UK face coverings discussion

[Richard Scott]

Indeed. I’m not disputing that. I’m just trying to help you by pointing out that you’ll be wasting your time.

Even if TOCs change their policy, and require masks (I think that might already be the official line at my place), it will be completely unenforceable for the reasons @bramling has set out above.

Not sure I want to be on a train driven by a driver forced to wear a mask. What if they wear glasses and they steam up, what if it causes breathing difficulties and what if they keep fiddling with it rather than concentrating on driving? No point saying about exemption as some people will go along with it for a quiet life as some are on here. Forcing train crew to wear them is ridiculous and could be unsafe.

 

[DB]

And your opinion is completely irrelevant as to whether I would express dissatisfaction to the TOC over such a policy, to be fair

Complaining about something like that comes across as jobsworth behaviour. It's simply none of your business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Complaining about something like that comes across as jobsworth behaviour. It's simply none of your business.

How can it be "jobsworth behaviour" if I don't work for the railway? It's nothing to do with my job, it's a dissatisfaction with the company's policy.

I strongly suspect that, in the general population, my opinion is not a minority one. It probably is here, but this Forum does lean very heavily towards libertarianism compared with the general balance of opinion, even more so with regard to COVID.

 

[DB]

How can it be "jobsworth behaviour" if I don't work for the railway? It's nothing to do with my job, it's a dissatisfaction with the company's policy.

I strongly suspect that, in the general population, my opinion is not a minority one. It probably is here, but this Forum does lean very heavily towards libertarianism compared with the general balance of opinion, even more so with regard to COVID.

Because the term generally has a wider application these days, meaning overly/unnecessarily officious.

Whether or not your opionion is shared by some of the general public isn't really relevant either - railway staff are not legally required to wear masks, it's as simple as that.

And incidentally, from my trip to Tesco this week it seems that most of the staff there (at least the evening shift) have abandoned them too - didn't see a single one wearing a mask, whereas the week before most were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whether or not your opionion is shared by some of the general public isn't really relevant either - railway staff are not legally required to wear masks, it's as simple as that.

If companies receive large numbers of complaints about something being or not being their policy, they often act on that. I know what the law is; my view is that TOC policy (and indeed the policy of every other business where customers have to wear masks) should exceed that and impose the same requirement on staff as on customers unless protected in some other way e.g. behind a screen.

 

[DB]

If companies receive large numbers of complaints about something being or not being their policy, they often act on that. I know what the law is; my view is that TOC policy (and indeed the policy of every other business where customers have to wear masks) should exceed that and impose the same requirement on staff as on customers unless protected in some other way e.g. behind a screen.

I very much doubt if this is a battle which any TOC will want to have with their staff at the moment...

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed. I’m not disputing that. I’m just trying to help you by pointing out that you’ll be wasting your time.

Even if TOCs change their policy, and require masks (I think that might already be the official line at my place), it will be completely unenforceable for the reasons @bramling has set out above.

Policy at said place is that face coverings will be worn in public areas on board trains and 'should' be worn while walking around stations and anyone who feels they are unable to do so should discuss with their line manager for occupational health/HR advice.

Whether that is actually occurring in practice is of course a moot point. Casual observation suggests guards largely compliant (particularly on HST and 15x stock where they spend a lot of time face to face with the public as opposed to 22x where they can occupy the kitchen most of the time - Northern guards as far as I've seen are generally doing it but also on several of their stock types spend the journey marooned at a door panel), platform staff variable by location, drivers mostly doing it when travelling passenger but not when moving around stations, fitters sometimes doing it and sometimes not, to cover the main safety critical grades.

I'm not aware of any "official" conversations taking place with individuals regarding face covering compliance but that's not to say it hasn't happened.

 

[Justin Smith]

I disagree. Social distancing is incompatible with resuming normal life in this country. The evidence that masks make a difference is weak and the benefits, if any, are unproven.

We all need to accept that this virus is going to kill a lot of people - which is regrettable- but above all we need to get back to normal.

I agree with some of what you have said (and with @Justin Smith) - masks are there to serve as a reminder/keep people scared. That’s clearly the real reason they have been mandated, along with “being seen to be doing something” and “everyone else is doing it”.’

I absolutely agree with all of this, except it will kill a lot of people, in this country, as in a lot more people in this country. There will be no second spike any where near as high as the first, if there is any increase it will be short lived and relatively minor.
I also wonder what percentage of people who have died with Covid actually died of something else but happened to have Covid at the time. Of the remainder I'd be very interested to know what percentage would have died within the next few months anyway, what other explanation is there for the death rate for the last 5 weeks being lower than the long term average (other than many people died a few months earlier than they otherwise would) ?
Obviously anyone dying before their time is regrettable, but there is obviously a bit difference between someone dying 30 years earlier or three months earlier.....

 

[Ken H]

One can of course acquire one of the lanyards sold on this site, other sites are available
(https://hiddendisabilitiesstore.com/?SID=d00163bd7d4a273c0d6acd1bd6770e64)

As regards people being aggrieved regarding Cummings as has been pointed out his son is autistic and hence they felt justified in taking him to his grandparents. This coupled with the anti brexit protests which had turned nasty outside his house

It would be interesting to know how those unhappy with Cummings feel about the trips by for example Stephen Kinnock or Ian Blackford ?

The government have handled this situation abysmally and if ever an organisation is misnamed it is the SAGE group.
Sweden seem to have handled it much better

(https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/)

One other link I came across refers to the 2003 crisis
(https://www.smh.com.au/national/farce-mask-its-safe-for-only-20-minutes-20030427-gdgnyo.html)

Off to see son and his girlfriend in Lincoln tomorrow as they have moved to go to Uni, going by train of course - the Wherry Line to Norwich and then via Peterborough on EMR - whose revised timetable means we have to take different trains to and from Peterborough to Lincoln then the ones booked - I have been assured we can take either earlier or later trains

I am Mask Exempt so I will let you know if anything untoward happens - shops I've been in have been ok

I have an exemption badge as the screen saver on my phone which I would show if anyone got awkward. but. 'I'm exempt' has covered the few occasions when asked. To be fair, the bloke in the Co-op said he asks because people forget to put them on, rather than willfully not wearing one, and are grateful for the reminder.
Bu i dont want a badge on a lanyard round my neck advertising to all and sundry, and setting me apart from the rest. They are not official or carry any weight anyway.

 

[island]

Under disablilty regulations you are not allowed to ask reasons why they consider themselves exempt. i have no desire to discuss why I am exempt with a shop worker, TOC employee or another member of the public. Thats private between me and my GP.
I am not sure a police office is allowed to ask me my reasons. I cant think of any other scenario where i would be required to disclose my medical condition to anyone.

I don’t believe any regulations say this. Can you please specify which regulations you feel apply here?

 

[trainophile]

I wonder how far the retail economy will fall before the whole face covering thing is reviewed, and it is tactically decided that shopping is more important than wearing bits of cloth on our faces, that not everyone has to wear anyway. That's what gets me - I am totally on board with various people not being required to wear them, but unless everyone does then surely that rather defeats the whole object.

 

[MikeWM]

I see masks in shops are mandatory in Northern Ireland from tomorrow, despite there not being a single death there in almost a month.

I'm not sure how anyone can believe anymore that this is just about trying to stop the spread of a virus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure how anyone can believe anymore that this is just about trying to stop the spread of a virus.

What do you think it's about, then?

 

[MikeWM]

What do you think it's about, then?

I'm honestly not sure. The options appear to range from the miserable to the sinister. None of them are good.

 

[LowLevel]

I wonder how far the retail economy will fall before the whole face covering thing is reviewed, and it is tactically decided that shopping is more important than wearing bits of cloth on our faces, that not everyone has to wear anyway. That's what gets me - I am totally on board with various people not being required to wear them, but unless everyone does then surely that rather defeats the whole object.

Have you any figures to suggest the retail economy is being damaged? I've not noticed anywhere being any quieter, someone posted up thread some Google tracking data that suggests it hasn't got any quieter, and on my trains yesterday I carried as many passengers in one shift as I did during several weeks of lockdown cumulatively. I also went to a sold out heritage railway event today whereby for much of what was on offer again - masks had to be worn, and were being *shrug*

I'm not seeing any evidence of my local town centre being deserted over mask wearing, if anything it has been bloody busy this week

 

[Richard Scott]

Have you any figures to suggest the retail economy is being damaged? I've not noticed anywhere being any quieter, someone posted up thread some Google tracking data that suggests it hasn't got any quieter, and on my trains yesterday I carried as many passengers in one shift as I did during several weeks of lockdown cumulatively. I also went to a sold out heritage railway event today whereby for much of what was on offer again - masks had to be worn, and were being *shrug*

I'm not seeing any evidence of my local town centre being deserted over mask wearing, if anything it has been bloody busy this week

Went out today and shops were very quiet.

 

[kez19]

What do you think it's about, then?

There is numerous conspiracies going about whether or not its true is another but then there can be at times that some theories do shed some light in the end?

I am for myself as open minded as I can be, however I think at the same time it doesn't help if the news cycles are continously speaking of doom and gloom and a second wave (spikes).... again this is just opinion, wharever happened of media being broadly open and investigating things but no they all follow what the governments say...

As I say (even this is probably more media thread) but you don't see in print/radio/TV on recoveries -- even though if recoveries are mentioned its buried more under the whole negative/died -- where is balance in all of this?

 

[bramling]

What do you think it's about, then?

Theres certainly an element of being seen to reassure certain elements of the population...

 

[Wuffle]

What do you think it's about, then?

The conspiracy theorists are big on the Bill Gates mandatory vaccination programme and if his vaccine is like his software they can poke it

 

[43066]

Whether that is actually occurring in practice is of course a moot point. Casual observation suggests guards largely compliant (particularly on HST and 15x stock where they spend a lot of time face to face with the public as opposed to 22x where they can occupy the kitchen most of the time - Northern guards as far as I've seen are generally doing it but also on several of their stock types spend the journey marooned at a door panel), platform staff variable by location, drivers mostly doing it when travelling passenger but not when moving around stations, fitters sometimes doing it and sometimes not, to cover the main safety critical grades.

222s had the entire first class cab end coach cordoned off for guards up until recently. I’m not sure if that’s still the case now that more are starting to travel. I’ve certainly noticed relatively few people wearing them in messrooms, despite said messrooms often seeming busier than they did pre COVID!

 

[LowLevel]

222s had the entire first class cab end coach cordoned off for guards up until recently. I’m not sure if that’s still the case now that more are starting to travel. I’ve certainly noticed relatively few people wearing them in messrooms, despite said messrooms often seeming busier than they did pre COVID!

Now half a coach cordoned off on the 222s (at least on the 4 and 5 cars, not been in the driving car on a 7 recently). More than we get on the 15x (nothing at all - not really fussed to be honest though some have kicked off ). Very few "proper" (as in fare paying) first class passengers about though, most I've seen have been pass holders.

No one wearing them in mess rooms but then you're meant to be distancing anyway - we've still got extra conference/meeting rooms to provide space at the busier/more cramped locations.

 

[Huntergreed]

A question I’ve been pondering recently, I’ve travelled a lot on trains over the last week and been into many shops. Are there any settings where you actually run the risk of a fine or is it simply a law that relies on people being afraid of enforcement that’s never going to happen? I’ll admit I took my mask off multiple times on journeys over the last week, and nobody batted an eyelid

 

[Skimpot flyer]

There may be something in that. People are forgetting to distance, and it's really important and really bad that they are. The omnipresence of masks serves as a reminder. If that's the reason, people brought it on themselves by failing to distance.

OK, I wasn’t going to bite, but reading the above activated the ‘cart before the horse’ detectors on my phone.
Actually, the omnipresence of masks has lead people to think they don’t need to distance any more.
I posted on here my experiences of this very phenomenon, on the first weekend after face coverings became mandatory in shops. When they tried to justify the new regulations, I don’t recall disregard for social distancing by the public being mentioned as a reason for the volte-face in government policy regarding face coverings

 

[43066]

A question I’ve been pondering recently, I’ve travelled a lot on trains over the last week and been into many shops. Are there any settings where you actually run the risk of a fine or is it simply a law that relies on people being afraid of enforcement that’s never going to happen? I’ll admit I took my mask off multiple times on journeys over the last week, and nobody batted an eyelid

I’d say the chances are vanishingly small in almost all settings. If challenged by someone who has authority to issue a fixed penalty (ie police officer or revenue enforcement, who are like hens’ teeth in most locations) you’d also have to admit that you were not exempt.

It is expected to be “enforced” largely by guilt tripping people, and through social pressure. Something that is relished by the interfering busybodies who live amongst us!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Are there any settings where you actually run the risk of a fine or is it simply a law that relies on people being afraid of enforcement that’s never going to happen?

A police station, probably? Unless they're "exempt"...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theres certainly an element of being seen to reassure certain elements of the population...

Masks, there is probably an element of that (I think it's a number of things, only one of which is actually protecting people) - I thought the poster I replied to was alluding to the whole thing being a conspiracy, though? Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[MikeWM]

The conspiracy theorists are big on the Bill Gates mandatory vaccination programme

It would appear our leaders are very keen to maintain the 'abnormal' for as long as possible - which itself makes no sense of the face of it. Vaccination would appear to be the only logical 'end' (assuming they want it to ever end, which I'm starting to doubt...)

I don't really see how vaccination fits in though, other than making some very rich people and companies even richer.

All that appears to be happening - if the opinion polls are to be believed! - is that people are increasingly wary of vaccination the more they think about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vaccination does appear to be the end - they are doing the "hammer and the dance".

 

[MikeWM]

I thought the poster I replied to was alluding to the whole thing being a conspiracy, though? Maybe I misunderstood.

All I'm saying is that what is happening makes no sense anymore. Therefore something else is happening.

It may be that most of the governments of the world have gone mad simultaneously. It may be that they are very misguided and think what they are doing is a clever psychological trick to reassure the public after panicing them for months. It may be that they appreciate the distraction while they get on with their real agenda unchallenged (eg. the planning law changes last week; the awarding of dodgy PPE contracts all over the place; the fact we're heading straight for a crash-out Brexit at the end of the year...). It may be something more sinister. I don't know; I leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Richard Scott]

All I'm saying is that what is happening makes no sense anymore. Therefore something else is happening.

It may be that most of the governments of the world have gone mad simultaneously. It may be that they are very misguided and think what they are doing is a clever psychological trick to reassure the public after panicing them for months. It may be that they appreciate the distraction while they get on with their real agenda unchallenged (eg. the planning law changes last week; the awarding of dodgy PPE contracts all over the place; the fact we're heading straight for a crash-out Brexit at the end of the year...). It may be something more sinister. I don't know; I leave it to everyone to draw their own conclusions.

I would agree that many governments have just gone mad. They've got stuck in a rut and no-one wants to be the first to move and admit need to try and live with virus so as they need to be seen to be doing something they bring in another restriction such as face masks or quarantine, both if which are probably having at best minimal effect on transmission. Not one of them has proposed a plan to get out of this mess bar waiting for a vaccine.