Uber taxis

[radamfi]

Globalisation is making "poorer" countries richer, so by necessity the "richer" countries will get poorer and their standard of living will reduce. That includes us.

Economic growth is still expected in mature economies but at a lower rate than in the developing world, in the long term leading to convergence.

 

[dcsprior]

As a non-londoner this distinction between a black cab and other taxis seems strange.

I've lived in Edinburgh for almost 13 years, where there are both black cabs and minicabs. Both are bookable by phone and both charge the same meter fares, though some minicab firms will advertise a % discount on the meter fare If I'm going home from a night out, then I'll likely hail a black cab or get one from a rank (the two things which you can't do with a minicab) but if I'm making my weekly trip to the airport I'll book a minicab because a longish journey at 70mph is more comfortable in a saloon car than a black cab, and the 20% discount makes a difference.

I've used Uber a few times in London, and have found it to be good value - though there are a few things I don't like, for instance not being able to see the fare in realtime on the app while the journey is still in progress.

I see no reason to believe that Uber won't improve the service/price ratio which traditional black cabs offer, in much the same way as low cost airlines have forced BA et al to be more competitive

 

[sheff1]

As a non-londoner this distinction between a black cab and other taxis seems strange.

Indeed. Until I read this thread I could not understand what the issue was with Uber and meters. In Sheffield both black cabs and private hires use meters, the difference being that PH rates are around 20% cheaper. As the PH saloons are also more comfortable than the black cabs then the best option seems obvious.

I have seen some Uber cars around recently but don't really see what the difference is between tham and the pre-existing PHs - the latter give pretty accurate estimates of pick up time and have never let me down.

 

[radamfi]

Outside London, the only real difference is that Hackney Carriages are allowed to pick up without being pre-booked and have the luxury of being able to hang out at ranks in prominent locations, hence justifying their higher rates. In other countries, taxis can only pick up at taxi ranks or be pre-booked. The "roaming around" aspect of London taxis isn't allowed.

 

[Abpj17]

When people come out with things like "driver invariably gets lost/doesn't know quickest routes", I don't recognise that at all.

You not recognising it, doesn't make it not true though. I'm willing to believe that the features of the London market are different to other cities and countries though.

The knowledge sets london black cab drivers apart. In a city like London, relying on satnav doesn't work. Too many roadworks, traffic oddities, and sneaky little short cuts. Uber cars I've been in have repeatedly taken very odd routes and I've had to direct them - and this is in zone 1. It would be unheard of for a black cabbie not to know how to get from canary wharf to blackfriars. An uber driver, however, managed a detour via london bridge and southwark....

For those who are in the regions and/or global, I can definitely see the attraction of uber as a global brand/interface.

 

[radamfi]

Is Uber planning to open in more UK towns?

 

[stut]

It's already in Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and Merseyside and Sheffield. It did claim to be in Wakefield until recently, but that seems to have been dropped, possibly covered by Leeds, or perhaps the one driver covering it dropped out

 

[miami]

You not recognising it, doesn't make it not true though. I'm willing to believe that the features of the London market are different to other cities and countries though.

The knowledge sets london black cab drivers apart. In a city like London, relying on satnav doesn't work. Too many roadworks, traffic oddities, and sneaky little short cuts. Uber cars I've been in have repeatedly taken very odd routes and I've had to direct them - and this is in zone 1. It would be unheard of for a black cabbie not to know how to get from canary wharf to blackfriars. An uber driver, however, managed a detour via london bridge and southwark....

For those who are in the regions and/or global, I can definitely see the attraction of uber as a global brand/interface.

If your claims that magical black cabs are so much better than Uber, the market will simply mean that people will casrry on using them, and nobody has to complain, cause road blockages, refuse to go south of the river, etc. Uber will either fill a niche for the tiny minority like myself, or will go under completely.

P.S. Got a minicab last night from Stockport station, he hadn't got a clue where he was going, had to direct him. Oh how I miss Uber.

Is Uber planning to open in more UK towns?

I got one in Reading, but that's cause he'd left it on after doing a shift in London and was very surprised to get a hit. The driver said they're planning to expand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does Uber Manchester not extend to Stockport?

 

[stut]

It does. Although the cars seem a little thin on the ground - mostly ones heading to/from the airport diverting en route.

 

[miami]

It does. Although the cars seem a little thin on the ground - mostly ones heading to/from the airport diverting en route.

Rare to get an uber at Stockport, especially late at night.

From what I can tell, Uber extends everywhere in the country if there's a car there. There's lots that hang out near the airport, and in the centre, 24/7. Elsewhere not so much coverage.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have to say that there is a world of a difference between 'black cabs' in London and 'black cabs' elsewhere in the UK. So the distinction to be drawn between Uber and Hackney operators in London is going to be quite a different distinction when drawn elsewhere.

At the risk of exaggeration, I'm inclined to say that I find some of the country's most efficient, courteous and competent drivers to be London Hackney drivers, and that many examples of the opposite are driving taxis outside London! (I tend to give Addison Lee branded vehicles a wide berth too!).

 

[St Rollox]

Would i be right in saying Uber have a strange pricing structure based on how busy it is.
Mate was in London, used Uber whilst on the lash up the west end (early hours Sunday morning) and found he'd paid £78 for what was a £15 journey on a Tuesday morning.

 

[miami]

Would i be right in saying Uber have a strange pricing structure based on how busy it is.
Mate was in London, used Uber whilst on the lash up the west end (early hours Sunday morning) and found he'd paid £78 for what was a £15 journey on a Tuesday morning.

Depends if you count basic economics of supply and demand as "strange".

When demand is high and supply is low, the price will go up. It's the same principle why you pay more for your train fare in the morning rush hour than on a wednesday lunchtime.

Your friend would have been warned about this, accepted, and actually had to confirm by typing in "5.2" into his/her phone.

 

[jonthetaxi]

The knowledge sets london black cab drivers apart. In a city like London, relying on satnav doesn't work. Too many roadworks, traffic oddities, and sneaky little short cuts. Uber cars I've been in have repeatedly taken very odd routes and I've had to direct them - and this is in zone 1. It would be unheard of for a black cabbie not to know how to get from canary wharf to blackfriars. An uber driver, however, managed a detour via london bridge and southwark...

100%! I've used a satnav. Sometimes the route they give you is unfathomable. I bought it specifically for working from Heathrow because you could get jobs going outside London where I haven't got a clue. On more than one occasion I gave the passenger a free fare of well over £40 because I was so embarrassed! It tried to make me turn right directly off a flyover then sent me in a dead end street telling me I had reached my destination. We definitely have the reputation of knowing where we are going but trying to tell this tourist that we learn all the streets and buildings of London and not Maidenhead just doesn't register and rather than risk our reputation I gave the fair for nothing, in the end I stopped using it and reverted to good old A-Z. I used to play around with it in London to test it out and if I took the routes it suggested, I would be embarrassed to call myself a London cabbie. There have been numerous tests by journalist's putting a London taxi driver against the sat nav and every single time the taxi wins hands down. I'm glad some people recognise that London does have a different structure than other places.

At the risk of exaggeration, I'm inclined to say that I find some of the country's most efficient, courteous and competent drivers to be London Hackney drivers, and that many examples of the opposite are driving taxis outside London! (I tend to give Addison Lee branded vehicles a wide berth too!).

Even though I'm leaving the trade shortly I do feel proud of my profession when people say this about us, most taxi drivers do take a pride in their work and genuinely try to do the best for the passenger, cheers DaveNewcastle!

Would i be right in saying Uber have a strange pricing structure based on how busy it is.
Mate was in London, used Uber whilst on the lash up the west end (early hours Sunday morning) and found he'd paid £78 for what was a £15 journey on a Tuesday morning.

That's right StRollox. The uber cheerleaders say 'surge pricing' is fair because you should expect to pay more when it's busy. If people want a cab home and lot's of people do at the same time their software detect's this and implement's surge pricing. During the last rail strike they were charging 4 times the normal rate. Friday nights, nights when it's raining, theatre burst time, demonstrations, or any time when it detects a rise in demand 'surging' kick's in. uber have a fantastic PR department which talks up their cheap prices but when everything is averaged out whether your a regular cab user or only rarely I don't think you'll save any more using uber but their PR spin's it that you can get home for nothing. Of course the modern use of credit card's where people (like your friend), who may have had a few drinks makes people less likely to question the fare because it's the "pay later" society we've created, by the time the bill comes in that friday night out is long forgotten and they just write it off.

 

[BestWestern]

Imagine the railway relaxing some rules and regulations to save money. It just wouldn't happen.

**cough DOO cough**


Perhaps the biggest question this raises, is why are there two different sent of rules for minicabs and Hackneys? From a consumer's point of view, why should passengers be seemingly treated in higher regard and worthy of better standards when using a cab off a rank rather than a private hire? Both are identical means of transport, both vehicles and their drivers should surely be equally safe and reputable? Could it perhaps be time to do away with the distinction and just have 'taxis' with universal regulation?

 

[jon0844]

DOO is one thing, but I'm talking about inevitable changes that will make the job of a driver more simple, and as such make it a less skilled job that means less money.

I am not convinced we'll get driverless trains throughout the rail network, but that's another threat too. Then it's not less pay, it's no job at all.

These things happen gradually and often people don't realise how they're contributing to making things happen because something is cheap and it doesn't directly affect them.

Uber clearly has a long term strategy and as I said, much of its value comes from the logistics side, not running a taxi service. It can wipe out competition then increase prices, then work towards driverless taxis.

It may be true that in 20 or 30 years all vehicles are driverless though, and perhaps that's what people want?

I work in tech so am fascinated about that side of things, but would I want to be sat in a taxi with no driver that follows a SatNav route and has no intelligence to react to local issues, and take a short detour or even turn around? Wouldn't it just sit in the traffic and wait?

I feel driverless cars, as is, are far too controlled for safety reasons for them to suddenly go off route.

 

[jopsuk]

It may not matter so much in the future- a lot of modern urban design thinking closes off potential "rat runs" to motor traffic (with appropriate measures to allow emergency vehicles through) to make streets better places to live, so the little "tricks" that cabbies no get removed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Your friend would have been warned about this, accepted, and actually had to confirm by typing in "5.2" into his/her phone.

That is a recent change; earlier versions of the Uber app did not have that.

 

[miami]

That is a recent change; earlier versions of the Uber app did not have that.

It's had it for well over a year.

I'd far rather have the choice of paying lots (as I need to travel now and there's barely anyone on the road), or waiting for things to quiet down, or walking, compared with now, where the only choice is waiting for things to quiet down or walking.

Globally, unlike the anti-competitive london cabbie industry where cost of entry is high, an Uber competitor has a low cost of entry, and Uber drivers can easily load up the "Flibble" app instead. The largest cost to entry in the market is the uncertainty over how protectionist governments will be (the U.S. is very communist in this regard). There's also the fact that Uber understands what people want.

This I believe is different in the UK (at least in Manchester) thanks to archaic minicab laws which say you can only work for 1 company - you need to work for Uber, or you need to work for Lyft. This keeps competition down, driver wages down, and prices high, another example of why regulation needs to be overturned. Keep the minimum standards for car maintenence, drivers, CRB checks, but get rid of the financial and obsolete rules like knowlege, driving for one company, bus lanes, etc.

 

[radamfi]

I put in M1 1AA to OL16 1AB (Manchester city centre to Rochdale town hall) into Uber and it quotes me £20 to £27. One of the main private hire taxi firms in Rochdale charges £18:

http://www.centraltaxisltd.co.uk/fare-guide/

Uber doesn't seem that cheap, unless it is cheaper than firms based near central Manchester. I do remember City of Manchester "black cabs" being very expensive though, but I haven't used one for about 20 years.

 

[mirodo]

I put in M1 1AA to OL16 1AB (Manchester city centre to Rochdale town hall) into Uber and it quotes me £20 to £27. One of the main private hire taxi firms in Rochdale charges £18:

http://www.centraltaxisltd.co.uk/fare-guide/

Uber doesn't seem that cheap, unless it is cheaper than firms based near central Manchester. I do remember City of Manchester "black cabs" being very expensive though, but I haven't used one for about 20 years.

From where I am (London SW8) to Heathrow T5:

Uber (Uber app): £32
Minicab (Kabbee app): £39
Black Cab (Hailo app): £62

To home:

Uber (Uber app): £18-24
Minicab (Kabbee app): £33
Black Cab (Hailo app): £39

 

[Tetchytyke]

an Uber competitor has a low cost of entry, and Uber drivers can easily load up the "Flibble" app instead.

IIRC Uber take a huge cut of the driver's takings, and they impose restrictions on who else an Uber driver can work for.

I don't have an issue with Uber providing choice in the market, distasteful as I find some of their business practices people can choose it if they want it. I have an issue with Uber acting as one type of taxi when it suits them and acting as the other when it suits them. Lets not pretend that Uber are some brave little underdog sticking it to The Man though.

 

[jon0844]

Like a lot of start ups, that's what they want people to think. Then people use them precisely to 'stick it to the man'. I mean, how dare Governments bring in rules to stop anyone doing what they want?

Despite the fact that if you look back to the 80s and 90s, there were loads of problems with unlicensed minicabs in London especially, and it took new rules and enforcement to get things under control.

And anyone remember this scandal? http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/18/...ally-threatens-sarah-lacy-with-smear-campaign

Uber's senior vice president of business, Emil Michael, floated the idea of spending $1 million to hire Uber's own team of researchers and journalists who would surreptitiously fight back against reporters by digging up dirt on their personal lives if they write bad stories about the company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have an issue with Uber acting as one type of taxi when it suits them and acting as the other when it suits them.

I don't at all. What if the hybrid of the two models is *actually* best for the customer? I'm increasingly convinced that it is.

(Speedline, the local firm in MK I referred to upthread, have now upgraded their software with a phone based meter, rather than using the odometer, and sat-nav...)

 

[miami]

I don't at all. What if the hybrid of the two models is *actually* best for the customer? I'm increasingly convinced that it is.

(Speedline, the local firm in MK I referred to upthread, have now upgraded their software with a phone based meter, rather than using the odometer, and sat-nav...)

If they can build a half-decent app that does the job, it shows that anyone can. Plenty of competition is available for a transport firm to just take it.

If there were people complaining about Uber's business practices, that's fine. Thanks to the ludditiotic behaviour of legacy taxis and minicabs though they just stick fingers in their ears and go "la la la nobody wants this, just phone Doris on 928-1111 and she'll get you a taxi if there's on available maybe at some point between now and half 4".

They aren't complaining about business practices though, they are complaining that technology is changing the world and they don't like it. Luddites don't last long - horse Whip manufacturers really struggled with Henry Ford. Those people carrying Red Flags were disgusted when they were no longer required. People with the knowledge are in tears that they've been replaced by an £80 device and someone willing to drive for peanuts.

IIRC Uber take a huge cut of the driver's takings

Yes, they do. Drivers know this, so can just stop driving for them. That pushes prices up (via Surge pricing), and then passengers stop.

The problem is that in many cases these people don't have any better prospects, so will happily work for peanuts. It's a cute way around minimum wage laws - which as a self employed person you're exempt from. The problem isn't limited to Uber though.

Perhaps Neil could have a word with his local company and get them to license the app to local minicab firms around the country. Have it so you load one app and can get a taxi from Milton Keynes to Penzance to Thurso to Dover. More competition is a good thing, but I'm personally only going to check a couple of apps.

and they impose restrictions on who else an Uber driver can work for.

No they don't. Local governments like Manchester do. New York were trying to do it at one point. Uber don't, and they can't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't at all. What if the hybrid of the two models is *actually* best for the customer? I'm increasingly convinced that it is.

That would, of course, depend on the hybrid model. Taking the best of both models could be a good thing. Taking the lack of regulation of one model and the flexibility of the other would be less of a good thing, IMHO.

Trying to take all the benefits of being a Hackney Carriage without any of the costs is quite simply not on. It isn't clever business, it isn't "innovative", it's simply deceitful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they can build a half-decent app that does the job, it shows that anyone can.

It's actually slightly better than Uber - the UI is a bit nicer, and you can book in advance. I think even if Uber came to MK I would stick with them. Another local company has a slightly better app but doesn't do card payment, and to me that is the real killer app.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps Neil could have a word with his local company and get them to license the app to local minicab firms around the country.

I think it might already work like that - the operator is shown in a field when you log into the online account (but obviously at present it's always the same).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would, of course, depend on the hybrid model. Taking the best of both models could be a good thing. Taking the lack of regulation of one model and the flexibility of the other would be less of a good thing, IMHO.

Trying to take all the benefits of being a Hackney Carriage without any of the costs is quite simply not on. It isn't clever business, it isn't "innovative", it's simply deceitful.

Or the Hackney carriage model is hopelessly costly and outdated, and deserves to die, but the regulation prevents it from doing so by preventing others innovating in the market.

Arguably, for example, the requirement for an approved design of cab (basically a TX1 or one of those modified Merc Vitos) inflates the cost of purchase excessively, when other locations don't demand the use of those. As I've said upthread, the "van-derived car" MPVs make a perfectly good[1] (in some ways superior) accessible substitute for about a third of the price.

And there's nothing deceitful about it. You can see a Hackney carriage, and you can see a car with a private hire plate on it. They don't even look remotely similar. There is no possible scope for confusion over which is which by anyone who knows about the UK's dual system, which will be the vast majority of Londoners if not all of them. Possibly not tourists, but to be honest I'd suggest tourists just get a Travelcard or Oyster card and not waste money on taxis of whatever kind.

[1] They don't have the turning circle, but I'm less than convinced that the ability to do U-turns on London roads is actually a thing we should be encouraging.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hackney Carriages in most cities outside London are just ordinary cars too. They may, or may not, be a specific colour (Leeds Hackney Carriages are white with a green stripe, for instance), but they are usually the same make and model of car that the Private Hire lot also use.

As for "outdated regulation", the rules outside London simply state that taxis picking up on the street need to meet certain basic criteria, mostly around the aptitude of the driver and the transparency of the fare structure.

And that's what bugs me about Uber. They want the ability to pick people up on the street, but they don't want to have to comply with the rules about a transparent fare structure. They want to be able to charge what they want, when they want.

And an app saying your fare will be about £x is not the same thing as a transparent fare structure. You can, of course, choose to tell Uber to stick it if you don't agree with the fare multiplier, but that isn't the same thing as transparency either.

It isn't fair on Hackney Carriage drivers that Uber can nab their customers and can charge them whatever the heck they want. Either we make Uber play by the rules or we let Hackney Carriage drivers make the fare up as they go along too. And I'm not sure the latter would be very good for consumers.

 

[miami]

And that's what bugs me about Uber. They want the ability to pick people up on the street, but they don't want to have to comply with the rules about a transparent fare structure. They want to be able to charge what they want, when they want.

And an app saying your fare will be about £x is not the same thing as a transparent fare structure.

It's very transparent - far more transparent than "1 groat per 400 rabbit paces plus threppence per milliwarhol unless it's after quarter past the moon's showing or on the 14th day after st swithin's day when it's 2 groats per 320 rabbit paces as long as you're travelling below 43 attoparsecs per picocentury".

With a London black cab there are 3 prices, and each of those prices has 3 sections (start, middle and end), and each section is either time based on distance based, and then there's extra charges depending how you book it, where you book it from, what public holiday it is, and how you want to pay. Then on top of that the price per metre can change while you're on route, and if you want to go to some places (say Epsom, or Heathrow Terminal 5 Holiday Inn Express) you have to be up for a negotiation. Oh and then some drivers will harass you for a "tip" like we're in america or something.

Instead with Uber it simply says "£22-26". If "tarriff 2" or "tarriff 3" (known as surge charging in uber land) is in play you're told this up front and have to specifically agree to it.

And I'm not sure the latter would be very good for consumers.

I do believe hackney cabs can charge whatever they want, but thanks to their unique monopoly (how many Addison lee or uber drivers can drive in bus lanes, or park for free in the middle of zone 1) they are limited to a maximum price. I'm sure you could charge less than what the meter says

I don't believe there's anything that says a London cab can't be an Uber driver either. Indeed there's a way to book a black cab using uber (although no way to estimate the fare though, far to complex for modern technology)