Uckfield - Lewes and TfSE

[fandroid]

Some excitement in Sussex about a strategy report from TfSE including a "new main line". Should we just yawn?

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/new...ces-from-sussex-to-london-to-be-built-4075821

Unveiling its ‘Strategic Investment Plan’ the regional authority Transport for the South East (TfSE) has committed itself to delivering this immensely important project which will, as it states:‘ Direct passenger rail services from London to Brighton via Tunbridge Wells and Uckfield.’
TfSE is looking only at reinstating a non-stop railway south of Uckfield via a new connection into the London – Lewes line

 

[Harryeurostar]

It would be really useful for commuters in the southeast to get to Brighton and then a change away to Portsmouth without having to pay the extra london terminals fare. I just hope that it won't replace the herarige spa valley line (eridge to tunbridge wells) and another track will be built

 

[andrew749]

In the actual document it's described as an 'aspiration'. Considering the Strategic Investment Plan covers the whole of the former South Eastern, South Central and South Western areas, I don't rate its chances of being funded (Uckfield - Lewes, I mean).

Link to the plan:

https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/app/uploads/2023/03/SIP-1.pdf

 

[steamybrian]

Yawn with boredom.
Been talked about for over 30 years.
see also Wealden Line Campaign web site. https://wealdenline.org.uk/

 

[cle]

I prefer it to Colne-Skipton, but the reality would be tough.

Journey times would be slow to Lewes and especially Brighton, there is only an hourly (all stations) path, it's single track... diesel etc.

You could maybe take on the Hastings service and path - as an hourly faster pattern - but you'd probably have people moaning about loss of Gatwick service, and you'd need to fill that Lewes-HH frequency with something else, which didn't go through Windmill.

Or there is some portion working with East Grinstead services.

 

[zwk500]

It's a bit late this time round! Normally this study comes out every 10 years...

I know they've put a lot of effort into it and there's probably a fuller report somewhere, but the document linked to upthread is nothing more than a jumped up powerpoint from a powerless talking shop. It's a real shame because there's a credible case for a line branching from Glynde going via Ringmer and then joining up to Uckfield but because the country is run for nostalgia the only routes people are allowed to consider are those where there was a railway in 1960.

 

[PGAT]

Some excitement in Sussex about a strategy report from TfSE including a "new main line". Should we just yawn? https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/new...ces-from-sussex-to-london-to-be-built-4075821

I'm not sure why this article is so laser focused about the supposed "fast" trains between London and Brighton. It's going to be at least an extra 10 miles, plus have the additional problems of tight curves, fleet procurement etc. This article is nonsense. Sigh and yawn.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure why this article is so laser focused about the supposed "fast" trains between London and Brighton. It's going to be at least an extra 10 miles, plus have the additional problems of tight curves, fleet procurement etc. This article is nonsense. Sigh and yawn.

I agree. If the line were to be run via Hamsey again then I don't see any feasible way for additional trains to Brighton given that the East Coastway will retain at least 1tph via Gatwick and there won't be reversals at Lewes if the main line is open.

 

[cle]

I can't see it working for fast trains to Brighton. We have patterned ~50min services to Brighton in living memory, and could do so again. The GatEx does it in 58/59, which is reasonable.

Problem is that everything calls at Gatwick basically, and almost all services at Haywards Heath (most at Three Bridges) - plus Burgess Hill has grown hugely in the last 20 years, etc etc - and every service is busy. So the fasts have eroded somewhat.

I'd see Uckfield-Lewes as relief / addition to the East Coastway, and regional connectivity. It would never be a faster route to Brighton. As I said, Victoria-Hastings/Ore could go that way. Or a Brighton, but would be far slower - presumably calling at Falmer also.

 

[NSE]

My view is that this wouldn’t be a rival for the mainline, but a supplement. For me, the target market for this is current Uckfield/Oxted pax heading south to Lewes and Brighton and passengers around the East Grinstead/Uckfield catchment that want to head to Hastings/Seaford/Eastbourne destinations that currently drive or take a convoluted way round on train. It would now be a simple change at Lewes. Then, it would also act as an alternative/back up in times of disruption. Something like 1tph London-East Croydon-Oxted-Hurst Green-Edenbridge-Crowborough-Uckfield-Lewes-Falmer-Brighton and 1tph London-East Croydon-Upper Warlingham-Oxted-All Stations to Lewes. This is assuming it’s electrified etc.
Until I used it for the first time on Sunday, I hadn’t realise it was only about 8 miles.

 

[Minstral25]

It also says reinstate Brighton Cross-Country Services! - presumably they are going to run via Reading through Redhill to the Tonbridge branch (on a new through flyover with platforms I assume) onto a new chord to the Uckfield branch at Edenbridge, then onwards via the newly rebuilt line to Lewes and Brighton. There is no room on the Brighton Main Line for them.

The Crayonistas have a new home - its called "TfSE"!

 

[PGAT]

It also says reinstate Brighton Cross-Country Services! - presumably they are going to run via Reading through Redhill to the Tonbridge branch (on a new through flyover with platforms I assume) onto a new chord to the Uckfield branch at Edenbridge, then onwards via the newly rebuilt line to Lewes and Brighton. There is no room on the Brighton Main Line for them.

The Crayonistas have a new home - its called "TfSE"!

That has to be one of the most circuitous routes I have heard of. Imagine trying to get from say Oxford to Brighton on a rammed Voyager that goes via Eridge!

 

[zwk500]

That has to be one of the most circuitous routes I have heard of. Imagine trying to get from say Oxford to Brighton on a rammed Voyager that goes via Eridge!

I took the 2nd part of @Minstral25's post to mean they were having a laugh.

A genuine service I would expect 1tph Vic-Hastings/Ore via Gatwick, 1tph Vic-Eastbourne via Uckfield, 1tph London Bridge-Seaford (possibly terminating at Lewes or Newhaven if timings don't work) via Uckfield.

 

[Bald Rick]

One suspects that this press release has been leaked, it was embargoed for the next 9 days.

 

[snowball]

One suspects that this press release has been leaked, it was embargoed for the next 9 days.

Until April 1st?

 

[AlbertBeale]

It's a bit late this time round! Normally this study comes out every 10 years...

I know they've put a lot of effort into it and there's probably a fuller report somewhere, but the document linked to upthread is nothing more than a jumped up powerpoint from a powerless talking shop. It's a real shame because there's a credible case for a line branching from Glynde going via Ringmer and then joining up to Uckfield but because the country is run for nostalgia the only routes people are allowed to consider are those where there was a railway in 1960.

Do you mean joining at Glynde from the east or the west - presumably the former to then serve Lewes/Brighton - but that's quite a windy route. (Presumably it would follow the old alignment from Uckfield as far as Isfield?)

 

[Bald Rick]

Until April 1st?

That’s the only rational explanation!

 

[zwk500]

Do you mean joining at Glynde from the east or the west - presumably the former to then serve Lewes/Brighton - but that's quite a windy route. (Presumably it would follow the old alignment from Uckfield as far as Isfield?)

Joining facing Brighton - Skirt the edge of the National park, station at Ringmer immediately adjacent to the Secondary School and Green Man pub (there's a gap at the moment), then curve across towards Isfield. There's an option to either rejoin the old trackbed south of Isfield and take over the Lavender line, or to rejoin north of the current limit of Lavender Line operation to regain the old alignment prior to the A26. Yes old alignment into Uckfield.

It's clearly not going to happen, but the option is never even considered despite Ringmer being a village of 5k and marked for extensive development and the local roads being unimproved B roads that can't take today's traffic. But because it was not on a railway line 150 years ago, people cannot conceive of a line ever being built a different way.

 

[Rescars]

Joining facing Brighton - Skirt the edge of the National park, station at Ringmer immediately adjacent to the Secondary School and Green Man pub (there's a gap at the moment), then curve across towards Isfield. There's an option to either rejoin the old trackbed south of Isfield and take over the Lavender line, or to rejoin north of the current limit of Lavender Line operation to regain the old alignment prior to the A26. Yes old alignment into Uckfield.

It's clearly not going to happen, but the option is never even considered despite Ringmer being a village of 5k and marked for extensive development and the local roads being unimproved B roads that can't take today's traffic. But because it was not on a railway line 150 years ago, people cannot conceive of a line ever being built a different way.

You make a very good point. Given the apparent difficulties and problems in buildlng a new station on an existing route, or even just reopening a closed station, the challenge of reopening a closed route must be seriously daunting and make creating an entirely new route almost insurmountable, flagship projects excepted of course. Sadly cost-benefit analyses do not necessarily reflect common sense.

 

[Minstral25]

I took the 2nd part of @Minstral25's post to mean they were having a laugh.

A genuine service I would expect 1tph Vic-Hastings/Ore via Gatwick, 1tph Vic-Eastbourne via Uckfield, 1tph London Bridge-Seaford (possibly terminating at Lewes or Newhaven if timings don't work) via Uckfield.

I wasn't serious, just highlighting the lack of seriousness in TfSE's plans. It's much more about Roads they'll and some never happening bait for public transport users.

TfSE suggesting reinstating cross-country services to Brighton is a much maligned dream on this forum and usually shot down by asking which packed services are to be withdrawn to enable them as the Brighton Main line is apparently "full". Along with BML2 via Uckfield and Lewes it will probably remain a pipedream.

 

[Meerkat]

I wasn't serious, just highlighting the lack of seriousness in TfSE's plans. It's much more about Roads they'll and some never happening bait for public transport users.

TfSE suggesting reinstating cross-country services to Brighton is a much maligned dream on this forum and usually shot down by asking which packed services are to be withdrawn to enable them as the Brighton Main line is apparently "full". Along with BML2 via Uckfield and Lewes it will probably remain a pipedream.

It doesn't seem to matter how often someone tries to light a bonfire of the QUANGOs they just keep popping up. TfSE is utterly pointless - its area is not a cohesive zone of any description. Just another case of the middle classes creating jobs for each other - executive directors, directors, PR people, and their powerpoint pirate mates churning out these things full of vision, transformation, and other buzzwords. To maintain their existence they have to throw a bone to all the local authorities - and so Uckfield-Lewes gets yet another run out.
I would laugh if it wasn't wasting public money. To demonstrate how preposterous they are their strategy includes putting more railway, and mass transit, on the Isle of Wight!

 

[Bald Rick]

Genuinely surprised about this, as the lead officer at TfSE was personally involved in the 2007-8 study, and understood the issues better than anybody. Although there is a relatively new Comms lead there; the former Comms lead also knew the issues well and is a great chap.

 

[Meerkat]

Genuinely surprised about this, as the lead officer at TfSE was personally involved in the 2007-8 study, and understood the issues better than anybody. Although there is a relatively new Comms lead there; the former Comms lead also knew the issues well and is a great chap.

They are herding cats. If they don't keep all the authorities on board then their quango disintegrates and fails. They don't keep the local authorities on board by telling individual ones that the only proposed improvement in their area is crayoning and wont be going forward to the strategy.
As I said before the 'strategy' includes expanding the rail system on the IoW - by contrast to that Uckfield - Lewes is eminently sensible!

 

[zwk500]

They are herding cats. If they don't keep all the authorities on board then their quango disintegrates and fails. They don't keep the local authorities on board by telling individual ones that the only proposed improvement in their area is crayoning and wont be going forward to the strategy.
As I said before the 'strategy' includes expanding the rail system on the IoW - by contrast to that Uckfield - Lewes is eminently sensible!

If you want a laugh have a look at all the PDFs they've produced. https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/useful-documents/strategic-investment-plan-evidence-base/

Vast reams of powerpoints that take 1/3rd of the slides to even vaguely get near the point.

 

[Minstral25]

It doesn't seem to matter how often someone tries to light a bonfire of the QUANGOs they just keep popping up. TfSE is utterly pointless - its area is not a cohesive zone of any description. Just another case of the middle classes creating jobs for each other - executive directors, directors, PR people, and their powerpoint pirate mates churning out these things full of vision, transformation, and other buzzwords. To maintain their existence they have to throw a bone to all the local authorities - and so Uckfield-Lewes gets yet another run out.
I would laugh if it wasn't wasting public money. To demonstrate how preposterous they are their strategy includes putting more railway, and mass transit, on the Isle of Wight!

Actually I think an operational TfSE in a similar way to TfL would be very good thing for teh South East to help focus transport under single operation to ensure good interventions and services

Genuinely surprised about this, as the lead officer at TfSE was personally involved in the 2007-8 study, and understood the issues better than anybody. Although there is a relatively new Comms lead there; the former Comms lead also knew the issues well and is a great chap.

I am disappointed about the outcome, their consultants (ARUP I recall) only gave lip service to actual users and stakeholders and the sense is this was done in an office without talking to people who use the services. Sat in several meetings with Rail/Transport User Groups at Gatwick to discuss this plan and it felt like they wanted to enforce their views on us rather than get information from us.

If you want a laugh have a look at all the PDFs they've produced. https://transportforthesoutheast.org.uk/useful-documents/strategic-investment-plan-evidence-base/

Vast reams of powerpoints that take 1/3rd of the slides to even vaguely get near the point.

A solution of Quantity rather than Quality I think

 

[zwk500]

Actually I think an operational TfSE in a similar way to TfL would be very good thing for teh South East to help focus transport under single operation to ensure good interventions and services

The South East is not integrated in travel patterns in any way like TfL are. A Tf Sussex might work but even then there's a strong West/East divide.

A solution of Quantity rather than Quality I think

indeed.

 

[Meerkat]

A solution of Quantity rather than Quality I think

Its a sort of deception - use a deluge of graphics and pseudo stats to make it look far more scientific than it really is.

 

[Minstral25]

The South East is not integrated in travel patterns in any way like TfL are. A Tf Sussex might work but even then there's a strong West/East divide.

It could be more integrated and its not just trains service but Bus as well to ensure connectivity and ease of travel

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s a sort of deception - use a deluge of graphics and pseudo stats to make it look far more scientific than it really is.

Standard Operating Procedure for this sort of thing.

 

[fandroid]

There's definitely a case for some greater overview of public transport in the SE. Many people live near to the county boundaries and cross them without even thinking about it, but what coordination and support there is rests with the counties and the unitary authorities.