Tyne & Wear Metro - yellow card

[shrdlu]

Hi all,

I'm a regular traveller on the Metro and was stopped by a RPI not so long ago at Jesmond. I'd lost (genuinely lost!) my ticket, my details were taken, and I was (very graciously on the RPI's part, I recognise) issued a 'yellow card' notice, which is basically a warning on a slip of paper, and told that if I was caught again I'd be liable for a penalty fare.

I always buy a ticket so that shouldn't be a problem, and I have no dispute with Nexus/DB Regio (or any grounds to do so), I'm just curious as to the nature of this thing. Does it constitute a penalty notice? Are RPIs in other parts of the country liable to issue them, or is it a provision of the Metro system?

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like a Metro specific thing to me.

On other Train Companies who issue Penalty Fares, they'd just issue a Penalty Fare, and if you were subsequently able to prove a valid Season ticket was held they'd probably refund it (up to a limit). If it was a non-Season ticket, then it's a lot less likely they'd refund the PF I'd suspect, as anyone could have used it.

 

[Lm2606]

Sounds like a Metro specific thing to me.

On other Train Companies who issue Penalty Fares, they'd just issue a Penalty Fare, and if you were subsequently able to prove a valid Season ticket was held they'd probably refund it (up to a limit). If it was a non-Season ticket, then it's a lot less likely they'd refund the PF I'd suspect, as anyone could have used it.

I have not seen or heard of the yellow card on Metro but I do think it is something for people if they have genuinely lost their ticket/pass.

 

[Paul_10]

I have not seen or heard of the yellow card on Metro but I do think it is something for people if they have genuinely lost their ticket/pass.

But then its the classic of how do you tell when a person is genuine or not? Body language, clothes they are wearing, how they react to being caught without a ticket?

Should everyone be treated the same regardless? If you can't produce a ticket then you should be fined regardless who you are. Of course, if there is a case of where a ticket was lost during the journey then maybe you can defend yourself by asking control to check over CCTV too see if you actually bought a ticket or not.

The yellow card scheme sounds good on paper but surely its impossible to implement fairly?

 

[bravot]

But then its the classic of how do you tell when a person is genuine or not? Body language, clothes they are wearing, how they react to being caught without a ticket?

Should everyone be treated the same regardless? If you can't produce a ticket then you should be fined regardless who you are. Of course, if there is a case of where a ticket was lost during the journey then maybe you can defend yourself by asking control to check over CCTV too see if you actually bought a ticket or not.

The yellow card scheme sounds good on paper but surely its impossible to implement fairly?

I think that you are inflating this slightly. Any resolution is always a judgement call of the relevant decision maker and is up to them to justify before a relevant authority.

This seems like a perfectly sensible alternative to a straight penalty fare/prosecution and was perfectly reasonable in the described circumstances.

 

[Clip]

I think that you are inflating this slightly. Any resolution is always a judgement call of the relevant decision maker and is up to them to justify before a relevant authority.

This seems like a perfectly sensible alternative to a straight penalty fare/prosecution and was perfectly reasonable in the described circumstances.

I differ. If you dont present a ticket when asked then a PF(usual caveats apply) is the only thing that should be offered.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I wonder whether Clip would feel similarly if (s)he were - oh, I dunno -

-: issued a (road) speeding ticket because (s)he missed a limit sign that was partly obsured by trees
-: penalised by a supermarket because (s)he walked out of the store with an item of clothing, properly bought, but there was - completely unknown to him/her - another item of clothing on the same hanger, that was not paid for

or any other completely innocent action. Absolutely zero discretion to be applied by the enforcing official, ever, anywhere, regardless of any mitigating circumstances? Really?

 

[Class377]

Which is why a penalty fare would be issued instead of starting prosecution proceedings?

 

[Deerfold]

I wonder whether Clip would feel similarly if (s)he were - oh, I dunno -

-: issued a (road) speeding ticket because (s)he missed a limit sign that was partly obsured by trees

or any other completely innocent action. Absolutely zero discretion to be applied by the enforcing official, ever, anywhere, regardless of any mitigating circumstances? Really?

Presumably that'd be like someone not having passed an open ticket office or a working ticket machine - which would be fine as arguments for not having paid yet.

 

[Clip]

I wonder whether Clip would feel similarly if (s)he were - oh, I dunno -

-: issued a (road) speeding ticket because (s)he missed a limit sign that was partly obsured by trees

This must be the sillest comparison I have ever seen on this forum. I do believe the councils/highway agency have a legal obligation to ensure all signage is not obstructed and can be read. Just the same as a passenger has to offer up a valid ticket blah blah blah.

-: penalised by a supermarket because (s)he walked out of the store with an item of clothing, properly bought, but there was - completely unknown to him/her - another item of clothing on the same hanger, that was not paid for

If I ever bought clothes from a supermarket then please shoot me BUT if that did happen and the supermarket called the Police on me I would get them to scan teh CCTV to show that I did not intentionally steal something but again they have to follow the legal process to prosecute me.

And on that last point please take note of 'prosecute' a totally different thing from what a PF is.

And yes, really. Really Really Really.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The yellow card scheme sounds good on paper but surely its impossible to implement fairly?

I don't see why? The passenger's details were noted and if the same thing should happen again then their details will be on record. DB Regio can then decide whether it is a systematic attempt to defraud the system.

I think it is a very good use of discretion, to be honest. Very sensible. It's a shame other people seem to take the view that each and every passenger is a villainous crook who should be chinged for every last penny they've got.

On Network Rail an RPI does not have to issue a Penalty Fare either. They have discretion to issue you with a normal ticket, and if you pass the attitude test they may well do so.

 

[Clip]

I think it is a very good use of discretion, to be honest. Very sensible. It's a shame other people seem to take the view that each and every passenger is a villainous crook who should be chinged for every last penny they've got.

.

Ooh do they? Who are these people?

And I dont think Network rail employ RPIs but ill not mention it

 

[Tetchytyke]

And I dont think Network rail employ RPIs but ill not mention it

"On a train service operated by one of the Train Operating Companies who participate in the Penalty Fares Scheme as defined by the Penalty Fare Regulations 2002".

That any better? You know exactly what I meant, i.e. heavy rail train services as opposed to light rail services.

 

[Clip]

I was more enquiring about these people you mention that

take the view that each and every passenger is a villainous crook who should be chinged for every last penny they've got.

 

[185]

I always buy a ticket so that shouldn't be a problem, and I have no dispute with Nexus/DB Regio (or any grounds to do so), I'm just curious as to the nature of this thing. Does it constitute a penalty notice? Are RPIs in other parts of the country liable to issue them, or is it a provision of the Metro system?

I heard about this scheme some weeks ago, and I think it is a very lenient and clever way of operating a penalty fare scheme - it's a formal way of issuing a 'telling-off' without actually fining someone, whilst from an inspector's point of view puts something on file to refer to at subsequent incidents.

I would suspect at subsequent incidents, DB T&W would feel more justified to issue a PF/Fine or proceed to prosecution in more serious cases.

 

[bb21]

Isn't this what Northern are supposed to do for first offences?

We all know how that one went, so I think thumbs up to DB Regio / Nexus.

 

[FenMan]

I differ. If you dont present a ticket when asked then a PF(usual caveats apply) is the only thing that should be offered.

A few weeks ago I genuinely lost my ticket when travelling from Paddington to Blackwater* (PFs are applicable). I went to the platform-side ticket office at Reading to explain my predicament and, after consultation with a supervisor, was sold a suitable single ticket so I could complete my journey.

*I had the ticket when going through the barriers at Paddington and, stupidly, left it on the train when changing at Reading.