Private companies are doing it, and, most obviously, private individuals On their drives.

The new UK car market should be able to support more than nissan and jaguar as home grown car makers. We should be taking the opportunity to get more cars being built in UK and making buying EU cars more expensive.

Yes we should. If only we had completely free trade terms with the single largest trading block in the world, we might be able to compete better.

Who is going to pay for the increased road wear from EVs and repairing or replacing multi-storey car parks due to heavy weight.

who has paid for the increased wear caused by average car weight increasing by over 50% in the last 30 years?

Many ICE cars are not scrapped until they are maybe 15+ years old. EVs are likely to require a new battery and due to cost thereof scrapped earlier. That's environmentally bad.

No, EVs will not (generally) need a new battery before then. See the other threads and all the research. Where do you get your false information?

Owing to rapid improvements in EVs battery life, earlier EVs will be heavily discounted on used market owing to original lower range which will have been depleted at least somewhat by use.

So you agree that battery life will be long?

And now you’re complaining that older models will be too cheap?

Which side of the fence are you on?

 

[matacaster]

The unfairness I perceive is that poorer people and people without cars are having to chip in via general taxation and possibly council tax to subsidise people who clearly have enough money to buy cars costing £30k-£100k and also companies via charger network, etc. I have no problem with electric cars, but the motor industry makes plenty of money to fund charging points and EV motorists should chip in too. EVs should be properly taxed by road pricing if nothing else and no way should they reduce the vat on charging. If they want to make people buy only new cars powered by electric, the govt could bring forward the end of selling new ICE cars by a couple of years. That should be sufficient incentive to cause take-up of EVs to be quicker rather than subsidising them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The unfairness I perceive is that poorer people and people without cars are having to chip in via general taxation and possibly council tax to subsidise people who clearly have enough money to buy cars costing £30k-£100k and also companies via charger network, etc. I have no problem with electric cars, but the motor industry makes plenty of money to fund charging points and EV motorists should chip in too. EVs should be properly taxed by road pricing if nothing else and no way should they reduce the vat on charging. If they want to make people buy only new cars powered by electric, the govt could bring forward the end of selling new ICE cars by a couple of years. That should be sufficient incentive to cause take-up of EVs to be quicker rather than subsidising them.

You're forgetting that the new EVs of now are the cheap used EVs of 10 years' time. The market is being primed now very much at the expense of purchasers of new ones as they take the whacking level of depreciation.

 

[Bald Rick]

The unfairness I perceive is that poorer people and people without cars are having to chip in via general taxation and possibly council tax to subsidise people who clearly have enough money to buy cars costing £30k-£100k

That’s been the case since forever there have been cars, regardless of their ‘fuel’. It’s got nothing to do with EVs.

the motor industry makes plenty of money to fund charging points and EV motorists should chip in too.

EV motorists are - either by paying for charging points on their property, or paying higher charging rates by using privately funded chargers provided elsewhere.

EVs should be properly taxed

They will be:

Introduction of Vehicle Excise Duty for zero emission cars, vans and motorcycles from 2025

www.gov.uk

If they want to make people buy only new cars powered by electric, the govt could bring forward the end of selling new ICE cars by a couple of years.

They have done, by a whole decade:

UK plans to bring forward ban on fossil fuel vehicles to 2030

Announcement expected in autumn to help trigger green economic recovery from Covid-19

www.theguardian.com

 

[jon0844]

Used EVs are already starting to drop to very competitive pricing, and I do sometimes wonder if everyone (I know I did) has failed to notice how much ALL new cars are costing these days.

When I saw EVs costing £25k and above, I was one of those who thought the difference over a petrol or diesel car was too much. Then I noticed a new Ford Focus costs over £21k, and Ford has stopped making the Fiesta and smaller cars (or is about to).

ALL cars are expensive, but you always look at the cost of ownership and take into account the cost of servicing and maintenance and preparing for potentially expensive works as the car ages and all those mechanical bits wear, seals perish and so on. An EV is a battery and motor. Obviously there are moving parts that will need care and attention, but it's a lot less - and a lot more predictable in terms of likely cost to replace.

Plus a battery doesn't just expire. It degrades over time, and all evidence points to a battery lasting way more than is warrantied (which stands to reason; car makers don't want to pay out claims so they underestimate the likely lifespan) and a car doing 250 miles today that does 210 in ten years (if driven a lot) isn't a problem to most people who do 30-40 miles a day bar that one or two holiday trips a year. Again, MOST people are not driving a lot - especially not in one go.

Charging infrastructure is of course an issue but capitalism should sort that. Plenty of companies are making good money from them, so more will be built.. and yet most people charge from home anyway.

What most people want are smaller EVs. They'll be lighter too, because they can have smaller batteries and still offer a good range. Add in fast charging and we'll see the tipping point where nobody will want a 1ltr petrol supermini anymore. And if you buy one new or used, chances are you really will be able to keep it for years without any nasty surprises.

Then when it must be scrapped, that battery will either get recycled or reused in home storage. Third parties might even replace individual cells to use again in other vehicles. It will be a lot less messy than swapping engines, gearboxes etc.

 

[Energy]

When I saw EVs costing £25k and above, I was one of those who thought the difference over a petrol or diesel car was too much. Then I noticed a new Ford Focus costs over £21k, and Ford has stopped making the Fiesta and smaller cars (or is about to).

The whole market has gone upwards, 10 years ago a Dacia Sandero was a little over £7k, now its £13.8k.

Cheap mass produced cars never had good profit margins, and young buyers are heading more towards leasing (think how many young couples you see with a Mercedes A Class).

Charging infrastructure is of course an issue but capitalism should sort that. Plenty of companies are making good money from them, so more will be built.. and yet most people charge from home anyway.

I think many forget how fast the industry is progressing, EV charging stations are lagging behind but more because of supply chains and delays to grid connections than lack of demand.

Then when it must be scrapped, that battery will either get recycled or reused in home storage. Third parties might even replace individual cells to use again in other vehicles. It will be a lot less messy than swapping engines, gearboxes etc.

Exactly, we are already seeing early EV batteries being used for grid storage and individual cell replacement is becoming more of a reality.

Battery degradation isn't much of a problem now, MG were offering an 7 year / 80 000 mile warranty.

I have no problem with electric cars, but the motor industry makes plenty of money to fund charging points and EV motorists should chip in too

The government currently offers subsidies on electric vehicles (up to £1500 now), up to £350 for home chargers and 75% of the cost (up to £350) for workplace charging (up to 40 sockets). There is also funding for local councils.

In my town of 20k there is one part council funded rapid charger. Meanwhile their are 2 entirely commercial rapid chargers and 6 more planned which are entirely commercially funded. There are also some council funded 7kw chargers which have been provided outside of flats.

The government has put money into petrol/diesel cars before such as with the scrappage schemes. And some cars about 10 years ago (mostly the dodgy VW group diesels) paid zero road tax, now only paying about £15-30 a year.

 

[jon0844]

Cheap mass produced cars never had good profit margins, and young buyers are heading more towards leasing (think how many young couples you see with a Mercedes A Class).

I'm leasing also (because in 2021 it didn't seem a good time to buy an EV with prices high and lots of new cars on the horizon to help bring prices down and increase choice), but I think when I switch to an EV in 2025 I will strongly consider buying a nearly new one with 10k or something (that seems to get quite a discount and in terms of battery degradation is almost a rounding error) and keeping it for 10 years.

The industry certainly wants people to lease or finance, or use a car subscription service with everything included - which is okay if you have the money, but is excessively expensive. That said, maybe some people don't mind paying £500-600 a month for something they'll never own and just keep up the payments like Netflix or Spotify.

Personally, I want a small car (I'm eyeing up the forthcoming Citroen e-C3) or similar. The MG4 might suffice also.

 

[Noddy]

There are a number of issues with EVs and there introduction which seem manifestly unfair.

1. I believe circa half of new EVs are company vehicles. I suspect companies in the main bought them as they assumed lower running costs. Employees because of the tax advantages.
2. The price of new EVs is significantly higher than equivalent standard petrol or diesel
3. People who have a £1000 petrol or diesel are unlikely to ever be able to afford an EV as if the price ever gets that low for a second hand EV, then the battery will likely be useless.EV insurance is generally more expensive and some EVs are written off because of very minor collisions where battery is potentially slightly damaged. An EV home charger will likely cost around £1000 and you've still got to buy the car
4. Why aren't the very profitable car manufacturers ponying up to install charging networks (like Tesla) it shouldn't be out of general taxation as it's only company car and fairly well off who benefit in the short term.
5. The new UK car market should be able to support more than nissan and jaguar as home grown car makers. We should be taking the opportunity to get more cars being built in UK and making buying EU cars more expensive.
6. Who is going to pay for the increased road wear from EVs and repairing or replacing multi-storey car parks due to heavy weight.
7. Many ICE cars are not scrapped until they are maybe 15+ years old. EVs are likely to require a new battery and due to cost thereof scrapped earlier. That's environmentally bad.
8. Owing to rapid improvements in EVs battery life, earlier EVs will be heavily discounted on used market owing to original lower range which will have been depleted at least somewhat by use.

9. The plan seems to be to make it as difficult as possible for the relatively poor to have a car or at least not being able to actually use it if they have one due to pollution charges (ICE), cycle lanes (all), inability to charge in flats or on-street by home EV),

Discuss!

Plenty of other responses on the other points but regarding point 4.

Ionity are a joint venture between BMW Group, Ford Motor Company, Hyundai Motor Group, Mercedes Benz AG and Volkswagen Group. They also have a plug and charge system which works like the Tesla system-set it up via the car or a third party and then all you need to do is plug the car in and it starts charging automatically-no cards required.

As far as I’m aware all the major charging networks are privately owned except for ChargePlace Scotland (which the Scottish government are looking to sell). While some money for improving infrastructure undoubtedly comes from taxpayers (especially as the grid is improved/connections made) much of the money is coming from the private sector.

I also suspect that over the next few years we’ll start to see a lot of mergers/takeovers in this area as profitable companies look to expand.

 

[stuu]

Bit puzzled by the concerns over local councils paying for chargers. If done sensibly (which isn't a given, as Woking has shown most recently), then it becomes an additional revenue stream for the council, rather than an oil company getting the money. What's bad about that?

 

[MattA7]

Didn’t the moderators close this thread?

 

[HOOVER29]

Though if you live in the "country" the issue of charging at your own property is less troublesome usually?

I live in the countryside.
Out of the 70 odd houses on our road around 10 have driveways.
When I finish work I’m lucky if I can park in the street.
Usually it’s not even in the same postcode area.

I bought a Golf diesel 4 years ago.

Fingers crossed it’s the last car I’ll buy

 

[ExRes]

Talking to a couple of people at the local recycling centre this morning, they say that Brighton & Hove council are to increase their electric car charging prices by 50%