UK face coverings discussion

[greyman42]

I’ve posted this before but it’s worth repeating.

It’s important to remember they there is no obligation on anybody to prove that an exemption applies, according to the government’s own guidance.

Furthermore the guidance also makes clear that “exemption cards” are a matter of personal choice and not a legal requirement.

[Withdrawn] [Withdrawn] Face coverings: when to wear one, exemptions and what makes a good one

www.gov.uk

Exemption Cards



If challenged by someone in authority the correct approach is simply to state that an exemption applies. There’s no need to show evidence of this, and there’s no need to explain what that exemption might be. This has been my experience over the last few days travelling quite extensively and using various modes of transport, with no problems at all.

I would urge any forum members who are unable to wear face coverings to get out and about, as we are all now encouraged to do, keeping the above in mind.

Great post.

 

[Richard Scott]

What makes you think that they are very likely to be carriers?

I expect there were 4000 of them so one of them must have been a carrier!!!!

 

[AdamWW]

More likely they actually know a thing about statistics, and how doing more/targeted tests means that you find more cases..

Although the article starts off with

The number of people in England testing positive for coronavirus may be levelling off,

it's explained a little further down that this is from untargeted tests:

The figures are based on throat and nose swabs from nearly 120,000 people.
They are tested whether they have symptoms or not.

This sounds like reasonably good news, in that these measurements had been suggesting a small rise in infections (though without much confidence because they are extrapolating from such a small number of positive results), and now they are suggesting that infections are remaining steady or dropping.

 

[furlong]

To miss quote some lines from 'Yes Minister':

Are you in favour of face coverings if it saves some people's lives and may mean the pandemic ends sooner?

Are you in favour of having to cover your face everywhere when the benefit is mostly to society as a whole, the benefit is fairly small, lots of people will hassle you if you forget it and you may feel claustrophobic?

The government would come up with better example questions of course, however the 'voice of the people' is usually the voice of the people asking the questions.

This isn't fiction - the latest ONS opinions and lifestyle survey asked:

Question: “In the past seven days, have you used a face covering when outside your home to slow the spread of the coronavirus (COVID-19)?”

Also, interestingly, 20% of the people responding visited a health or medical centre in the last week and wore a face covering there. Do 20% of the whole population that is not exempt from mask wearing (or ignoring the law) visit those locations in a typical week or does this give a clue into some sampling bias?

 

[AdamWW]

Good interview with the excellent Dr John Lee, a rare voice of sanity over the last few months. Here's the relevant mask bit, but the whole thing is worth reading.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/07/our-government-should-not-be-copying-totalitarian-states/

Can anyone explain this to me:

Firstly, asymptomatic Covid-19 spreading around is good because it reduces the virulence of the virus.

It only makes sense to me if there were two versions of coronavirus going round, one with no symptoms and one with symptoms, and which each made you immune to both of them.
I don't think there is.

 

[MikeWM]

It only makes sense to me if there were two versions of coronavirus going round, one with no symptoms and one with symptoms, and which each made you immune to both of them.
I don't think there is.

I assumed it was a viral load thing. Asymptomatic people are presumably shedding less virus than people with violent symptoms, so people exposed will encounter a smaller amount of the virus which they have a better chance of fighting off without getting too ill.

Though I have also seen speculation on mutations - that a virus tends to mutate to a less dangerous version so it can infect more people. Our actions to try to prevent infections in the healthy community mean that the prevalent version remains the nastier version that can run rampant in hospitals and care homes etc. I'm not sure how accurate this is, however.

 

[The North Briton]

LNER are to issue badges, on request (i.e. no questions asked), which state ‘I am exempt from wearing a face covering’...

 

[AdamWW]

I assumed it was a viral load thing. Asymptomatic people are presumably shedding less virus than people with violent symptoms, so people exposed will encounter a smaller amount of the virus which they have a better chance of fighting off without getting too ill.

Fair enough - but in that case he's making a big assumption because I don't think we actually know this....

 

[talldave]

I assumed it was a viral load thing. Asymptomatic people are presumably shedding less virus than people with violent symptoms, so people exposed will encounter a smaller amount of the virus which they have a better chance of fighting off without getting too ill.

A bit like a vaccine then.

LNER are to issue badges, on request (i.e. no questions asked), which state ‘I am exempt from wearing a face covering’...

Let's hope they're not adhesive or they'll need an exemption for pittakionophobia sufferers!

 

[Bantamzen]

Fair enough - but in that case he's making a big assumption because I don't think we actually know this....

I think its a pretty fair bet if you think about it for a moment.

 

[AdamWW]

I think its a pretty fair bet if you think about it for a moment.

Maybe I'm behind the times but I didn't think it had been established that whether someone exhibited symptoms or not was due to the level of viral load.

A bit like a vaccine then.

Quite - if there really is some level of viral load that gives you immunity without doing any damage, then all we have to do is work out the right level, spray it into people's throats and you're done.

But I don't think it is that simple.

 

[Bantamzen]

Maybe I'm behind the times but I didn't think it had been established that whether someone exhibited symptoms or not was due to the level of viral load.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you are millions of years behind the times. Think about it, who is far more likely to be spreading a virus, someone constantly coughing, or someone not coughing?

 

[Huntergreed]

One question I have: do I have to wear a face covering if I’m the only person in my coach? (As is the case right now) Seems entirely pointless

 

[Yew]

One question I have: do I have to wear a face covering if I’m the only person in my coach? (As is the case right now) Seems entirely pointless

Who's going to shout at you?

 

[birchesgreen]

One question I have: do I have to wear a face covering if I’m the only person in my coach? (As is the case right now) Seems entirely pointless

Yes you must wear it to protect yourself from... er... yourself.

 

[43066]

One question I have: do I have to wear a face covering if I’m the only person in my coach? (As is the case right now) Seems entirely pointless

Not if you’re exempt!

 

[Huntergreed]

Not if you’re exempt!

Not exempt sadly, just find the journey is much more comfortable and enjoyable without one!

 

[trebor79]

Not exempt sadly, just find the journey is much more comfortable and enjoyable without one!

As there's nobody else to ever care whether you wear it or not, whip it off! Wearing one when alone is the very epitome of pointlessness.

 

[adc82140]

I think common sense dictates you don't need to wear one if you're on your own. When I'm at work alone in my control room, separated from my patient by 5mm lead equivalent glass and a sturdy wall, off comes my mask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe I'm behind the times but I didn't think it had been established that whether someone exhibited symptoms or not was due to the level of viral load.

There is also a theory that asymptomatic cases are caused by T-cell based partial immunity caused by one of the common cold coronaviruses.

One question I have: do I have to wear a face covering if I’m the only person in my coach? (As is the case right now) Seems entirely pointless

I suppose the guard might be looking at the CCTV and put an announcement out telling you to put it on. But that isn't possible on many types of unit, and so in practice if you can be told off for it that means another person is present, and then you should have it on!

 

[adc82140]

If a guard has time to look at CCTV to see if someone isn't wearing a mask, then they've just made a case for DOO (runs for cover)

 

[AdamWW]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you are millions of years behind the times. Think about it, who is far more likely to be spreading a virus, someone constantly coughing, or someone not coughing?

That wasn't what I was talking about.

It was the suggestion that asymptomatic infection results from a lower viral load than needed for symptomatic infection.

I don't think this has been established though it sounds plausible.

(I'd have thought it could also be for genetic reasons, or depend on what previous infections someone has had, or something else...).

 

[Huntergreed]

I just had word from my university that they’re considering various measures to make our accommodation safer, including potentially mandating masks in communal kitchens and bathrooms etc. I really, really hope this doesn’t happen, as this is like mandating a mask inside your own home

 

[AdamWW]

I just had word from my university that they’re considering various measures to make our accommodation safer, including potentially mandating masks in communal kitchens and bathrooms etc. I really, really hope this doesn’t happen, as this is like mandating a mask inside your own home

Yuck.

That's going a bit far.

 

[Richard Scott]

I just had word from my university that they’re considering various measures to make our accommodation safer, including potentially mandating masks in communal kitchens and bathrooms etc. I really, really hope this doesn’t happen, as this is like mandating a mask inside your own home

This really is going too far, when is this nonsense going to stop? At the moment I can't see it happening, there are now too many people with a little bit of power and they're loving every minute.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just had word from my university that they’re considering various measures to make our accommodation safer, including potentially mandating masks in communal kitchens and bathrooms etc. I really, really hope this doesn’t happen, as this is like mandating a mask inside your own home

I would think that a bit silly, surely each flat is basically a household?

 

[Journeyman]

I would think that a bit silly, surely each flat is basically a household?

It's more than a *bit* silly.

 

[Huntergreed]

I would think that a bit silly, surely each flat is basically a household?

It's more than a *bit* silly.

Exactly, I’ve no idea why it’s been suggested and I can only hope that they see sense. It was a part of a list of example precautions they are considering, including a “no visitors policy” (even though households are legally allowed visitors, is this permitted?) and not allowing mixing between flat bubbles

 

[Journeyman]

Exactly, I’ve no idea why it’s been suggested and I can only hope that they see sense. It was a part of a list of example precautions they are considering, including a “no visitors policy” (even though households are legally allowed visitors, is this permitted?) and not allowing mixing between flat bubbles

It falls under the "being seen to be doing something" category, and is probably aimed at "reassuring" those who have been scared into never going out.

Quite how it'll be enforced is a different matter.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

I would think that a bit silly, surely each flat is basically a household?

That's how mine is being treated.