UK face coverings discussion

[35B]

That rather depends whether it's a crime or a "crime" - if you see someone attacking someone else, or breaking in to somewhere, then of course it should be reported. If the "crime" is not wearing a mask, or having a few more people round to visit than the permitted number, reporting this would be pretty obnoxious behaviour.

So in other words, the definition of crime is personal and subjective, and has little to do with the law?

 

[duncanp]

Why on earth do the authorities allow this ?
One can say what one likes about TFL but they would never allow this stupidity to happen on a tendered London Bus.
If anyone did this to my offspring they would find me becoming extremely noisy and threatening them with the equality act

Living in Birmingham, I have to say that this is very much the exception to the rule.

Most drivers for National Express West Midlands don't say anything if you get on the bus without a mask, as they know it would be too much hassle for them. I have only seen one grumpy bus driver have a go at a passenger who got on without a mask.

Conversely, at the beginning of the pandemic in April, I experienced a very pleasant NXWM bus driver who was giving everyone a free squirt of hand sanitiser as they boarded the bus.

Not that this excuses the behaviour of the driver in question. The incident should be reported, and the driver subject to disciplinary action if the allegations are found to be true.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I agree 100% and enjoy asking people who favour snitching what they would have done if they had been neighbours of Anne Frank
Having said this shops that claim it is the law without mentioning exemptions need to be called out for telling blatant lies

I posted a meme on here that was taken down.
It said

“The people who were hiding Anne Frank were breaking the law.
The people who killed her were following it”

 

[Bletchleyite]

To compare this situation with that situation is rather disproportionate, though.

 

[DB]

So in other words, the definition of crime is personal and subjective, and has little to do with the law?

You seem to have a very authoritarian approach.

If people don't think something should be a crime then it's entirely up to them not to report it.

The government is undermining the whole system by creating all these trivial "crimes" at the moment - and incidentally their legal basis could be shaky anyway given the misuse of emergency powers to enact them.

 

[Scrotnig]

Does that extend to all laws? I get very uncomfortable when I see terms like "snitch" or "grass" used about reporting crimes, because the extension - which I don't assume of you - is that we, as individuals, should not in any way get involved with reporting or aiding the prosecution of crime.

It rather depends. I'd probably report a burglary if I saw one actually in progress, for instance. I wouldn't report my neighbour for having seven people in his garden. I guess there's a line somewhere in between those extremes, but I couldn't tell you where it is.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

To compare this situation with that situation is rather disproportionate, though.

Now, yes.
It does highlight what blind observance to all laws, now matter how they are conceived (for example, without parliamentary scrutiny) can ultimately lead to. Fostering a culture of snitching lead to someone informing on her shielders.
The new powers for any ‘authorised person’ to use ‘reasonable force’ to detain someone not self-isolating are the thin end of a potentially disturbing wedge. Jumped-up council officials need their powers reigned-in, not extended, IMHO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Jumped-up council officials need their powers reigned-in, not extended, IMHO.

This aspect certainly concerns me. Police do policing, not others. We need to be willing to pay for a properly sized Police Force.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was instructed to put a mask on on the (outdoor) platforms at St. Erth station this morning by someone who was apparently a member of GWR staff.

I replied “they aren’t required outdoors” and she said “they are, I’m afraid, on the platform”. I ignored her and walked away (without putting a face covering on), and nothing else happened.

Can someone clarify the position with regards to mask on stations? Initially I'm sure they were only required on board public transport, not at stations. Has that changed? In Wales, no one cared about wearing masks at stations but when they were mandated in shops a few weeks ago, suddenly they are expected to be worn at Cardiff Central too.

 

[Yew]

I enjoyed wearing a mask to take three steps from the door of an empty pub, to a table. Really highlighted how silly these new rules are.

 

[Huntergreed]

Can someone clarify the position with regards to mask on stations? Initially I'm sure they were only required on board public transport, not at stations. Has that changed? In Wales, no one cared about wearing masks at stations but when they were mandated in shops a few weeks ago, suddenly they are expected to be worn at Cardiff Central too.

In England, the law is they must be worn in the enclosed areas of stations (ie in buildings/waiting rooms), but not on open platforms.

In Scotland, the law is they must be worn anywhere in the station, including open platforms (illlogical Sturgeon one-upmanship as usual)

Unsure of Welsh law

 

[Bletchleyite]

In England, the law is they must be worn in the enclosed areas of stations (ie in buildings/waiting rooms), but not on open platforms.

In Scotland, the law is they must be worn anywhere in the station, including open platforms (illlogical Sturgeon one-upmanship as usual)

However English TOC and NR policy seems to be to apply the Scottish rule everywhere.

 

[MattA7]

My view is that "snitching" is not on, full stop. Even if I happen to agree with the reasons for the law believed to have been transgressed. I don;t want the country turned into a nation of snitchers.

So, I firmly believe shops and businesses SHOULD point out there are exemptions but I'm not going to snitch on any that don't. I'll simply not give them my business.

I wonder if those who report non-mask wearing and more than 6 in a house (Scotland has a total ban on visiting other houses) also go around calling the cops when they see a car on double yellows or see a driver/passenger not wearing a seatbelt

 

[bramling]

To compare this situation with that situation is rather disproportionate, though.

Nonetheless it’s a lesson from history which we should not ignore or forget.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

To compare this situation with that situation is rather disproportionate, though.

Now, yes.
It does highlight what blind observance to all laws, now matter how they are conceived (for example, without parliamentary scrutiny) can ultimately lead to. Why would you need a Stasi-like force if you can turn people against each other?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2020 ==

Nonetheless it’s a lesson from history which we should not ignore or forget.

Exactly.

 

[Richard Scott]

This aspect certainly concerns me. Police do policing, not others. We need to be willing to pay for a properly sized Police Force.

That won't be happening now after the £300billion plus blown on the virus.

 

[Bikeman78]

I wonder if those who report non-mask wearing and more than 6 in a house (Scotland has a total ban on visiting other houses) also go around calling the cops when they see a car on double yellows or see a driver/passenger not wearing a seatbelt

I think the Police have managed to rid themselves of responsibility for parking enforcement. The copper I spoke to the other day certainly wasn't interested.

 

[MikeWM]

My local newsagent has a home made sign saying 'Please wear a face covering'.

In which case he's already doing rather better than a large majority of businesses by adding 'please'.

The last three days when I was on holiday I saw hundreds of mask signs in shops etc. What I found most disappointing was not only the lack of mentioning of exemptions on all but a tiny percentage of signs, but the lack of *basic manners* on most signs. 'No mask, no entry' is common, as are blunt signs that just say 'wear a mask'. I also saw lots of signs saying things like 'wear a mask or STAY OUTSIDE', or 'wear a mask, DON'T MAKE US ASK'. Pictograms of unmasked faces next to a red X appear regularly too. One shop was even displaying a poster from the San Francisco Department of Health (?!).

I'd say less than 20% of signs I saw said 'please' or 'thank you' or similar. Fewer than 5% mentioned exemptions. I've seen precisely one sign that said 'exemptions welcome' - good for them!

It isn't hard to deduce from a quick walk down a high street that the exempt aren't welcome. This really has brought out the unpleasant bossy side in people - at least via the passive medium of signs, if not in real-life encounters.

As it turns out, it is actually mostly not the case that the exempt aren't welcome - as I said above, I went to a lot of places over the last three days and wasn't challenged once - but any effort to make this signage more friendly appears very necessary.

 

[DB]

I've seen precisely one sign that said 'exemptions welcome' - good for them!

Not seen any like that near me, but if there were I would certainly make a point of going in there if they sold anything I needed.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Nonetheless it’s a lesson from history which we should not ignore or forget.

The 100 Gestapo could control 300,000 people, not because they knew anything but because they were told everything. The underlying fact is the same.

 

[MikeWM]

As of yesterday, the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Undertakings) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (at section 2 (6)) require that, in respect of relevant premises, the occupier must either:

• Display a conspicuous notice at the entrance around the wearing of face coverings; or
• Take other steps to ensure anyone who enters the premises without wearing a face covering is informed of the requirements.

In either case, the information to be provided is that:

• A face covering must be worn on the premises
• unless you have an exemption
• or a reasonable excuse not to wear one

Notices are also meant to name the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) Regulations 2020.

I support the idea because I find the current signage to be woefully inadequate, as I've mentioned above.

However, how is anyone supposed to keep up with all of this? We have an SI that amends another SI that was related to hospitality, this renames that SI to remove the word hospitality, but it still *mostly* refers to hospitality, apart from these new bits that apply more widely. Is everyone now supposed to monitor every SI published (often many per day), even those whose titles seem unrelated?

This is an utterly absurd way to be creating offenses with serious penalties, even setting aside for a moment the legitimacy or otherwise of the way the SI process is being used.

 

[35B]

It rather depends. I'd probably report a burglary if I saw one actually in progress, for instance. I wouldn't report my neighbour for having seven people in his garden. I guess there's a line somewhere in between those extremes, but I couldn't tell you where it is.

That's a fair answer, and I agree that I would apply a sense of proportionality to what I would report. My issue, though, is when highly emotive and oppressive terms like "snitch" get used, which suggest rather more than just a judgement call/

It does highlight what blind observance to all laws, now matter how they are conceived (for example, without parliamentary scrutiny) can ultimately lead to. Why would you need a Stasi-like force if you can turn people against each other?

A comparison that in it's complete lack of proportion (including over what I agree is a complete failure of process) undermines the very valid point that justice is about more than just following the law.

 

[Richard Scott]

I'd say less than 20% of signs I saw said 'please' or 'thank you' or similar. Fewer than 5% mentioned exemptions. I've seen precisely one sign that said 'exemptions welcome' - good for them!

Possibly we could have a thread for something like this (if I knew of a business I could post about I'd start one) and promote businesses with polite notices? I know it makes little difference but at least it's something positive and could do with that right now.

 

[packermac]

I wonder if those who report non-mask wearing and more than 6 in a house (Scotland has a total ban on visiting other houses) also go around calling the cops when they see a car on double yellows or see a driver/passenger not wearing a seatbelt

They may not do it for parking but both Dorset and Hampshire police make a big thing about asking people to upload dash cam footage of bad driving and Hampshire were on the local news last week taking of how many prosecutions they have achieved from public footage.

 

[island]

However English TOC and NR policy seems to be to apply the Scottish rule everywhere.

My experiences haven’t matched this; Southeastern (my home TOC) is pretty hands-off and there is no expectation of wearing face coverings on open air platforms. I’ve been using GWR a lot in the last few days and besides a few staff on the St. Ives Bay line it has been the same.

I suspect the matter comes down to how hot local area management are on it.

I support the idea because I find the current signage to be woefully inadequate, as I've mentioned above.

However, how is anyone supposed to keep up with all of this? We have an SI that amends another SI that was related to hospitality, this renames that SI to remove the word hospitality, but it still *mostly* refers to hospitality, apart from these new bits that apply more widely. Is everyone now supposed to monitor every SI published (often many per day), even those whose titles seem unrelated?

This is an utterly absurd way to be creating offenses with serious penalties, even setting aside for a moment the legitimacy or otherwise of the way the SI process is being used.

I agree entirely. It is regulation diarrhoea.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Really disconcerting that BTP/regular police are pouncing on maskless passengers on my travels this week. Funny that they hang around in numbers rather than solitary...

 

[Skimpot flyer]

They may not do it for parking but both Dorset and Hampshire police make a big thing about asking people to upload dash cam footage of bad driving and Hampshire were on the local news last week taking of how many prosecutions they have achieved from public footage.

It could be argued by some that a member of the public constantly looking for someone driving badly is in fact themselves ‘driving without due care and attention’ ...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2020 ==
Back on topic...

Well tonight I witnessed at first hand a ‘mask rage’ incident in a London Overground train.
A grey-haired man in his fifties got on at Imperial Wharf, sat down, looked around and saw a black teenage female on her phone, with a bare face (such horror!). Without any polite enquiry, he just bellowed
‘Put your f***ing face mask on! IT’S THE LAW!’
The girl broke off her conversation and said ‘excuse me, but can you not swear? That’s so rude!’ before resuming her conversation without covering her face (no covering in sight). Ironically, an older lady sat directly opposite him was wearing a mask under her nose, covering her mouth only, but he said nothing to her...
The guy sat there quietly fuming, and then ranted at staff on the footbridge at Clapham Junction.
There must have been at least 10-15 people on this train who heard the exchange, but no-one said a word. Given the guy was a lot bulkier physically than me, I didn’t - to my shame - intervene.
Is this the kind of society we want to have? I certainly don’t. She could have been exempt for all he knew.

 

[Bikeman78]

It could be argued by some that a member of the public constantly looking for someone driving badly is in fact themselves ‘driving without due care and attention’ ...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2020 ==
Back on topic...

Well tonight I witnessed at first hand a ‘mask rage’ incident in a London Overground train.
A grey-haired man in his fifties got on at Imperial Wharf, sat down, looked around and saw a black teenage female on her phone, with a bare face (such horror!). Without any polite enquiry, he just bellowed
‘Put your f***ing face mask on! IT’S THE LAW!’
The girl broke off her conversation and said ‘excuse me, but can you not swear? That’s so rude!’ before resuming her conversation without covering her face (no covering in sight). Ironically, an older lady sat directly opposite him was wearing a mask under her nose, covering her mouth only, but he said nothing to her...
The guy sat there quietly fuming, and then ranted at staff on the footbridge at Clapham Junction.
There must have been at least 10-15 people on this train who heard the exchange, but no-one said a word. Given the guy was a lot bulkier physically than me, I didn’t - to my shame - intervene.
Is this the kind of society we want to have? I certainly don’t. She could have been exempt for all he knew.

I saw something similar on the Circle line a few weeks ago. Man in his 60s/70s had a go at four people in their 20s for not wearing masks. Then he walked along the train and found someone else to pick on. Sooner or later he's going to pick on the wrong person.

 

[londiscape]

Well tonight I witnessed at first hand a ‘mask rage’ incident in a London Overground train.
A grey-haired man in his fifties got on at Imperial Wharf, sat down, looked around and saw a black teenage female on her phone, with a bare face (such horror!). Without any polite enquiry, he just bellowed
‘Put your f***ing face mask on! IT’S THE LAW!’
The girl broke off her conversation and said ‘excuse me, but can you not swear? That’s so rude!’ before resuming her conversation without covering her face (no covering in sight). Ironically, an older lady sat directly opposite him was wearing a mask under her nose, covering her mouth only, but he said nothing to her...
The guy sat there quietly fuming, and then ranted at staff on the footbridge at Clapham Junction.
There must have been at least 10-15 people on this train who heard the exchange, but no-one said a word. Given the guy was a lot bulkier physically than me, I didn’t - to my shame - intervene.
Is this the kind of society we want to have? I certainly don’t. She could have been exempt for all he knew.

That is infuriating - if I was physically large enough to throw him off the train I would have been tempted to do so (I'm not - by the way, I am feeble in physical strength) - but he at least deserved a good shouting back, the ignorant busybody (and other words which would be censored on the forum)

 

[Bantamzen]

It could be argued by some that a member of the public constantly looking for someone driving badly is in fact themselves ‘driving without due care and attention’ ...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2020 ==
Back on topic...

Well tonight I witnessed at first hand a ‘mask rage’ incident in a London Overground train.
A grey-haired man in his fifties got on at Imperial Wharf, sat down, looked around and saw a black teenage female on her phone, with a bare face (such horror!). Without any polite enquiry, he just bellowed
‘Put your f***ing face mask on! IT’S THE LAW!’
The girl broke off her conversation and said ‘excuse me, but can you not swear? That’s so rude!’ before resuming her conversation without covering her face (no covering in sight). Ironically, an older lady sat directly opposite him was wearing a mask under her nose, covering her mouth only, but he said nothing to her...
The guy sat there quietly fuming, and then ranted at staff on the footbridge at Clapham Junction.
There must have been at least 10-15 people on this train who heard the exchange, but no-one said a word. Given the guy was a lot bulkier physically than me, I didn’t - to my shame - intervene.
Is this the kind of society we want to have? I certainly don’t. She could have been exempt for all he knew.

I saw something similar on the Circle line a few weeks ago. Man in his 60s/70s had a go at four people in their 20s for not wearing masks. Then he walked along the train and found someone else to pick on. Sooner or later he's going to pick on the wrong person.

I'm the kind of person that would say something, and frankly if I see anything like it I will be doing. Obviously this is not something everyone will be comfortable with, and I fully understand that, but I'm feeling kind of militant right now & I have the busybodies firmly in my sights!