UK bus network

[FrozenPoints]

Can any of you explain how the UK bus network is run in simple terms?

I totally understand rail franchises, but I've never grasped the bus network.

I've heard various things including councils subsidise price per passenger - dishing out contracts at a loss. I'm confused!

Help!

 

[Zoe]

There are different systems in use:

In London bus services are run by private companies under contract to tfl. The frequencies and fares are specified by tfl and the private companies simply run the service.

In Northern Ireland bus services are run by Translink, a public corporation.

Elsewhere buses are run by private companies on a fully commercial basis. Services that would not be commercially viable can be subsidized by councils. There are however still a few areas where the bus company is owned the council or councils: Edinburgh is one.

 

[WatcherZero]

At basic level:

* Councils build bus stops and charge bus companies to stop at them, they also make money by selling advertising space to ad companies. A bus stop may be in the wrong place or just not needed and not have any services for years on end.
* Bus companies are free to create any route between two points they think will make money.
* Councils have a responsibility to ensure universal access to transport. If no bus company is willing to operate a service through a certain area they may either sponsor a diversion of a commercial route or the running of an entirely subsidised route, these are put out to tender and bus companies bid to operate them. It can either be in the form of a minimum revenue guarentee (they pay the shortfall in fare revenue below a defined break even with small profit figure) or contracted operation where they pay the whole cost but take all the revenue in return.
* Councils may also subsidise concessionary fares for certain groups such as children or the free travel of the elderly

 

[MCR247]

Nottingham is another, although Transdev owns a small part

 

[Zoe]

Councils build bus stops and charge bus companies to stop at them

I know bus companies are charged for using the main bus stations in towns but would have thought it a bit difficult to enforce a charge for stopping at every bus stop as you'd need to have some way of detecting if the bus has stopped there or not. I also can't find any reference to this per stop charge.

 

[WatcherZero]

The bus companies have to register their routes and frequencies, they are charged a sliding ratio depending on the facilities of the stop e.g. shelter. They charge far more for stopping at a large bus station/interchange than simply a bus stop flagpole (in the order of 20x as much I believe).

 

[Zoe]

How do they prevent the bus companies from stopping at a stop on the route that they have not paid to stop at then?

 

[SS4]

The bus companies have to register their routes and frequencies, they are charged a sliding ratio depending on the facilities of the stop e.g. shelter. They charge far more for stopping at a large bus station/interchange than simply a bus stop flagpole (in the order of 20x as much I believe).

They probably pay a pittance for unmarked (ie de facto) bus stops (I've been caught out before)

How do they prevent the bus companies from stopping at a stop on the route that they have not paid to stop at then?

By catching them red handed I would guess. I would also hazard a guess that the council has the power to change a route for congestion region (the jams around the top of Corporation St in Brum (by the tesco) is manic at times)

 

[WatcherZero]

They fill out one of these:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Application to Register a Bus Service (PSV 350).pdf

 

[jopsuk]

to a certain extent, you get yourself a couple of buses and of these:

 

[Smethwickian]

to a certain extent, you get yourself a couple of buses and of these:

You must be thinking of a certain group of 'companies' in the West Midlands, which seem to come and go under various names and occasionally have certain addresses or mobile phone numbers in common, and which operate a 'lively' selection of elderly buses and bread-van style minibuses, competing with a selection of National Express West Midlands routes, to a 'secret' and erratic timetable seemingly known only to its drivers on a day-to-day basis.

"But their number 89 always seems to come before the West Midlands bus," says my mum.

Yes, mum. I've seen them parked down the road from your house. They probably wait until they see some passengers at the nearest stops and then set off, without the need for any such nonsense as a timetable or spending time fixing the bits that look like they're falling off the bus.

 

[jopsuk]

Similar firms operate all over, and some may even term certain larger operators with humble beginnings as bit, um, "western".

 

[bb21]

Similar firms operate all over, and some may even term certain larger operators with humble beginnings as bit, um, "western".

Western Greyhound? (They're not large though.)
Western National?
Western Scottish?
Western Welsh?

 

[WestCoast]

to a certain extent, you get yourself a couple of buses and of these:

Manchester's UK North (or GM Buses as they also called themselves) used to be one of the very worst.
Many of the drivers were very poorly skilled and a fair majority spoke very little english! Asking for a ticket was a challenge...:roll:

 

[bb21]

Are they still trading? hock: I thought they were closed down a long time ago.

 

[WestCoast]

Are they still trading? hock: I thought they were closed down a long time ago.

From the article, thankfully their license was revoked in December 2006 - they truly were an appalling firm and a worst-case example of a private bus network. I took a bus with them a few times out of necessity and I could never get the driver to issue an "all operator" day ticket, he just kept repeating "Piccadilly?". The driving and condition of the vehicle was also shocking! :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

Western Greyhound? (They're not large though.)
Western National?
Western Scottish?
Western Welsh?

Wasn't quite meaning in a literal sense

 

[asb]

Just to correct an incorrect post earlier in the thread, there is no charge to stop at your average roadside bus stop. The only places where there is a departure charge are places that can be recognised as a bus station/interchange - i.e. not only in a 'special' buses only area, but also usually with some other facilities provided, such as toilets. Charges for these vary wildly across the country.

Roadside bus stops are also not necessarily the responsibility of the council, in some places it is the major operator who is responsible. Where this occurs tends to be a quirk of history I think rather than any predefined pattern.

 

[BrummyBoy]

You must be thinking of a certain group of 'companies' in the West Midlands, which seem to come and go under various names and occasionally have certain addresses or mobile phone numbers in common, and which operate a 'lively' selection of elderly buses and bread-van style minibuses, competing with a selection of National Express West Midlands routes, to a 'secret' and erratic timetable seemingly known only to its drivers on a day-to-day basis.

"But their number 89 always seems to come before the West Midlands bus," says my mum.

Yes, mum. I've seen them parked down the road from your house. They probably wait until they see some passengers at the nearest stops and then set off, without the need for any such nonsense as a timetable or spending time fixing the bits that look like they're falling off the bus.

I do wonder how half of there vehicles are roadwoarthy (assuming they are), however, the West Midlands does have some more professional indipendants (such as Central Buses, Claribels and Diamond).

 

[Deerfold]

The bus regulator is VOSA - if you have concerns about companies not keeping to timetables or running unsafe buses I'd get in touch with them. They do withdraw licenses to run services for these reasons.

They publish changes to timetables (usually just the fact there is a change) at http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/publications/noticesandproceedings/noticesandproceedings.htm

Bus companies usually have to give several weeks' notice to start or change a route. However if (for example) another operator has gone bust or had its license revoked this may be waived.

 

[Aictos]

Take Stagecoach in Peterborough for example, it would be nice if they got shot of their low liner single deckers and replaced them with the very nice low liner double deckers which they're got recently seeing as the single deckers have no capacity for the routes they're expected to be on.

I'm sure there are operators out there who would love to get their hands on these nearly new single deckers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are they still trading? hock: I thought they were closed down a long time ago.

Correct. They had a very poor reputation...but not as bad as the infamous CITIBUS who operated in Manchester in the 1990's. Their standard of maintenance was so poor that on one journey down the steep hill into Middleton, the rear offside wheel came off and actually overtook the bus.

I was at the GMPTA East Area committee meeting in Oldham when this came up during "Any Other Business" on the agenda, as it had only happened four hours before the meeting started. Needless to say, the company folded very quickly after that.

 

[radamfi]

I thought Citibus was taken over by GM Buses, or it might have been GM Buses North by then.

Regarding bus station charges, the Competition Commission market investigation found that bus station charges were forcing other operators out of these bus stations, including tendered services and propose fairer access.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to correct an incorrect post earlier in the thread, there is no charge to stop at your average roadside bus stop. The only places where there is a departure charge are places that can be recognised as a bus station/interchange - i.e. not only in a 'special' buses only area, but also usually with some other facilities provided, such as toilets. Charges for these vary wildly across the country.

Roadside bus stops are also not necessarily the responsibility of the council, in some places it is the major operator who is responsible. Where this occurs tends to be a quirk of history I think rather than any predefined pattern.

I think that in large metropolitan areas, bodies such as TfGM in the Greater Manchester area, do look after the bus stops and shelters in areas outside on the bus stations, in answer to that very specific point raised. They also do a great amount at the major town centre bus stations/interchanges.

 

[Ze Random One]

I believe that Quality Bus Partnerships and the like can make certain facilities available only to those operators who are members of the partnership (although there must be non-discriminatory policy for making the partnership). So, for example, a guided bus scheme or busway may be part of a QBP, and therefore the stops on the busway are only available to members of the QBP, which often places conditions on the quality of vehicle and frequency of service that can use the facility.

Presumably the departure charges can apply whenever a facility is not part of the public highway? If it's not a public Right of Way, then the owner of the land is presumably entitled to charge for its use?

With regards to charges, I think councils may be able to levy a small fee for advertising a bus timetable at stops - although I am happy to stand corrected?
I do know that the Transport Act 2000 puts local authorities under obligation to form and carry out a bus service information scheme, which obliges them to ensure that bus service information is disseminated in a consistent and appropriate manner - although that need not be actually done by the council if the operator is happy to follow council policy, but if it is not done correctly by the operator the council can insist that the operator passes over the information such that they can print it up themselves.

With regards to bus stop infrastructure (shelters and the like), it can often be owned by a multitude of groups:
- Council Transport Department
- Council Highways Department
- PTE / ITA
- Parish Council
- Community Group
- Operator
- Private company (e.g. Adshel)
My understanding is that everything would need to go up with the permission of the highway authority, and that planning consent would be required for any illuminated advertising shelters.
Furthermore, I believe that a local authority can levy a fee upon operators for the maintenance of a shelter, although I see no obligation to do so (Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1953, Para 4.2)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought Citibus was taken over by GM Buses, or it might have been GM Buses North by then.

Regarding bus station charges, the Competition Commission market investigation found that bus station charges were forcing other operators out of these bus stations, including tendered services and propose fairer access.

You were correct regarding CITIBUS. They were actually acquired by GM BUSES NORTH. Most of the fleet were on hire. The only two full-size buses retained were a couple of National 2's plus some minibuses. I have a most kind contact who has furnished me with this information.

 

[shinkansen1966]

what's with these 'quality bus partnerships ?'
what are they and how do they benefit the travelling public ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Basically a signed agreement between the local authority and the bus operators that if the authority invests in station/road improvements to improve passenger facilities then the bus companies in return agree to minimum standards for bus stock, emmissions, low floor access and driver training along with promotion and branding on the route. Tram style offroad bus stops and ticket vending machines are sometimes included.

 

[bus man]

Sorry if some of this as been covered.

The councils (or passenger transport executives ) do not charge for bus companies to use bus stops on the highway they can however charge for them to use bus stations that they own/run.

Likewise, if a company owns a bus station it MUST allow other companies to use the said bus station it can however , charge them but the charge must be reasonable.


The councils will put out to tender services or journeys which are not run by the companies on a commercial basis.

On some routes the commercial service will be say half hourly but the council (or pte) want it every 20 min so they pay for another journey. This other journey will be put out for tender so it may not be the same operator.

Councils will specify the type of vehicle which could include the environmental considerations.


The council (or pte) have by law to take part in the national (i.e. the English or the welsh or the Scottish) OAP / disabled travel scheme.

In England its 930 am to 11pm for buses only they can decide if they want to extend this time or include trains or trams or ferries.

In order for a operator to operate it as to have a licence from the DLVA / VOSA .

This will be issued subject to financial / repute / suitable premises etc.

When the licence is issued the operator needs to register the route - think its now 90 days notice they can then operate , if they fail to operate journeys even on commercial services then they can suffer penalties.