UK face coverings discussion

[SynthD]

Is that because you make claims about medical based decisions, get challenged about it and cannot find an answer?

No, it’s the China comparisons and other parts in the replies.
As you stated that so confidently, I’m seeing anti mask ‘science’ being backed with nothing, despite requests. It may well be both sides are wrong, I can only judge the louder part.

 

[43066]

No, it’s the China comparisons and other parts in the replies.
As you stated that so confidently, I’m seeing anti mask ‘science’ being backed with nothing, despite requests. It may well be both sides are wrong, I can only judge the louder part.

Scientific and medical decisions aren’t based on the assumption that something works, unless it can be proved not to.

The consensus up until this pandemic was that non clinical face coverings are ineffective. The government has told us the science has changed but not published it.

But it sounds like you unthinkingly swallow everything you are told...

 

[Smidster]

Could you put a number on high? And what it needs to be for the masks to be effective? Words like high are too flexible to be useful.

I can flip that back on you - Do you have evidence that compliance has been low or that there are millions of people falsely claiming exemptions? Of course some people are taking the mick, as they will with any policy, but my observation has always been that people are complying.

Did find some polling that put it at about 75% in the "always" category (Yougov) While that is lower than somewhere like France and Spain they don't seem to be doing better than us in terms of performance.

Making those who can't wear masks social pariahs is seriously damaging.

 

[initiation]

Could you put a number on high? And what it needs to be for the masks to be effective?

Surely if the science was so settled on masks you would have this data to hand? As someone said above, it is not about proving the negative.
Clearly masks are not the magic bullet people want or think they are. Otherwise Spain, parts of France and Italy who have had masks mandated in all public settings including outdoors would not be seeing big increases in cases. At best it seems the effect is very small, at worst it could make things worse.

but is that the one that we get to after half a million people die?

Are people still quoting the conclusively debunked Ferguson model... What is your source for an IFR of ~1%?

 

[DustyBin]

Masks work just like that herd immunity that many anti mask people crow about. It has to be a significant enough portion of the country to work. With people complaining about authoritarianism, others die to the disease rather than the frankly absurd dream of dying to the overbearing government of V for Vendetta. To be the ones complaining about mask mandates and going against them is to be the ones requiring longer mandates and lockdowns.

There are links to high quality peer-reviewed papers and journal articles on this thread which find face coverings in a community setting to be ineffective (at best). Can you point us to equivalent research supporting your argument?

You can repeat “masks save lives” as many times as you like, it doesn’t make it true though....

 

[bramling]

Was it due to a reservation? I was on a train a few weeks ago with a reserved seat and hilariously the seat was sat right behind the only other person then sat in that carriage.

No this was on GTR so no reservations.

 

[MikeWM]

Encountered my first 'mask vigilante' on the Tube yesterday - guy sitting opposite me asked in what seemed to be a *very* passive-aggressive manner if I had a mask. I drew his attention to the fact I was wearing a fairly obvious lanyard and pointed out he may want to consider a bit more carefully before he asked. At which point he got defensive and said that I shouldn't make a big deal of it. I observed that he started the conversation, he continued being defensive, and it seemed sensible to let the matter stop there.

The rest of the journey continued in a rather more normal silence until he got off, no doubt to ask some wheelchair users if they can walk, or something like that. Fun thing is that he had a bag with him that was taking up not just one but *two* extra seats with it! Considerate fellow.

Bit pathetic really, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to stand up for myself. A lot of people who can't wear masks would have more difficulty.

 

[Scotrail12]

Mentioned this in the thread about universities but my uni library has very strictly mandated face nappies, there are signs everywhere promoting them, staff more than happy to single you out if not being worn properly.

I'm slightly hard of hearing and having to do a tutorial wearing a mask is bonkers to me let alone sitting there hours to study so it almost feels like they're trying to deter people from using it. Surely if people are keeping a strict distance (easier to do than on trains for example), why force masks? Would wearing some filthy piece of cloth and limiting my hearing/speaking as a result be worth it??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

Just got told off by a member of staff for not wearing one in the library. Tried to explain that I can't hear/speak clearly with them, still got told to wear one.

 

[yorkie]

Could you put a number on high? And what it needs to be for the masks to be effective? Words like high are too flexible to be useful.

Given at least 10 per cent of the population is exempt from wearing masks, and given at least 90 per cent wear masks in settings where it is mandated in my experience, it could theoretically be close to averaging 100 per cent compliance.

Of course measuring compliance is impossible as many people who are exempt choose to wear them anyway and the opposite happens too. But these numbers probably balance themselves out overall. Indeed I can't remember the last time I saw someone without a mask in any of my local shops, despite a significant proportion of the population being exempt.

As for how many need to wear masks for the measure to be effective, well you tell me? How do you even measure effectiveness? I see no correlation between mandating of masks and infection rates in any country; the changes in infection rates seem to be driven by other factors such as people being inside more, build up of immunity and reducing close /prolonged contact with others.

If anything you tend to see a surge whenever masks are mandated but obviously I am not for a moment going to confuse the cause and effect, but if they made a big difference I'm sure this would be reflected in the statistics and you would We many more infections in Sweden than places that strictly mandate masks such as France, Spain and Italy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

Encountered my first 'mask vigilante' on the Tube yesterday - guy sitting opposite me asked in what seemed to be a *very* passive-aggressive manner if I had a mask. I drew his attention to the fact I was wearing a fairly obvious lanyard and pointed out he may want to consider a bit more carefully before he asked. At which point he got defensive and said that I shouldn't make a big deal of it. I observed that he started the conversation, he continued being defensive, and it seemed sensible to let the matter stop there.

The rest of the journey continued in a rather more normal silence until he got off, no doubt to ask some wheelchair users if they can walk, or something like that. Fun thing is that he had a bag with him that was taking up not just one but *two* extra seats with it! Considerate fellow.

Bit pathetic really, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to stand up for myself. A lot of people who can't wear masks would have more difficulty.

Sounds like you handled it very well indeed.

 

[43066]

Encountered my first 'mask vigilante' on the Tube yesterday - guy sitting opposite me asked in what seemed to be a *very* passive-aggressive manner if I had a mask. I drew his attention to the fact I was wearing a fairly obvious lanyard and pointed out he may want to consider a bit more carefully before he asked. At which point he got defensive and said that I shouldn't make a big deal of it. I observed that he started the conversation, he continued being defensive, and it seemed sensible to let the matter stop there.

The rest of the journey continued in a rather more normal silence until he got off, no doubt to ask some wheelchair users if they can walk, or something like that. Fun thing is that he had a bag with him that was taking up not just one but *two* extra seats with it! Considerate fellow.

Bit pathetic really, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to stand up for myself. A lot of people who can't wear masks would have more difficulty.

I think that’s a commendable reaction - I would struggle to be anything like as restrained in that situation. Hopefully he’ll soon get what’s coming to him when he picks on the wrong person.

It’s just yet another demonstration of the unpleasant, bullying side of human nature that this pandemic has exposed.

 

[bramling]

I think that’s a commendable reaction - I would struggle to be anything like as restrained in that situation. Hopefully he’ll soon get what’s coming to him when he picks on the wrong person.

It’s just yet another demonstration of the unpleasant, bullying side of human nature that this pandemic has exposed.

Agreed. I’m properly sick of mask vigilantes, and I certainly won’t be taking a measured line with such people. I’d go as far as to say that these vigilante types are a proper scourge who need to be eliminated.

 

[greyman42]

The train manager/guard made an announcement on a LNER York to London service that anyone not wearing a mask must be in possession of an exemption certificate or lanyard. Where do they get this rubbish from? I have made a complaint.

 

[MikeWM]

The train manager/guard made an announcement on a LNER York to London service that anyone not wearing a mask must be in possession of an exemption certificate or lanyard. Where do they get this rubbish from? I have made a complaint.

There really needs to be a standard and accurate announcement/notice on this across the country. (Dare I say it - similar to the wretched 'see it, say it, sorted').

Yesterday evening I was waiting around at Kings Cross for a Cambridge train, and in the space of 15 minutes I think there were at least 4 different automatic announcements played - in differing voices - about 'face coverings'. Why do they need so many different ones?

 

[Wychwood93]

There really needs to be a standard and accurate announcement/notice on this across the country. (Dare I say it - similar to the wretched 'see it, say it, sorted').

Yesterday evening I was waiting around at Kings Cross for a Cambridge train, and in the space of 15 minutes I think there were at least 4 different automatic announcements played - in differing voices - about 'face coverings'. Why do they need so many different ones?

As a contrast, I was toddling around yesterday and had two excellent announcements re. coverings on GWR - both appeared to be from the same script. The wearing them bit, yes, exemptions, yes, hidden disabilities, yes. I know these things get a touch repetitive, but these were actually refreshing by their clarity and lack of bossiness. Perhaps someone on here knows whether this is a new GWR script?

 

[Cbob]

Interesting discussion. Hopefully more research will emerge over time (unfortunately as we spend more time living with the virus)

Personally I feel we have to follow the experience of countries with previous experience of coronaviruses (SARS,MERS) who seem to have been more successful in controlling the current virus. Examples like Hong Kong, Australasia.

It is not yet 100% clear whether the association with mask-wearing and reduced viral transmission is a true causative one, or a confounder (whether people who wear masks are generally more careful and conscious about risks, wash their hands more often etc). However what is clear is that there is an association. Discipline with mask wearing as a society as a whole may be an important indicator about a society's ability to act in the common good.

I found it interesting the language that other countries use in terms of who is allowed not to wear masks. We talk about exemptions, exemption cards, 'I'm exempt' very much in the first person. Other places talk about 'reasonable excuses' not to wear a mask - i.e. you recognise that mask wearing is of benefit but you need to be excused from it, for whatever valid excuse you might have.

 

[DB]

Interesting discussion. Hopefully more research will emerge over time (unfortunately as we spend more time living with the virus)

Personally I feel we have to follow the experience of countries with previous experience of coronaviruses (SARS,MERS) who seem to have been more successful in controlling the current virus. Examples like Hong Kong, Australasia.

It is not yet 100% clear whether the association with mask-wearing and reduced viral transmission is a true causative one, or a confounder (whether people who wear masks are generally more careful and conscious about risks, wash their hands more often etc). However what is clear is that there is an association. Discipline with mask wearing as a society as a whole may be an important indicator about a society's ability to act in the common good.

I found it interesting the language that other countries use in terms of who is allowed not to wear masks. We talk about exemptions, exemption cards, 'I'm exempt' very much in the first person. Other places talk about 'reasonable excuses' not to wear a mask - i.e. you recognise that mask wearing is of benefit but you need to be excused from it, for whatever valid excuse you might have.

Australia has had repeated lockdowns and severely restricted travel between states, but it's still not gone away. New Zealand have tried to cut themselves off from the rest of the world, which is not sustainable other than in the short term. Not sure how you can describe either of those as successful.

Can you provide some evidence of this claimed associateion between mask-wearing and reduced viral transmission? Because despite all the claims of 'growing evidence', I've seen nothing which actually demonstrates this - only secondary analyses which cherry-pick primary studies (normally from healthcare settings) and draw the conclusion that masks work, while ignoring or severely downplaying the massive difference between healthcare settings and the general public.

The concept of having to be 'excused' for following normal human behaviour (i.e. not wearing a mask) is frankly pretty dystopian.

 

[Cbob]

Australia has had repeated lockdowns and severely restricted travel between states, but it's still not gone away. New Zealand have tried to cut themselves off from the rest of the world, which is not sustainable other than in the short term. Not sure how you can describe either of those as successful.

They are much more successful than UK's strategy. My wife is in Hong Kong at the moment, and after a 2 week quarantine she is free to experience a city where everything is open and businesses are functioning. Conversely the UK has been severely crippled by events.

Can you provide some evidence of this claimed associateion between mask-wearing and reduced viral transmission? Because despite all the claims of 'growing evidence', I've seen nothing which actually demonstrates this - only secondary analyses which cherry-pick primary studies (normally from healthcare settings) and draw the conclusion that masks work, while ignoring or severely downplaying the massive difference between healthcare settings and the general public.

I'll see what I can find

The concept of having to be 'excused' for following normal human behaviour (i.e. not wearing a mask) is frankly pretty dystopian.

Not to me, I'm quite happy to wear a mask if it helps, 'normal human behaviour' is a societal construct.

 

[Richard Scott]

They are much more successful than UK's strategy. My wife is in Hong Kong at the moment, and after a 2 week quarantine she is free to experience a city where everything is open and businesses are functioning. Conversely the UK has been severely crippled by events

Depends what you call successful, we're being crippled by decisions made by our politicians. A virus won't go away just because a few humans decide to try something and, sorry, but masks aren't the answer. Surely infection rates in most of Europe will tell you that.

 

[Cbob]

Definitely not the answer, but one part of reduction of transmission

 

[DB]

They are much more successful than UK's strategy. My wife is in Hong Kong at the moment, and after a 2 week quarantine she is free to experience a city where everything is open and businesses are functioning. Conversely the UK has been severely crippled by events.

I'll see what I can find

Not to me, I'm quite happy to wear a mask if it helps, 'normal human behaviour' is a societal construct.

Hong Kong is a small city state and contained it early - so not really comparable with the UK. Two-week quarantines are not going to be viable as a long term solution though, and if there isn't an effective vaccine relatively soon they will be back where they were early this year (the same applies to New Zealand). In the UK it achieved far more spread, so this approach is not possible, whether or not it is actually desirable in any case.

Before looking for proof that masks work, you might want to read back through this thread - someof the most widely quoted "proof" studies are easily debunked, and normally the claims in the accompanying press-release or synopsis aren't supported by the actual paper.

Normal human behaviour is a societal construct which has evolved over centuries - it is not something which should be casually thrown away on a measure which is not proven to have any benefit, but severely inhibits normal human interaction (if you cannot see someone's face, it can be hard to judge reactions).

 

[Richard Scott]

Definitely not the answer, but one part of reduction of transmission

How big a part? I have yet to be convinced they are of any use. Working with teenagers and watching how they use them they may as well play with a handkerchief just after blowing their nose. In the real world they just aren't used properly probably rendering them more of a problem than a prevention.

 

[221129]

but one part of reduction of transmission

Evidence please.

 

[DB]

Definitely not the answer, but one part of reduction of transmission

Just to reiterate, that is not a proven fact - some people suggest that they reduce transmission, but I am not aware of any actual evidence of this - and indeed mask mandates in various countries, some of which were not accompanied by any other new restrictions at the same time, show absolutely no benefit in terms of changing the trajectory of a graph of infections - and if they made any difference, the line would be expected to become flatter to at least some exent. This never seems to have happened.

 

[Domh245]

and if there isn't an effective vaccine relatively soon they will be back where they were early this year (the same applies to New Zealand). In the UK it achieved far more spread, so this approach is not possible, whether or not it is actually desirable in any case.

Worth noting that those countries that pursued the elimination strategy are dependant on a vaccine that will allow for effective eradication of Covid. None of the leading candidates are that type of vaccine

 

[Cbob]

I'll have a look at the evidence from the medical literature and ask my public health colleagues.

Societal constructs may have evolved over centuries, but every now and then something sudden happens which requires society to adapt. I personally think that masks are one example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

It's worth following Trisha Greenhalgh on Twitter, she is quite knowledgeable about it

 

[DB]

It's worth following Trisha Greenhalgh on Twitter, she is quite knowledgeable about it

Her writings have been discussed earlier in this thread. Knowledgeable wasn't one of the descriptions used...

 

[Richard Scott]

Societal constructs may have evolved over centuries, but every now and then something sudden happens which requires society to adapt. I personally think that masks are one example.

This isn't one of them

 

[Cbob]

Her writings have been discussed earlier in this thread. Knowledgeable wasn't one of the descriptions used...

I'll try and review what criticisms have been made on these pages. Her writings on critically analysing papers and evidence were essential reading in medical school - so if anyone can make a best judgment on what to do, she can.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

This isn't one of them

This is one of them

 

[big_rig]

I'll try and review what criticisms have been made on these pages. Her writings on critically analysing papers and evidence were essential reading in medical school - so if anyone can make a best judgment on what to do, she can.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==


This is one of them

E.g. I have commented on one of her papers on the so-called ‘long covid’ on here. Her research method was to ask self-selected groups on Twitter and Facebook what they thought about ‘long covid,’ copy and paste it into a ‘paper’ and then asked people on Twitter to ‘peer review’ it, picking and choosing which respondents to send the paper to. This is not science or critical analysis as I know it.

As far as I can tell the so-called research into masks is about the same: ‘oh, people in Japan do it (with no data on efficacy) and it’s a cultural, polite thing so we should too, anybody who disagrees is evil.’

Not somebody I would trust to critically engage with evidence. Or, less kindly, a mask obsessive.

 

[Yew]

I'll try and review what criticisms have been made on these pages. Her writings on critically analysing papers and evidence were essential reading in medical school - so if anyone can make a best judgment on what to do, she can.

Interesting how her vast expertise of literature reviewing processes seems to have completely missed all of the Randomised control trials on the subject, and instead focused on hastily implemented mechanistic studies.