UK Fare Structure

[adamcoppard]

I recently went down to my local staion to by some tickets for a upcoming trip and my FOSS 3 in 7 Rover for next week. In between the purchase of the ticket and rover (a queue was forming and as I was making a fair few reservations I made way until it was less busy). Two seperate individuals both wanted singles to London Waterloo (around £45) and both complained about the price, rather loudly and rather angrily (I was told good luck!). The ticket clerk explained in both cases, how it was chepaer booking in advance, and when one asked about the fact the return "was only a few pounds more" the reply came "well that's they way they've priced it." (I must say one of the chaps suddenly pricked his ears up when I was reeling off my list of reservations and the price of £26.40 came up!).

My question after this (which is something I imagine happening every day up and down the country after reading through the many posts on Fares in the forum, and, my experience at the station) is
a) how can a unified message be made to passengers about 'advance' fares, baring the fact of The Train Lines advertising. Obviously, passengers are unaware of them. Is it time the TOC's did more to push these?
b) Should the yield-management be changed, so that the fares are priced lower to encourage people from other forms of tranport?
c) Should the UK Fare system be overhauled, forgetting any archaic BR - era rules and going for true simplification.
b) Should returns be altered so there is much more (not necessarialy, but up to 50%) difference between a single and return ticket?

OR

do you think that TOC's are doing enough, and the fares are reasonable for passengers? After all, both wanting the tickets in my case were adults. Both (unless they had an emergency and didn't know they'd need to be travelling) could have looked on the NRE site for fares.

 

[Zoe]

Don't forget that the current fare structure is not UK wide, a different structure is used in Northern Ireland.

 

[Bungle73]

Why should we have to pay substantially more for returns just because some idiots don't understand how the system works? The reason you can get a return for just a little more than a single is because you're getting a special deal. Why don't people understand this, or would they be happy paying double the single price for a return?

 

[SS4]

Methinks this belongs in FT&R.

a) how can a unified message be made to passengers about 'advance' fares, baring the fact of The Train Lines advertising. Obviously, passengers are unaware of them. Is it time the TOC's did more to push these?

No. Advance fares are well publicised, if people don't want to do their research they do not deserve the lowest price. Do you accept your insurance renewal or do you look for the best deal?

b) Should the yield-management be changed, so that the fares are priced lower to encourage people from other forms of transport?

In an ideal world yes but back in the real world where would this money come from?

c) Should the UK Fare system be overhauled, forgetting any archaic BR - era rules and going for true simplification.

Simplification is at best an ambiguous word. 2008 simplification certainly didn't benefit the passenger or even reduce the amount of tickets significantly. You can still buy a super off-peak return which is not to be confused with an off-peak return.
I don't want an overhaul since it would benefit ATOC, not the passenger.

b) Should returns be altered so there is much more (not necessarialy, but up to 50%) difference between a single and return ticket?

Not really. I suppose if you wanted real simplification you could go down the Oyster route and abolish returns completely.

do you think that TOC's are doing enough, and the fares are reasonable for passengers? After all, both wanting the tickets in my case were adults. Both (unless they had an emergency and didn't know they'd need to be travelling) could have looked on the NRE site for fares.

I think anytime fares need reducing and to pay for it through taxpayer subsidy (I am on the left of the political spectrum so support tax subsided public transport, someone on the right may think differently). Off-Peak are generally reasonable with the exception of a few routes

 

[Zoe]

Off-Peak are generally reasonable with the exception of a few routes

I find it to be more than a few routes, quite a few intercity fares you have to book in advance these days as the Off Peak fares are too expensive.

 

[SS4]

I find it to be more than a few routes, quite a few intercity fares you have to book in advance these days as the Off Peak fares are too expensive.

True. Out of interest does this hold for splitting?

The issue with fares is the rather broad definition of reasonable. ATOC and the TOCs use such ambiguous terms to their advantage in ripping off the passenger.

 

[Minilad]

Would a relaxation of some of the more restrictive time restrictions rather than a reduction in fares be as useful

 

[radamfi]

Why should we have to pay substantially more for returns just because some idiots don't understand how the system works? The reason you can get a return for just a little more than a single is because you're getting a special deal. Why don't people understand this, or would they be happy paying double the single price for a return?

The current system makes triangular trips very expensive. I would favour abolishing returns. Actually, things are better than under BR in this respect as Advances are all singles and there is a bigger gap between walk up singles and returns. Airlines used to have effectively 'compulsory returns' as well but now they generally don't so I don't think there is a commercial reason for returns at the price of a single these days.

 

[Bungle73]

The current system makes triangular trips very expensive. I would favour abolishing returns. Actually, things are better than under BR in this respect as Advances are all singles and there is a bigger gap between walk up singles and returns. Airlines used to have effectively 'compulsory returns' as well but now they generally don't so I don't think there is a commercial reason for returns at the price of a single these days.

How many people want to make triangular trips? Most people want to travel from A to B, then back to A again. Why makes things more expensive for most people just so a minority can get fares a little cheaper?

 

[radamfi]

How many people want to make triangular trips? Most people want to travel from A to B, then back to A again. Why makes things more expensive for most people just so a minority of people can have cheaper fares?

I often make triangular trips and of course motorists do it all the time. Actually, I don't make that many triangular trips because I have to waste time doing two returns instead to save money. Returns the price of a single are fairly uncommon outside the UK and Ireland.

If, indeed most people get returns, then there would not be a large price rise for 2 x singles to keep it revenue neutral.

 

[yorkie]

How many people want to make triangular trips? Most people want to travel from A to B, then back to A again. Why makes things more expensive for most people just so a minority can get fares a little cheaper?

Is it really true that most people only want to go to one place and return? I don't think so. It's only claimed to be true because the railways make it very difficult to buy a ticket that allows anything else.

I suspect if you analysed the Oyster PAYG journey patterns, most users journeys at weekends would actually not be a simple A to B and back. During the week, perhaps most people would (for commuting) but I bet a significant number would do more than just A to B and back.

I don't agree with your last sentence. Does Oyster PAYG increase the cost for a majority to cater for the minority? No, it actually simplifies the whole process and there is no evidence of increased cost, providing it is done in a reasonable manner (as was the case in London). ATOC need to be dragged into the 21st century.

 

[SS4]

I suspect if you analysed the Oyster PAYG journey patterns, most users journeys at weekends would actually not be a simple A to B and back. During the week, perhaps most people would (for commuting) but I bet a significant number would do more than just A to B and back.

I don't agree with your last sentence. Does Oyster PAYG increase the cost for a majority to cater for the minority? No, it actually simplifies the whole process and there is no evidence of increased cost, providing it is done in a reasonable manner (as was the case in London). ATOC need to be dragged into the 21st century.

Oyster's PAYG simplicity came at the cost of eliminating break of journey except for the few OSIs defined unilaterally and without consultation by TfL.

While fares are not exactly simple, flexibility in the routeing guide and split ticketing provide those who are bothered to do extra research (both are publicly available) get a better deal. Sounds fare to me (pun intended )

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How many people want to make triangular trips? Most people want to travel from A to B, then back to A again. Why makes things more expensive for most people just so a minority can get fares a little cheaper?

One long such day trip which is probably used quite a bit is Euston - Carlisle - Leeds - King's Cross; there used to be a "Round Robin" ticket to cover this, I don't think there is now unfortunately.

( In this instance I wonder whether a return from, say, Epsom to Armathwaite, Lazonby or Langwathby would be valid via Carlisle or via Leeds, meaning the outward portion could be used on one route and the return for the other, thus allowing the full circular trip? Or does it specifically say "via one or the other" on such a ticket? )

 

[yorkie]

( In this instance I wonder whether a return from, say, Epsom to Armathwaite, Lazonby or Langwathby would be valid via Carlisle or via Leeds, meaning the outward portion could be used on one route and the return for the other, thus allowing the full circular trip? Or does it specifically say "via one or the other" on such a ticket? )

Route +Any Permitted, valid via Carlisle, or via Leeds, so yes you could do a circular route. There are thousands of ticket flows that would allow circular routes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's good news Yorkie, though I guess the price is a lot more than it would be if the dedicated circular tickets still existed! Maybe I'll get to do that S&C round trip again one day before too long... Is any one of the stations more price advantageous than the others, or are all three of them the same price from Epsom?

 

[yorkie]

That's good news Yorkie, though I guess the price is a lot more than it would be if the dedicated circular tickets still existed! Maybe I'll get to do that S&C round trip again one day before too long... Is any one of the stations more price advantageous than the others, or are all three of them the same price from Epsom?

All the same price as each other, and Carlisle.

 

[martinsh]

I recently went down to my local staion to by some tickets for a upcoming trip and my FOSS 3 in 7 Rover for next week. In between the purchase of the ticket and rover (a queue was forming and as I was making a fair few reservations I made way until it was less busy). Two seperate individuals both wanted singles to London Waterloo (around £45) and both complained about the price, rather loudly and rather angrily .

Out of interest, where was this ? Not living in the area, I have no idea how far a £45 single from Waterloo would get you.

 

[Welshman]

That's good news Yorkie, though I guess the price is a lot more than it would be if the dedicated circular tickets still existed! Maybe I'll get to do that S&C round trip again one day before too long... Is any one of the stations more price advantageous than the others, or are all three of them the same price from Epsom?

Peter - don't forget that Northern offer a "North West Round Robin" ticket covering the Leeds-Blackburn-Preston-Lancaster-Carlisle-Settle-Skipton triangle for £32 [details on the Northern website].

Coupled with advance singles to/from Leeds/Preston, this may work out cheaper.

 

[RJ]

Why should we have to pay substantially more for returns just because some idiots don't understand how the system works?

Indeed. Some of the very people crying out for simplification, are those who exploit complex loopholes to save money.

It makes about as much sense as the people who have fare evaded through deliberately using tickets staff are geographically unfamiliar with (or otherwise exploiting ignorance), being vociferous about the quality of knowledge of retail staff.

 

[tony_mac]

For a more general answer, where there are two routes with different prices you can buy the cheapest ticket and 'excess' one half of it (paying half the difference) so you can make a circular trip.

Or just pay for the more expensive route which will also be valid on the cheaper route anyway. (This may seem fairly obvious, but I have been asked if this is allowed).

(I recommend the S&C after a heavy snow fall! And if you have more than a day to explore then a Freedom of the North West is a good ticket).

Indeed. Some of the very people crying out for simplification, are those who exploit complex loopholes to save money.

I don't see any problem with that!

I would rather see things simplified, even though I personally would probably lose out - while I generally do quite well, I know lots more people that don't.

 

[furryfeet]

I don't want an overhaul since it would benefit ATOC, not the passenger.

the first step in a proper overhaul, which would benefit the passengers i.e. the electorate would be to scrap ATOC altogether, or at the very least strip it of the powers to set fares and charges.

 

[yorkie]

I would support an overhaul if - and only if - certain guarantees were put in place. But they won't be, at least not by the current lot in charge at the DfT (who are not known as the DafT for nothing!) therefore I don't support it!

 

[OwlMan]

the first step in a proper overhaul, which would benefit the passengers i.e. the electorate would be to scrap ATOC altogether, or at the very least strip it of the powers to set fares and charges.

ATOC set very few fares. Most are set by individual TOCs

Peter

 

[furryfeet]

ATOC set very few fares. Most are set by individual TOCs

true, but getting rid of ATOC would be a useful step in changing the system.
Then sensible rules, which are aimed at giving the passengers a better deal and which are consistent across all TOCs can then be applied. It may be that these conditions have to be written into the franchise contracts as and when they are renewed.

 

[OwlMan]

true, but getting rid of ATOC would be a useful step in changing the system.
Then sensible rules, which are aimed at giving the passengers a better deal and which are consistent across all TOCs can then be applied. It may be that these conditions have to be written into the franchise contracts as and when they are renewed.

HOw would getting rid of ATOC help?. They are just a trade association consisting of the TOCs, without the Government would have to negiate with every TOC separately.
If you mean remove regulatory powers from ATOC then I agree but that is a completely different thing.
Peter

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The reason you can get a return for just a little more than a single is because you're getting a special deal.

Not really. BR introduced the Saver as just a return ticket, and then under pressure produced a single at a pound less, not being able to contemplate reducing it by half as that would effectively admit normal fares were too expensive (this was in the era when time restrictions were minimal). Airlines did the same with compulsory Saturday night away etc.

Today it is incomprehensible that an off-peak single at half the off-peak return (SVR, CDR etc) is not generally available (with the relevant time restrictions).

If the railway deems the time period as "off peak" then you should be able to buy a full range of tickets with that time restriction. Charging practically double for single tickets is simply "not fair". It would also benefit triangular trips.

 

[radamfi]

I wouldn't be surprised if the TOCs would like to end the practice of singles being similar in price to returns but are prevented by fare capping. Smartcard implementation in the Netherlands has led to the abolition of returns and Oyster has led to paper returns in London not being good value so should PAYG smartcards get extended elsewhere in Britain it may have the same effect. Certainly I would expect Oyster to be extended further into the south east in forthcoming years.

 

[RJ]

the first step in a proper overhaul, which would benefit the passengers i.e. the electorate would be to scrap ATOC altogether, or at the very least strip it of the powers to set fares and charges.

And what exactly is it you propose? I keep seeing nonsensical ideas of averaging out fares/getting rid of cheap tickets etc, but nothing which actually allows for both viability and good value. Taking into account subsidies from numerous sources, supply and demand, protected fares/concessions, input from government authorities and all of the other factors which currently have an influence in fares, how is this "simplicity" supposed to be implemented? Would be interested to see any intellectual responses put forward. So far, I see a lot of people with a very superficial knowledge of the fares system putting forward ideas which lack coherence.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Peter - don't forget that Northern offer a "North West Round Robin" ticket covering the Leeds-Blackburn-Preston-Lancaster-Carlisle-Settle-Skipton triangle for £32 [details on the Northern website].

Coupled with advance singles to/from Leeds/Preston, this may work out cheaper.

True, but it's highly unlikely that I would know more than a week in advance if I was going to be able to do such a trip, by which time the lower quotas would have long gone!

I do at least know which trains I'd do it on ( current timetable ) if I did get the opportunity: 07.20 Euston - Carlisle; 11.55 Carlisle - Leeds, 15.15 Leeds - King's Cross.