UK face coverings discussion

[bramling]

Do you have any evidence for that rather bold claim?

Given the way most people chose not to wear them before the law was introduced, it’s reasonable to infer that people weren’t wildly keen. Likewise the massive amount of incorrect use being seen continues to suggest a lack of buy-in (though the misuse applies equally to some enthusiasts by all account).

I think a lack of buy-in also actually explains some of the nastiness. Whilst there’s the crazed maskophiles who subscribe to the Hancock granny-killer nonsense, I don’t doubt that for many people it’s a more simply “I’m hacked off at having to wear a mask, so it’s not fair that I have to and you don’t”.

 

[big_rig]

The regulations governing mask wearing do not prohibit asking questions of someone claiming an exemption; they state that those not wearing masks should not routinely be asked why they aren't wearing a mask. The police have discretion on this matter; based on what is reported, I give the benefit of the doubt to the police over those claiming the police were in the wrong.

I went and looked this up out of interest. It is clear as mud.

The regulations themselves are silent on the questioning of exemptions. The explanatory paper notes that the list of 'reasonable excuses' is non-exhaustive, but also that "as with the wider coronavirus restrictions an authorised person is expected to use their discretion and judgement when considering reasonable excuses and exemptions in the circumstances."

About as much thought seems to have gone into this as the rest of anything to do with the virus. Are 'non-exhaustive reasonable excuses' an authorised person asking what your specific reason for distress is (i.e divulging your medical history in public to a contracted security goon with a train load of people watching, who uses their discretion and judgement to decide whether that's 'good enough'?)? Or is it a different example like, say if you lost your covering, and were getting on the last train of the night at a station which didn't sell any, and the train guard lets you on (or not) otherwise you'd be stranded far from home?

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020 (revoked)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[greyman42]

Do you have any evidence for that rather bold claim?

No i don't but it is pretty much a given that if people did not have to wear them in shops/trains then very few would wear them.

 

[43066]

The regulations themselves are silent on the questioning of exemptions. The explanatory paper notes that the list of 'reasonable excuses' is non-exhaustive, but also that "as with the wider coronavirus restrictions an authorised person is expected to use their discretion and judgement when considering reasonable excuses and exemptions in the circumstances."

About as much thought seems to have gone into this as the rest of anything to do with the virus. Are 'non-exhaustive reasonable excuses' an authorised person asking what your specific reason for distress is (i.e divulging your medical history in public to a contracted security goon with a train load of people watching, who uses their discretion and judgement to decide whether that's 'good enough'?)? Or is it a different example like, say if you lost your covering, and were getting on the last train of the night at a station which didn't sell any, and the train guard lets you on (or not) otherwise you'd be stranded far from home?

There’s accompanying guidance posted upthread (on the gov.uk website) which makes it clear that exemptions are not generally required to be evidenced, and that there’s no requirement to carry any kind of exemption badge or lanyard etc.

Looking at both the legislation and the guidance together, the intention appears to be that people can “self certify” themselves as exempt and shouldn’t generally be questioned beyond this.

As law enforcement officials, I suppose police officers might be able to justify questioning a person about their exemption in more detail if their suspicions are aroused for some other reason, but if they cannot ask for any evidence, one has to ask what the purpose of this would be.

Whatever the circumstances, the situation was clearly badly handled by the officer concerned.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I went and looked this up out of interest. It is clear as mud.

The regulations themselves are silent on the questioning of exemptions. The explanatory paper notes that the list of 'reasonable excuses' is non-exhaustive, but also that "as with the wider coronavirus restrictions an authorised person is expected to use their discretion and judgement when considering reasonable excuses and exemptions in the circumstances."

About as much thought seems to have gone into this as the rest of anything to do with the virus. Are 'non-exhaustive reasonable excuses' an authorised person asking what your specific reason for distress is (i.e divulging your medical history in public to a contracted security goon with a train load of people watching, who uses their discretion and judgement to decide whether that's 'good enough'?)? Or is it a different example like, say if you lost your covering, and were getting on the last train of the night at a station which didn't sell any, and the train guard lets you on (or not) otherwise you'd be stranded far from home?

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020 (revoked)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

www.legislation.gov.uk

Someone stated on one of the threads that "I've forgotten my covering" is one of the exemptions, but I didn't check that out.

A family member had one break (elastic came unglued) whilst in a shop. Should you leave the shop immediately, carry on maskless, or hold the broken mask to your face (they did the latter, rendering the do not touch your face rule pointless)?

Given that the gentleman in the video is, apparantly, well known to the authorites, the correct course of action for non wearing of face covering would surely to have been to issue him with a penalty notice, the gentleman can then decide whether to pay it or neglect to pay it and see if he is prosecuted, then to have his day in court for that. Perhaps the officer knew he was on a sticky wicket re issuing a penalty notice but couldn't back down. A situation not exactly uncommon with the police.

 

[MikeWM]

Looking at both the legislation and the guidance together, the intention appears to be that people can “self certify” themselves as exempt and shouldn’t generally be questioned beyond this.

As law enforcement officials, I suppose police officers might be able to justify questioning a person about their exemption in more detail if their suspicions are aroused for some other reason, but if they cannot ask for any evidence, one has to ask what the purpose of this would be.

I agree it is very unclear, possibly deliberately so. In my opinion, it is reasonable [1] for a police officer (but no-one else) to ask on which grounds one is claiming an exemption, but assuming you give a sensible answer, it is hard to see how any further questioning is going to get any further. (If I tell them - accurately - that wearing a mask will cause me breathing issues within 15-20 minutes or so, are they going to tell me to put one on and then come back to see how ill I look later on in the journey?!)

As an aside, was just looking at the Welsh legislation (as I'm thinking of spending a couple of days there later this month), and I see the 'severe distress' grounds for exemption in English and Scottish law is *not* listed there, though the other grounds look similar (albeit with a couple of stricter tweaks, eg. the eating/drinking exemption says "if this is allowed on the vehicle and is reasonably necessary (for example due to the length of the journey").

It also says 'An operator of a public transport service to which [the face coverings rule] applies must provide information to passengers about the requirement to wear face coverings on their vehicles.' which seems an odd thing to put into a law. Hmm.

Does anyone have any experience of exemption claiming on trains in Wales?


[1] insomuch as anything about any of this is reasonable...

 

[43066]

I agree it is very unclear, possibly deliberately so. In my opinion, it is reasonable [1] for a police officer (but no-one else) to ask on which grounds one is claiming an exemption, but assuming you give a sensible answer, it is hard to see how any further questioning is going to get any further. (If I tell them - accurately - that wearing a mask will cause me breathing issues within 15-20 minutes or so, are they going to tell me to put one on and then come back to see how ill I look later on in the journey?!)

Tellingly it was reported above that the guy on the train had been charged with (IIRC) a public order offence and assaulting someone. Failure to wear a mask was notable by its absence.

 

[Seehof]

In York this morning in Tesco’s near the college I would say a good third of the students were not wearing masks or were challenged. At York station in the afternoon a significant were not wearing masks - whilst some may be exempt and had the hidden disabilities lanyard, some clearly were not exempt and just could not be bothered. At Tesco’s not at the station where there were police no one was challenged. This is not going to give confidence to anyone who is vulnerable or just plain nervous at going out.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

"Face masks" will be required for those aged over 11 in shops in Caerphilly as of 6pm today.

Coronavirus in Wales: Caerphilly county to go under local lockdown

People will not be able to leave or enter without good reason from 18:00 BST on Tuesday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Face masks will be required for everyone over 11 in shops and people will not be able to meet indoors.

I take it the Welsh Governement is trying to tackle this "outbreak", caerphilly?

 

[43066]

In York this morning in Tesco’s near the college I would say a good third of the students were not wearing masks or were challenged.

I go into Tesco most days, I never wear a covering, and I’ve never been challenged.

whilst some may be exempt and had the hidden disabilities lanyard, some clearly were not exempt and just could not be bothered.

What on Earth qualifies you to judge whether or not someone is exempt just by looking at them? That’s the tricky thing about hidden disabilities - the clue is in the “hidden”.

 

[big_rig]

Tellingly it was reported above that the guy on the train had been charged with (IIRC) a public order offence and assaulting someone. Failure to wear a mask was notable by its absence.

Huh. I didn't know that. Personally I do not care too much for the specifics of this particular case (e.g I wouldn't be bothered if police etc did have the power to make a judgement in 'extreme circumstances' about whether say a large group of people travelling together and laughing about it all had an exemption, but I also think the action of wearing one is basically irrelevant and doing something about it would be more hassle than its worth so whatever - I just wear the stupid thing as the price of entry), but it is concerning that we are back in another situation where regulations say one thing, guidance on a website which is easily updated and changed says another, then you get into the 'spirit' or the 'letter' of said guidance and/or regulations, and we know how well that worked out last time..

The clarity around these measures is also important because frankly it is depressing how all of these (in the grand scheme of things) inconsequential rules have either made or unleashed a significant percentage of curtain twitchers and petty authoritarians, informed or otherwise, in the population, including people who should know better. I was disappointed this morning for instance to check Twitter and see somebody who works on the railway tweeting about people (before sunrise) not wearing masks on an open air platform, and sending tweets to the TOC to play messages to tell them off. There's no requirement to wear one on an open air platform, but this didn't stop them..

 

[DB]

This is not going to give confidence to anyone who is vulnerable or just plain nervous at going out.

But masks shouldnt be about giving people false 'confidence' - there is little evidence that they help so should never have been mandated.

I am not able to wear masks and the law has had the opposite effect - I avoid shops wherever possible as I don't want the hassle and hostility. I went on a train (2 stops, about 10 minutes) for the first time in nearly six months on Saturday, during which time I was asked by the guard 'got a mask'? (I said 'I am exempt' and he accepted that without further question), and received a dirty look from another passenger. This is not exactly encouraging me to go back to trains!

 

[Seehof]

I knew they were not exempt because I knew some of the students and I regret to say I knew some of them at York station too (due to my voluntary work).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2020 ==

I forgot to add that I too have a hidden disability and have the sunflower lanyard. Working where I do and with various people and their problems I have every sympathy. But I know for a fact that some do not care at all.

 

[43066]

I knew they were not exempt because I knew some of the students and I regret to say I knew some of them at York station too (due to my voluntary work).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2020 ==

I forgot to add that I too have a hidden disability and have the sunflower lanyard. Working where I do and with various people and their problems I have every sympathy. But I know for a fact that some do not care at all.

Thanks for clarifying that.

I just think you need to be very careful about making assumptions, even regarding people you know well. Not everyone is carrying a lanyard, and there are also some people who are exempt and yet choose to wear a mask for some of the time (personally I don’t agree with that approach, but each to their own).

Yes, clearly there will be some people who simply don’t care, but with all the confusion around mask wearing and the other silly rules that have been introduced over the last few months, it’s easy to see why people are losing patience.

 

[yorkie]

You'd have to know someone pretty well to know if they are covered by an exemption!

I've not been to the big Tesco for ages, probably not in 2020 (it's my nearest large supermarket but I don't have a car so it's not generally worth me going there) but in every other supermarket in York I've been to, compliance has been extremely high, to the point I'd estimate 100% compliance as the number of people I see without face coverings is significantly lower than the number of people likely be covered by an exemption.

Sweden, who do not mandate masks, continue to look good, with a 7 day average of 190 cases and only 2 deaths this month. This is in contrast to France, who appear to be mask-obsessive.

 

[Seehof]

Askham Bar Tesco’s (York) just after 8am will show you what I mean!

 

[35B]

I went and looked this up out of interest. It is clear as mud.

The regulations themselves are silent on the questioning of exemptions. The explanatory paper notes that the list of 'reasonable excuses' is non-exhaustive, but also that "as with the wider coronavirus restrictions an authorised person is expected to use their discretion and judgement when considering reasonable excuses and exemptions in the circumstances."

About as much thought seems to have gone into this as the rest of anything to do with the virus. Are 'non-exhaustive reasonable excuses' an authorised person asking what your specific reason for distress is (i.e divulging your medical history in public to a contracted security goon with a train load of people watching, who uses their discretion and judgement to decide whether that's 'good enough'?)? Or is it a different example like, say if you lost your covering, and were getting on the last train of the night at a station which didn't sell any, and the train guard lets you on (or not) otherwise you'd be stranded far from home?

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020 (revoked)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

www.legislation.gov.uk

Indeed, it is not especially clear. However, that cuts both ways - if the argument that the constable was justified isn’t clear cut, by definition nor can the argument that he wasn’t justified be clear cut. However, as section 5 is entirely clear that the regulations are enforceable, I suggest discussion about whether asking about the mask is allowable is little more than a distraction.

 

[43066]

I've not been to the big Tesco for ages, probably not in 2020 (it's my nearest large supermarket but I don't have a car so it's not generally worth me going there) but in every other supermarket in York I've been to, compliance has been extremely high, to the point I'd estimate 100% compliance as the number of people I see without face coverings is significantly lower than the number of people likely be covered by an exemption.

Interesting. I wonder if this is more evidence of the “north south divide” on masks that has been mentioned before.

My local Tesco is of the “metro” variety. It’s two mins away from where I live (which makes me incredibly lazy about having stuff at home!), so I’m in there once or more per day. Compliance is very patchy, I’d say 50 - 75% of customers are wearing a covering. Compliance noticeably dropped during the heatwave a few weeks ago, and hasn’t recovered since.

 

[Scott W]

As someone who is exempt and about to embark on a rail rover holiday these sort of incidents make me anxious.However I suspect there is more to this than the way the media has portrayed it.

Our family, with both my wife and son exempt, spent four weeks of the school holidays traveling on typically two trains per day with varying TOC's without issue (other than XC making junior sit in the aisle seat covered on a separate thread). On the first day of our travels they both collected a sunflower lanyard from GWR and I think on only one occasion this was not instinctively observed by train crew, who quicky spotted it and made no further enquiries.

 

[Bantamzen]

Interesting. I wonder if this is more evidence of the “north south divide” on masks that has been mentioned before.

My local Tesco is of the “metro” variety. It’s two mins away from where I live (which makes me incredibly lazy about having stuff at home!), so I’m in there once or more per day. Compliance is very patchy, I’d say 50 - 75% of customers are wearing a covering. Compliance noticeably dropped during the heatwave a few weeks ago, and hasn’t recovered since.

I wouldn't say there is a north-south divide, where I am mask compliance is definitely becoming shaky already.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wouldn't say there is a north-south divide, where I am mask compliance is definitely becoming shaky already.

West Yorkshire? You're barely in the North!

Round here in shops I'd say we're solidly at 90%+ from what I've seen. Which is about what I'd expect personally considering the various exemptions.

 

[Bantamzen]

West Yorkshire? You're barely in the North!

Round here in shops I'd say we're solidly at 90%+ from what I've seen. Which is about what I'd expect personally considering the various exemptions.

Hey! We are right in t'middle of t'north, not in t'scratty corners!! The Centre of the Universe as it were!! We even have the famous moors (baht'at) just a short few miles away, you can't get any more North than that!

Here there's already a perceivable drop in compliance, I'd say in the first couple of weeks it was closer to 100% than 90%. But more people are starting not to wear them, maybe through awareness of exceptions or maybe because more around them aren't wearing them. Give it until the winter & I'll expect many more to be discarded.

 

[adc82140]

With a this talk today in the media about how social distancing has broken down, no one has mentioned the elephant in the room: people have been led to believe that masks are some sort of silver bullet, and that as long as you're wearing a mask you're invincible. Don't like to say I told you so but...

 

[DB]

With a this talk today in the media about how social distancing has broken down, no one has mentioned the elephant in the room: people have been led to believe that masks are some sort of silver bullet, and that as long as you're wearing a mask you're invincible. Don't like to say I told you so but...

Has the media noticed that masks have been a major cause of this? It was quite noticeable in supermarkets that as soon as people were wearing masks they stopped bothering to maintain distances.

 

[Huntergreed]

Has the media noticed that masks have been a major cause of this? It was quite noticeable in supermarkets that as soon as people were wearing masks they stopped bothering to maintain distances.

Likely not. They'll argue people aren't distancing because they don't believe the virus is a threat and we need to mandate masks in more places to mitigate that (as has happened in other countries, which has caused cases to rocket up even more)

 

[trebor79]

Has the media noticed that masks have been a major cause of this? It was quite noticeable in supermarkets that as soon as people were wearing masks they stopped bothering to maintain distances.

And here's another reason why the professionals were so worried about face coverings being made mandatory. The second interviewee here touches her covering 4 times in the few seconds it took to do the voxpop.

Coronavirus: Wales' first local lockdown starts in Caerphilly

After a spike in cases, socialising and travel bans come into force, but pubs remain open.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[jumble]

Meanwhile, in East Asian countries, people are wearing masks (even in 30C+ summer weather) and the situation is well under control, while in UK you are arguing why masks are useless as the number of infections start to rocket. Utter disgrace!

Do you know if the figure is only rising because more tests are being carried out?

My view is that in any event since the number of infections figure here in the UK is bogus because if the same person has multiple tests each test is counted as a distinct case within those figures and there are also false positives all your argument indicates is that different countries may be measuring the same thing in different ways and has no relevance to mask wearing or not

 

[ainsworth74]

Has the media noticed that masks have been a major cause of this? It was quite noticeable in supermarkets that as soon as people were wearing masks they stopped bothering to maintain distances.

One thing that I spotted was that shortly after (or maybe just before, around the same time anyway!) it seemed like my local supermarket abandoned the steps they had been taking up until then to encourage social distancing. No more limit on the number of people in the store. No more one way system. Floor signage removed (though still some signs around). Etc etc. I have a sample size of one to play with here(!) but I wonder if other supermarkets were similar?

 

[trebor79]

Do you know if the figure is only rising because more tests are being carried out?

My view is that in any event since the number of infections figure here in the UK is bogus because if the same person has multiple tests each test is counted as a distinct case within those figures and there are also false positives all your argument indicates is that different countries may be measuring the same thing in different ways and has no relevance to mask wearing or not

The big issue with testing and using measures like positive tests per 100,000 of the population is that thhings are always going to look worse if you ramp testing up. really that raw figure needs to be normalised to take account of the proportion of the population that have actually been tested. Or just report the % positive or whatever.
Same issue with the ever-changing quarantine rules being decided on a threshold of 20 per 100,000. I think in time tourist dependant economies will latch onto that and quietly reduce the volume of testing to make it less likely they breach that arbitrary threshold.

And in all of this... People aren't actually getting ill in serious numbers. My reaction to the current panic about lots of young people testing positive is "so what?" They aren't ill, they likely won't get ill and almost certainly won't die. Older folk tend not to go to banging house parties and raves. It's time people were trusted to make their own decisions about whether they should see their relatives etc.

 

[jumble]

I went into a Tesco Metro yesterday and my mask broke so I did not wear it. Being in West London no one cared
A member of staff there told me that some facebook Karens had complained to the Council that the shop staff were not wearing masks and an official had visited to investigate.
I asked if the Council chap took it seriously as of course the staff are exempt
Amusingly he said the man from the Council came without a mask ....