Tyne & Wear Metro: Fleet Refurbishment List

[Scott M]

One thing for sure, it isn't going to get any better soon.

What makes you think that? I really am worried now if employees aren't towing the company line! D:

 

[142094]

What makes you think that? I really am worried now if employees aren't towing the company line! D:

Current stock will only become worse over time, increase maintenance costs for little rewards mileage-wise.

Current planning is for a cut to services in January, which in effect will mean more time for maintenance and less mileage. However, if you do not have enough staff to do the maintenance, or the necessary spare parts, then very little will change.

I haven't found out what caused the failure this morning but I do know that there were two failures last week caused by the same fault, which could have been a lot worse were it not for the effort of the drivers involved.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Current stock will only become worse over time, increase maintenance costs for little rewards mileage-wise.

Current planning is for a cut to services in January, which in effect will mean more time for maintenance and less mileage. However, if you do not have enough staff to do the maintenance, or the necessary spare parts, then very little will change.

I haven't found out what caused the failure this morning but I do know that there were two failures last week caused by the same fault, which could have been a lot worse were it not for the effort of the drivers involved.

It's a shame that it has came to this, it is a mixture of government failure and Nexus woeful delays in designing a coherent strategy for Metro and public transport in Tyne & Wear; you can't get funding for something when you haven't put your hat in the ring! It is saddening how the network is really being chocked by the archaic infrastructure and how it is being disguised by the pennies that are being invested after years of deprivation. As you said, there is little hope for things to get better, as the money just isn't being pumped into the network.

Personally, as much as we say DB was a scapegoat, they have run the stock down and failed to provide their tender contract continuously. Obviously there are many issues linked to this, but they are not short of any blame for the dire performance. All of this said, it isn't the fault of any drivers or any front line staff for that matter. I know from talks with some that you guys are in a similar positon to some passengers, shocked at Nexus and how they fail at every single level; Keep up the good work 142094.

One would hope January's timetable change will cause not only the anticipated public uproar, but also a political one, so that the 'Northern powerhouse' soundbite may become more of a reality. I for one will demand that my MP puts pressure upon Nexus and the DfT.

Just out of curiosity, can you give us a bit more info regarding the Hebburn/Gateshead Stadium incidents? Also, I wonder if you can get FOI requests in for this stuff from Nexus Rail, being publically owned?

 

[ModernRailways]

One would hope January's timetable change will cause not only the anticipated public uproar, but also a political one, so that the 'Northern powerhouse' soundbite may become more of a reality. I for one will demand that my MP puts pressure upon Nexus and the DfT.

There will be no uproar at all. There will be complaints, but it's mostly peak time trains being removed and services being given more dwell times with shorter turnarounds. That 'Northern Powerhouse' you speak of is George Osborne's baby, none of the current lot on Government seem to speak much of it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There will be no uproar at all. There will be complaints, but it's mostly peak time trains being removed and services being given more dwell times with shorter turnarounds.

What are the plans for January? Nexus came on this thread to say it wasn't true, but clearly something is up as the rumours just don't go away.

It depends what the peak changes are. If some of the Regent Centre shorts get binned nobody will notice, they're always empty. With the timetabling of the evening Monkseaton-Pelaw shorts right behind a South Shields train nobody would notice their loss either, if we're honest. But if the core frequency, both in the daytimes and in the evenings, is cut, people will notice. I don't think Metro could cope with only 3tph Newcastle-Sunderland or Newcastle-The Coast in the evenings, though the Airport and South Shields lines probably could if we're honest. It'll be interesting to see if Nexus go back to terminating half the trains at Park Lane.

The issue with the system is that the Sunderland extension was done on the cheap. The Sunderland extension needed new trains to cope with it, and Metro has struggled ever since because they didn't buy them. They tried stopping half the trains at Park Lane and then they cut the standard frequency from 6tph to 5tph on each line to try and make it more robust, but the simple fact is they don't have enough units to run the service they want to run. With brand new reliable units they may have done, just, but with 30-year-old Metro Cammell rust buckets they certainly don't.

DB Regio can't escape plenty of blame either, they did exactly what they did on the Berlin S-Bahn: cut maintenance right back to the bone and then act surprised when the trains fail.

But I don't have any faith in the idiots at NECA to actually change anything at all because they don't seem to think they have to change anything. We have this pathetic service despite the all-zones Metrosaver going up by 20% in two years, and NECA come out in policy documents and say the all-zones card is drastically underpriced and needs to cost £900! Meanwhile they're cutting the zone A price and giving the students who cause most of the crowding issues a 30% discount. Quite frankly, Nick Forbes couldn't find his own backside with both hands and a map.

 

[MetroCar4058]

There will be no uproar at all. There will be complaints.

Complaints are linked to public uproar. I hope that people channel this into constructive means, as I previously said.

That 'Northern Powerhouse' you speak of is George Osborne's baby, none of the current lot on Government seem to speak much of it.

It may well have been, but this was mentioned in the Autumn statement and there is a minister responsible for this soundbite, so it isn't completely dead.



Arctic Troll has hit the nail on the head from my perspective. Although I would say 3tph would not suffice anywhere

 

[142094]

New timetable expected from January, and from what I have heard at least two peak services in both the morning and evening will be removed, more than likely to be those that do the least mileage. For example, 116 (which is always the first to be cancelled on an evening if there are not enough spare sets) only does Depot - Monkseaton sidings - Pelaw - Regent Centre. Very unlikely that this one will be missed.

I haven't heard about evening service but it was rumoured at the time that this would reduce from current levels.

 

[MetroCar4058]

New timetable expected from January, and from what I have heard at least two peak services in both the morning and evening will be removed, more than likely to be those that do the least mileage. For example, 116 (which is always the first to be cancelled on an evening if there are not enough spare sets) only does Depot - Monkseaton sidings - Pelaw - Regent Centre. Very unlikely that this one will be missed.

I haven't heard about evening service but it was rumoured at the time that this would reduce from current levels.

I totally agree with the cancelling of some peaks, I don't think it would really hurt the service at all, if anything. However, hitting the core service may be risky; do we really want this years passenger number slump to continue?

 

[jkkne]

I tend to let much busier peak workings sail past to catch a Regent St or Pelaw on return through the Central Belt.

If I had to squeeze into a busy working I'd probably take the bus instead. I think those short peak workings would be missed.

As for complaints, it'd probably be filed under the 'Its Metro, we've no hope anymore' which seems to populate the Sort out the Metro style groups.

 

[Tramfan]

I tend to let much busier peak workings sail past to catch a Regent St or Pelaw on return through the Central Belt.

Me too, and the Regent Centre starter that I normally aim for was missing yesterday as it was presumably stuck somewhere behind the failed train at Heworth - the South Hylton one I ended up on was absolutely rammed. I sometimes end up on train 141 in the morning, which I think is last from depot in the mornings, so presumably this one would be cut..

Ideally, i'd rather see some of the Regent Centre services diverted to Monkseaton, as the trains on that stretch are normally rammed by the time I see them at South Gosforth, but you'd need to increase the number of trains in service, not reduce them.

On a separate note, I enjoyed a spectacular fireworks display courtesy of the frost on the OHL this morning, creating some enormous flashes from the pantographs.

 

[jkkne]

Ideally, i'd rather see some of the Regent Centre services diverted to Monkseaton, as the trains on that stretch are normally rammed by the time I see them at South Gosforth, but you'd need to increase the number of trains in service, not reduce them.

When I've used those services they tend to empty out at Longbenton (school and DWP offices) and the rest at Four Lane Ends (presumably Quorum workers connecting to the shuttle or walking down) it's normally very light loadings after that.

I've noticed evening peak runs to Regent Centre are rammed. Still, I do think folk underestimate those short peak runs relieving congestion. Most of the central belt has a reliable cheaper bus service (or is within working distance)

 

[Tetchytyke]

When I've used those services they tend to empty out at Longbenton (school and DWP offices) and the rest at Four Lane Ends (presumably Quorum workers connecting to the shuttle or walking down) it's normally very light loadings after that.

It depends which way you're travelling. In a morning the shorts towards town are very busy- all seats will normally be taken by Shiremoor- but the trains away from town are really only busy to Longbenton. The reverse is true in the evening, but with the caveat that in the evening most of the shorts run behind the normal train, not in front of it, so they by default tend to be quieter.

IME the Regent Centre trains are not very busy at all, with the exception of one in each direction taking workers to the business park there.

 

[Scott M]

It is almost as if there are problems with so many of the trains, metro adopts an 'Sod it, just send them out and deal with it when one inevitably fails' approach. I assume this is in contrast to most TOCs who would withhold suspect units to avoid them breaking down and causing problems.

Disappointed in Nexus if what has been said is true regarding them simply leaving it too late to apply for funding, and even more so in DB Regio if what was said about them cutting maintenance to the bare bones to cut costs is true. Although if they had track record in this as suggested, surely Nexus should have seen the warning bells in advance of giving them the contract?

 

[ModernRailways]

I haven't heard about evening service but it was rumoured at the time that this would reduce from current levels.

From what I know the evening plan has been pushed back as more of a last case scenario. Again, from what I know there are plans for 2018 which will involve service going every 15 minutes on the branches during the day - currently 12 minutes - and then being strengthened at peaks wth peak services being extended further rather than terminating at Pelaw/Gosforth etc.

I have been shown an internal email from Nexus which outlines a few of their plans and it's definitely not looking good for the next 6 years - they expect the first new train to start testing in late 2021/2022. The service has been incredibly to being grounded 3 times in the last 18 months due to faults etc. That to me is significantly worrying and if going by the chaos that was the overhead wire fault last week I'll definitely start looking into other ways of getting around. It took me 1 and a half hours to get to Newcastle from Heworth. A 10/15 minute journey normally. The information on social media was there but often times the staff on the ground had no idea what was happening. I think a lot of people will get a shock when they start to see Nexus can't magically fix it when DB manage to run away.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Shields Ferry being off due to storm damage at North Shields landing hasn't helped things last week, it has to be said, nor have the roadworks on the Felling bypass. The main issue, though, is contingency. Nexus and DB Regio are appalling at getting rail replacement bus services up and running and they are very quick at pulling ticket acceptance on local bus services, presumably because they don't want to pay for it. Last time it went up the spout here they only had three buses out running Four Lane Ends-Shiremoor return yet still pulled ticket acceptance on the 19, 53 and 54.

Cutting Monday to Friday daytime to 4tph on each line probably won't even be noticed. But when we think they used to run 12tph North Shields-St James at one point, it really is quite pathetic. It's no wonder fare revenue is down.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Cutting Monday to Friday daytime to 4tph on each line probably won't even be noticed. But when we think they used to run 12tph North Shields-St James at one point, it really is quite pathetic. It's no wonder fare revenue is down.

I do agree. If I'm honest, the actual frequency doesn't matter when looking at perception. It is the fact that the service is being eroded which reduces public confidence. This is coupled with the fact that if there is an issue with 4tph, there are likely to be greater delays, consequently more people will haemorrhage onto our archaic road infrastructure or rapidly improving bus operators. Lest we remember the days of much higher patronage despite the drastically smaller network.

Metro should be wiping the floor clean over car travel on many routes, the same applies for bus operators. But, the broken record of dire investment has led to a loss of faith in the service. Id like to emphasise on how much the bus operators are improving their services also; efficient heating and cooling, free wifi and the introduction of bus lanes from the council has drastically improved their competitive edge. Its a shame Metro isn't keeping up.

 

[markydh]

Bus lanes are significantly cheaper than metro upgrades! I would like to point out that the metro reinvigoration programme was bid for and agreed by the last Labour government. They insisted upon the concession model as part of that 'deal'. The fact the the rolling stock was found to be significantly more worn than originally believed has exacerbated the issue with reliability, along with the somewhat cheap and cheerful attitude to maintenance in the name of 'profit' by Arriva. The system (like most rail systems) was woefully underinvested in throughout the Tory and New Labour years and we are now paying for that.

 

[jkkne]

It took me 35 minutes on the bus tonight from Quorum/Four Lane Ends to Newcastle and that's an average most nights. Metro would do it in 10.

Metro came into its own tonight, as it does, when Newcastle and Gateshead were gridlocked due to a Tyne Bridge closure.

You only need to look at the traffic when Metro went down last week to see the areas roads couldn't cope without Metro. Buses curtailed, huge delays, massive queues etc

 

[ModernRailways]

It took me 35 minutes on the bus tonight from Quorum/Four Lane Ends to Newcastle and that's an average most nights. Metro would do it in 10.

Metro came into its own tonight, as it does, when Newcastle and Gateshead were gridlocked due to a Tyne Bridge closure.

You only need to look at the traffic when Metro went down last week to see the areas roads couldn't cope without Metro. Buses curtailed, huge delays, massive queues etc

It should be noted though that there are roadworks on the Felling bypass currently which just made it 10 times worse last week.

Metro is almost always quicker than driving or matches the driving time. It starts to change once you need to change trains and factor in any delays.

Metro is a needed service. It also needs investment or more people will stop using it because it's unreliable. This will in turn mean the Govt won't want to spend as much on improving it because pax numbers aren't great and in turn we'll be stuck with cheaper, more prone to failure, trains.

Nexus have specified that Metro's new stock will need to be dual voltage and of a unique design so that alone will boost the cost unless a company slightly modifies an existing design they have. In the end it will simply be down to cost, but I just hope they don't go for the cheapest option. They really need to be aiming for a longer term option.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It took me 35 minutes on the bus tonight from Quorum/Four Lane Ends to Newcastle and that's an average most nights. Metro would do it in 10.

The pinch point there is at Haddricks Mill roundabout, which Newcastle City Council are intending to replace in the next few years, along with widening Killingworth Road/Salters Lane under the Metro bridge. Haddricks Mill is a pinch point that should have been sorted out 20 years ago but wasn't, which is the story of the north east's transport infrastructure.

At quiet times the X7/X8 bus can get from Quorum to town in 10 minutes, which is much faster than the Metro. The issue is the peak traffic at that roundabout, on bad days it can take 15 minutes to get from the BT Call Centre at the top of Salters Lane just to the roundabout at Haddricks Mill.

I do agree. If I'm honest, the actual frequency doesn't matter when looking at perception. It is the fact that the service is being eroded which reduces public confidence.

I think the frequency does matter, for a similar reason to what you're saying. A train every 10 minutes or less is a turn-up-and-go service, so people don't look at timetables and so they don't notice if a train is a few minutes late.

For me, even a 12-minute frequency isn't turn-up-and-go so I look at the timetable, a 15-minute frequency certainly isn't, and so delays are noticed. It might only be 3-5 minutes, which you could lose with one cycle of traffic lights in a car, but in the context of a 20-minute journey time to town and in the context of Metro stations being so unpleasant to wait at people notice. And when people notice their trains are always delayed they start to lose patience with the service, and then they look for alternatives.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

From what I know the evening plan has been pushed back as more of a last case scenario. Again, from what I know there are plans for 2018 which will involve service going every 15 minutes on the branches during the day - currently 12 minutes - and then being strengthened at peaks wth peak services being extended further rather than terminating at Pelaw/Gosforth etc.

I have been shown an internal email from Nexus which outlines a few of their plans and it's definitely not looking good for the next 6 years - they expect the first new train to start testing in late 2021/2022. The service has been incredibly to being grounded 3 times in the last 18 months due to faults etc. That to me is significantly worrying and if going by the chaos that was the overhead wire fault last week I'll definitely start looking into other ways of getting around. It took me 1 and a half hours to get to Newcastle from Heworth. A 10/15 minute journey normally. The information on social media was there but often times the staff on the ground had no idea what was happening. I think a lot of people will get a shock when they start to see Nexus can't magically fix it when DB manage to run away.

Pretty sure you've posted something very similar to this before and you were found out to be lying.

 

[ModernRailways]

Pretty sure you've posted something very similar to this before and you were found out to be lying.

I think you mean this one. Posted in March of this year (2016)

We don't normally comment directly on posts in forums, but we would like to point out the above claims are completely untrue. There are no discussions about reducing service frequency and Nexus can afford the service we specify - passenger numbers have risen sharply in the last two years and Metro now operates without local council subsidy, on a combination of fares and Government rail grant.

Now, passenger numbers are down. And service frequency is being reduced but no I'm definitely lying and not just going from what I've heard by staff at Nexus and Metro.

 

[Scott M]

Another day, another failed train grinding the system to a halt and resulting in bus replacement services. Not a chance this system will last until 2022 if what ModernRailways says is correct. Scandalous really, they would never let this happen to the Tube.

 

[MetroCar4058]

they would never let this happen to the Tube.

TFL are in some ways similar, the Pic and Bakerloo line are operating with ancient stock, beyond their design life and older than the MetroCars. The difference is, TFL has a plan and that is admittedly down to better funding, but also much better planning and taxation systems in London which support TfL.
The Pic is currently operating to a severely disrupted timetable due to half of the stock being out of service due to flats; this is likely to be happening over a 3 week timetable. So we are rather lucky in some respects.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone had a chance to get down to Central, what do yous think of it? I must say, not exactly impressed and it still appears to be nowhere near done.

 

[ModernRailways]

Anyone had a chance to get down to Central, what do yous think of it? I must say, not exactly impressed and it still appears to be nowhere near done.

Central is a joke tbh. The platform lighting is terrible and should have been either in the middle of the platform, or at the edge instead you're left with the platform edge being darker, and the back of the platform against the wall being brighter. The platforms in general are darker since the refurb.

The escalators to the concourse from the platforms look terrible too, some of the roof panels haven't been cut properly and so their are gaps. Some of the tiling still hasn't been done. Its bright but it looks cheap and tacky.

When compared to Haymarket it just looks absolutely appalling and that every possible corner was cut. I certainly hope that when they refurb Monument it is done to Haymarket's standard rather than Central Stations standard.

 

[glbotu]

Central is a joke tbh. The platform lighting is terrible and should have been either in the middle of the platform, or at the edge instead you're left with the platform edge being darker, and the back of the platform against the wall being brighter. The platforms in general are darker since the refurb.

The escalators to the concourse from the platforms look terrible too, some of the roof panels haven't been cut properly and so their are gaps. Some of the tiling still hasn't been done. Its bright but it looks cheap and tacky.

When compared to Haymarket it just looks absolutely appalling and that every possible corner was cut. I certainly hope that when they refurb Monument it is done to Haymarket's standard rather than Central Stations standard.

I mean, I think the most ridiculous thing about it is that it's taken closing Central Station from 8pm each evening for the last year, to deliver stuff that it takes TfL about 2 nights to do. The gaps and stuff is just because it's NOT FINISHED YET!!!!

I think they either misunderstood why Haymarket looks so good at platform level. Largely the space. It looks like a tube station, because you don't have a massive awning over your head and the entire tunnelled section is visible. By not painting/cladding around the entire tunnel section and by keeping the stupid awning, it just looks like a whiter version of what was there before.

In its defence, the signage is much clearer and it kind of looks more professional than Monument, Jesmond and Manors.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I mean, I think the most ridiculous thing about it is that it's taken closing Central Station from 8pm each evening for the last year, to deliver stuff that it takes TfL about 2 nights to do.

Wasn't a huge part of the problem all the asbestos? In fairness, TfL don't do station refurbishments any quicker, most stations getting a full overhaul will be shut for months at a time. Tottenham Court Road's Central Line platforms were shut permanently for about six months.

I don't understand the hate on the refurbishment at Central, the lighting is plenty bright enough, the signage is a lot better, and the departure monitors at the top of the escalators (when they work!) is a good touch. Compare it to the 80s timewarp at Jesmond.

 

[glbotu]

Wasn't a huge part of the problem all the asbestos? In fairness, TfL don't do station refurbishments any quicker, most stations getting a full overhaul will be shut for months at a time. Tottenham Court Road's Central Line platforms were shut permanently for about six months.

I don't understand the hate on the refurbishment at Central, the lighting is plenty bright enough, the signage is a lot better, and the departure monitors at the top of the escalators (when they work!) is a good touch. Compare it to the 80s timewarp at Jesmond.

I think it's just that it's basically a lick of paint and some LCD monitors. Tottenham Court Road needed, I think, a whole new passage boring out to the new Crossrail platforms. That's some serious civil engineering. Central is, well, not that.

I didn't realise about the asbestos, though, that would certainly slow them down (although I'm still dubious about the time it took).

It's not that it's not better, it's that it's taken a very long time and hasn't achieved a great deal.

 

[MetroCar4058]

My thoughts are with the driver, passengers and deceased this evening. Very saddening.

 

[Scott M]

Not the best adhesion South Shields - Pelaw this morning, which is rather surprising as most of the leaves seem gone.

Track brake was used coming into both Bede and Jarrow, which as you can imagine in a packed rush hour metro with several people standing isn't ideal. Also jerked/skidded quite bad when attempting to brake for the foot crossing between Hebburn and Pelaw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TFL are in some ways similar, the Pic and Bakerloo line are operating with ancient stock, beyond their design life and older than the MetroCars. The difference is, TFL has a plan and that is admittedly down to better funding, but also much better planning and taxation systems in London which support TfL.
The Pic is currently operating to a severely disrupted timetable due to half of the stock being out of service due to flats; this is likely to be happening over a 3 week timetable. So we are rather lucky in some respects.

Didn't realise LU was that bad! As you say though, at least they have a plan.