UK face coverings discussion

[DustyBin]

Given I thought that that many people who had it in hospital got it while hospitalised, that is worrying, especially in this case with an elderly patient.

Yes, I'm really struggling to put it down to incompetence. In fact it looks like gross negligence, it's a conscious decision to disregard patient safety, to what end I've no idea.

 

[packermac]

I wonder how Arron felt during March-June when very few people were wearing masks and the level of infection and deaths was a lot higher. They don’t make me feel any safer, maybe because I’ve never felt particularly unsafe anyway.

Well as mask wearing is supposed to protect others (in this case the store workers) then seems a perfectly rational view to me. You can all debate the benefit of them but logic says if someone's breathing over you is reduced then ergo the chances of catching something are reduced, but certainly not removed.

 

[greyman42]

But masks save lives, come on keep up!

Is there any evidence regarding that?

 

[DustyBin]

Is there any evidence regarding that?

Err, no....

 

[bramling]

It's Project Fear in action - these people didn't feel unsafe until the government told them that they should do!

That sums it up perfectly. A very unfortunate state of affairs.

I am starting to be persuaded by the view that masks are a deliberately visible measure to keep reminding us of this, almost in a threatening way. Just like the “Obey the rules or go to a higher tier” matrix road sign messages seen round my way.

 

[DB]

Well as mask wearing is supposed to protect others (in this case the store workers) then seems a perfectly rational view to me. You can all debate the benefit of them but logic says if someone's breathing over you is reduced then ergo the chances of catching something are reduced, but certainly not removed.

But the reality is that nowhere has any confimed difference been observed in the infection statistics when masks were mandated.

 

[kristiang85]

Well as mask wearing is supposed to protect others (in this case the store workers) then seems a perfectly rational view to me. You can all debate the benefit of them but logic says if someone's breathing over you is reduced then ergo the chances of catching something are reduced, but certainly not removed.

I think the only reasonable explanation is a reduction in viral load - clearly infections don't go down (whether directly due to the mask or people take more risks with masks), but illness is less serious with a lighter viral load. That could be some justificiation. But only very loose. Right now, I'm waiting on the result of that Danish trial to be released.

By the way, I was very pro mask at the beginning of all this, but I just haven't seen any data to back them up yet. So I'm very inclined to make masks 'advisory' rather than 'mandatory'.

 

[35B]

I'm sorry to hear this, I hope the situation works out as well as these things ever can.

What's interesting though is that this isn't the first instance I've read of where somebody with no Covid symptoms has been sent to a Covid ward, albeit your cousin was successful in preventing it. It does beg the question, what on earth is going on?

My understanding is that hospitals are dividng into “red” (positive covid test, amber (no proof either way), and green (proven not to have Covid). Cases like that quoted are going to be difficult to handle, whichever way round - it is obviously wrong for someone of 88 whose fallen and broken their hip to be put in a Covid ward, but if the alternative is risking them spreading an undiagnosed infection into the wider hospital, then the admitting doctors have the devil’s own job to decide what to do.

 

[Ianno87]

That sums it up perfectly. A very unfortunate state of affairs.

I am starting to be persuaded by the view that masks are a deliberately visible measure to keep reminding us of this, almost in a threatening way. Just like the “Obey the rules or go to a higher tier” matrix road sign messages seen round my way.

There is *some* logic in that. A visible reminder that "there's still a Pandemic on, don't you know" so helps re-enforce social distancing, hand cleaning etc.

 

[VauxhallandI]

My understanding is that hospitals are dividng into “red” (positive covid test, amber (no proof either way), and green (proven not to have Covid). Cases like that quoted are going to be difficult to handle, whichever way round - it is obviously wrong for someone of 88 whose fallen and broken their hip to be put in a Covid ward, but if the alternative is risking them spreading an undiagnosed infection into the wider hospital, then the admitting doctors have the devil’s own job to decide what to do.

Wouldn't a Covid test help to clear that up? How would it explain that if you shout loudly enough you get not to go into the death ward?

I fear for the people who don't have anyone to stand up for them or have people that doff their caps to Dr's and say "Yes Sir"

 

[DustyBin]

My understanding is that hospitals are dividng into “red” (positive covid test, amber (no proof either way), and green (proven not to have Covid). Cases like that quoted are going to be difficult to handle, whichever way round - it is obviously wrong for someone of 88 whose fallen and broken their hip to be put in a Covid ward, but if the alternative is risking them spreading an undiagnosed infection into the wider hospital, then the admitting doctors have the devil’s own job to decide what to do.

If that's the case, surely a test should be carried out on arrival. Or at the very least check for symptoms (if possible) and if there aren't any assume Covid-free. I appreciate it's diffcult but there has to be a better way than simply condemning people to the Covid ward on the off chance they are already infected.

 

[bramling]

There is *some* logic in that. A visible reminder that "there's still a Pandemic on, don't you know" so helps re-enforce social distancing, hand cleaning etc.

It’s not exactly easy to forget there’s a pandemic on. Only have to switch on the TV for starters, yesterday’s interlude with the oil tanker was a refreshing change. And of course pretty much anywhere one goes there’s warning signs everywhere, with Britain’s answer to everything - restrictions.

Personally I don’t react well to threats, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

 

[trebor79]

If that's the case, surely a test should be carried out on arrival. Or at the very least check for symptoms (if possible) and if there aren't any assume Covid-free. I appreciate it's diffcult but there has to be a better way than simply condemning people to the Covid ward on the off chance they are already infected.

And if the soggy cloth over our faces is effective, then surely pulling the curtains round the bed bay until the test result is known would be equally effective?
I mean, mask work, right? So a great big mask should also work.

 

[35B]

If that's the case, surely a test should be carried out on arrival. Or at the very least check for symptoms (if possible) and if there aren't any assume Covid-free. I appreciate it's diffcult but there has to be a better way than simply condemning people to the Covid ward on the off chance they are already infected.

Test results aren’t instant, and the point of assuming patients are infectious is to prevent spread - if you have a “clean” ward, then the risk of spreading infection to others is a higher risk than that to an individual patient of being put in a ward where patients are treated as though infected. It’s worth remembering that this has a significant effect on how medical staff can work.

Knowing someone whose husband died last year from Alzheimer’s, and having seen him go downhill over 15 years, I have tremendous sympathy for anyone caught in this position - there are no good answers in this situation.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Test results aren’t instant, and the point of assuming patients are infectious is to prevent spread - if you have a “clean” ward, then the risk of spreading infection to others is a higher risk than that to an individual patient of being put in a ward where patients are treated as though infected. It’s worth remembering that this has a significant effect on how medical staff can work.

Knowing someone whose husband died last year from Alzheimer’s, and having seen him go downhill over 15 years, I have tremendous sympathy for anyone caught in this position - there are no good answers in this situation.

We assume all patients have it for no good reason? Most people of his description have been locked up and cocooned for months.

Do we test staff everyday?

 

[yorkie]

Lanyards make some people feel safe:

Supermarket staff: 'We feel unsafe when customers don't wear masks'

One shop worker tells us he wants to find a new job because of customers who don't wear masks.

www.bbc.co.uk

"As soon as someone walks through the store without a mask or a lanyard showing they're exempt, it automatically makes me uneasy."

This is completely irrational; I don't blame the person though, I blame the authoritarian regime we're currently living in, and the media reporting.

 

[trainophile]

Lanyards make some people feel safe:

Supermarket staff: 'We feel unsafe when customers don't wear masks'

One shop worker tells us he wants to find a new job because of customers who don't wear masks.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is completely irrational; I don't blame the person though, I blame the authoritarian regime we're currently living in, and the media reporting.

I was just going to post the same sort of thing re. Aaron apparently feeling safer if the customer has a mask or a lanyard. I think he is missing the point about exemption lanyards - they don't actually prevent the wearer spreading whatever bugs they might be carrying any more than a maskless customer.

 

[MikeWM]

If I actually thought that masks achieved anything at all - fortunately I don't - then I'd be particularly irritated by the lack of hygiene shown by those wearing them.

At least four times in just one hour earlier today in the city centre I had someone on the street near me, presumably having just come out of a shop, whip off their mask and wave it around in such a careless manner that, if there actually were a load of viruses that had been trapped on the inside of the mask, I'd have got a torrent of them all over me.

 

[yorkie]

I was just going to post the same sort of thing re. Aaron apparently feeling safer if the customer has a mask or a lanyard. I think he is missing the point about exemption lanyards - they don't actually prevent the wearer spreading whatever bugs they might be carrying any more than a maskless customer.

Masks don't prevent it either, but I know what you mean

 

[trebor79]

I was just going to post the same sort of thing re. Aaron apparently feeling safer if the customer has a mask or a lanyard. I think he is missing the point about exemption lanyards - they don't actually prevent the wearer spreading whatever bugs they might be carrying any more than a maskless customer.

Or even a masked customer!

Given the whole charade is just a placebo to "make people feel safe" (the words used by various ministers at the time the mandate came in), it's entirely reasonable that a lanyard makes the hard of thinking feel as "safe" as a make does.

 

[johnnychips]

The one group of people really exposed to the virus quite early in the lockdown, once the NHS had got their PPE sorted, were supermarket workers. We did not see a massive spread of the virus among them.

 

[duncanp]

I was just going to post the same sort of thing re. Aaron apparently feeling safer if the customer has a mask or a lanyard. I think he is missing the point about exemption lanyards - they don't actually prevent the wearer spreading whatever bugs they might be carrying any more than a maskless customer.

Feeling safe and actually being safe are not the same thing.

Even if someone does walk into a supermarket without wearing a mask or a lanyard, the risk of catching something from that person is negligible unless you spend more than 15 minutes in close contact with them.

It is far more important to observe social distancing and hand sanitising.

 

[DB]

Feeling safe and actually being safe are not the same thing.

Even if someone does walk into a supermarket without wearing a mask or a lanyard, the risk of catching something from that person is negligible unless you spend more than 15 minutes in close contact with them.

It is far more important to observe social distancing and hand sanitising.

Generally the only time staff at the supermarket might be close to a customer for more than a minute even is at the tills - and those have the ubiquitous perspex screens anyway in pretty much all cases.

 

[Bikeman78]

This article here describes what it utterly wrong with mandated face mask wearing - the idea that they make you "safe":

Supermarket staff: 'We feel unsafe when customers don't wear masks'

One shop worker tells us he wants to find a new job because of customers who don't wear masks.

www.bbc.co.uk

.

I'd like to know when Arron started wearing a mask. At my local supermarket, masks were not required until sometime in August. Prior to that hardly anyone wore them. During the period that customers had to wear them but staff did not, not many staff bothered with them.

 

[Richard Scott]

Generally the only time staff at the supermarket might be close to a customer for more than a minute even is at the tills - and those have the ubiquitous perspex screens anyway in pretty much all cases.

It's all got out of control, first it was 2m and anything less was up to 15 minutes, now if it's 15m for 15nanoseconds without a mask someone is quivering like a flower. Again it's poor communication from politicians. They've scared people and some don't have the sense to research and reason. In reality Arron just needs to stop being so pathetic but that may be easy for me to say as he's been brainwashed by the government and BBC are out there fishing for another scaremongering story. Damn mask policy has got a lot to answer to.
Even heard today that an article in Times Educational Supplement suggest that (so experts say, those wretched experts again) pupils should wear face coverings in lessons too. No, no and no again. What are these people trying to do? Sorry don't have a link to article.

 

[trainophile]

That was my point really - Aaron rightly or wrongly "feels" safe when confronted with a mask wearing customer, and he also seems to imply that he "feels" safe if someone is wearing a lanyard. We all know[1] that the whole premise is a load of codswallop, but Aaron might well be one of hundreds who share a similar misconception.

[1]I must admit here - I was on a train yesterday and a chap sat in the drop-down seats in the wheelchair space, so as to be with his large dog and small child in pushchair, and he didn't have a mask or a lanyard, and being only about four feet from me for over an hour I was feeling somewhat exposed. (Despite my scepticism about the whole thing .)

I can only assume he came under the "anxiety" category as he had no visible reason not to be compliant, but I think I would have felt more understanding if he was showing some reason for his exemption. It's not so much the risk, just the fact that as it's the law it would be reassuring to know why some people don't have to obey it.

Another guy on an earlier train across the aisle from me wore his over his chin for the entire journey. It's about time they abandoned any semblance of trying to enforce this as it only annoys people who do bother when they are sat near to others who don't.

 

[yorkie]

I can only assume he came under the "anxiety" category as he had no visible reason not to be compliant

what do people with asthma etc look like?

, but I think I would have felt more understanding if he was showing some reason for his exemption.

as I feared, people who are exempt are effectively forced to wear lanyards...

 

[trainophile]

I don't know much about asthma but at no time did he appear to be breathing anything other than gently and normally, even when he dozed off for a while, and when the rest of his young family who were sitting elsewhere kept charging up to him demanding snacks from the bag he seemed to be in charge of!

I appreciate it's controversial, but if there's a law and some people are not required to abide by it, surely it isn't unreasonable for there to be some indication that that is the case, otherwise people do just assume that the person is a "won't" rather than a "can't". It's human nature.

 

[Richard Scott]

I was on a train yesterday and a chap sat in the drop-down seats in the wheelchair space, so as to be with his large dog and small child in pushchair, and he didn't have a mask or a lanyard, and being only about four feet from me for over an hour I was feeling somewhat exposed. (Despite my scepticism about the whole thing .)

I do tend to agree, if we see people without one even us sceptics sometimes feel a bit uneasy. Saw a chap on a train a couple of months back without one then thought to myself actually it's non of my business why he hasn't got one and this is how life used to be. We've all been indoctrinated to some degree or another by all of this but some of us can easily think around it, others take it at face value.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't know much about asthma but at no time did he appear to be breathing anything other than gently and normally, even when he dozed off for a while, and when the rest of his young family who were sitting elsewhere kept charging up to him demanding snacks from the bag he seemed to be in charge of!

I appreciate it's controversial, but if there's a law and some people are not required to abide by it, surely it isn't unreasonable for there to be some indication that that is the case, otherwise people do just assume that the person is a "won't" rather than a "can't". It's human nature.

If there weren't "won'ts", the "can'ts" wouldn't have anything to worry about...