Tyne & Wear Metro: Fleet Refurbishment List

[ModernRailways]

Regarding the refurbished units doors I had to push the left door open on 4072 at the Interchange!

I've noticed that almost all the time on every refurb that at least one door is sticky and needs a shove to open.

 

[MetroCar4058]

I'm currently away on holiday and heard there was a fire today after OHLE snapped, can anyone post an update on this? Cheers in advance

 

[ModernRailways]

I'm currently away on holiday and heard there was a fire today after OHLE snapped, can anyone post an update on this? Cheers in advance

Not sure about a fire, but the OHLE was brought down at Walkergate. If there was a fire, then there will likely be a RAIB report.

 

[valenta]

Further significant problems today with a major power outage near South Gosforth causing trains to be suspended system wide for a short period and significant delays once power was restored.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Not a good couple of days for the metro - I doubt there was a 'fire' as such at Walkergate as I assue the wires cut out when they break as the circuit isn't complete anymore? Is it the heat that gets to the OHLE? Today's incident was out of Metros control but I assume the masses won't see it like that

 

[ModernRailways]

Not a good couple of days for the metro - I doubt there was a 'fire' as such at Walkergate as I assue the wires cut out when they break as the circuit isn't complete anymore? Is it the heat that gets to the OHLE? Today's incident was out of Metros control but I assume the masses won't see it like that

I did some digging around about yesterdays (11/08) incident and speaking to a driver she gave me some quite interesting news. Metrocar 4090 was the metrocar involved, apparently the train itself caught fire and resulted in the OHLE coming down.

As for today's (12/08) incident, as Gosforth is Metro HQ if the power goes off then the system goes off. Metro HQ uses the National Power Grid at Gosforth, and that powers the CCTV Monitor, Station Help Point, signalling control systems etc. and so because nothing could be viewed it meant all trains had to be stopped. Amazing to think though they don't have any backup power source.

 

[142094]

Not a good couple of days for the metro - I doubt there was a 'fire' as such at Walkergate as I assue the wires cut out when they break as the circuit isn't complete anymore? Is it the heat that gets to the OHLE? Today's incident was out of Metros control but I assume the masses won't see it like that

Sounds as if it is a similar event to the one that happened a few years back between South Gosforth and Longbenton. In that case a fault on the train and a fault in the substation meant that current was continued to be drawn from the overheads when it should have tripped. Eventually this can weaken and then snap the contact wire.
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One issue is that they cannot read National Rail tickets - even those that are valid on the Metro. This means that there has to be a member of staff there to check the tickets and open the gates manually.

Similar problem at the mainline station at Central. Various Metro issued tickets which are valid but have to be checked by someone on the barrier.
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I was wondering if any units have went down as I never really noticed any units missing from the system for a while(apart from 4040 but with it just recently a revised Emirates ad, i did thought it was unlikely it would of headed to Donny and its now back on the system) and I never seen 4036 on the system yet but that could just be down to luck though!

4036 is still at the depot undergoing commissioning. Should be out in the next week or so I believe.
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I was just thinking the other day if any had units had came from and gone to to wabtec,but debated asking,i know

this might sound thiick,but does anyone know why on unrefurbed metrocars there are white panels on the cab,not

sure if its both cabs that have got them or if its just A end

The panels are for access to various bits of electrical equipment. Old grey panels are being replaced with two new white panels.
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Regarding the refurbished units doors I had to push the left door open on 4072 at the Interchange!

A door sticking is an uncommon problem, sometimes due to dirt/debris along the bottom of the door. Gets worse in summer due to the heat, but by no means is a major problem. Doing a quick sum in my head, a train on the St. James to South Shields line per day will stop at stations 300+ times, so that is potentially 300+ times where the doors will be opening and closing. Times that by 8 for the number of doors on each side of a 2 car train, so that is 2400 door cycles. A higher intensity of operation compared to the doors on probably a lot of trains in the UK.

 

[Paul_10]

Well 4036 was out on the peaks this afternoon with 4082 but once it terminated at Pelaw it stayed there and the train went out of service due to a fault i presume.

Regarding the incident near Walkergate, if it is a similar incident then it is a bit concerning although reading the RAIB report on 4052 incident then there has been also other type of incidents in the past, very rare of course but it is a concern as of course passengers safety is at risk.

 

[ModernRailways]

Regarding the incident near Walkergate, if it is a similar incident then it is a bit concerning although reading the RAIB report on 4052 incident then there has been also other type of incidents in the past, very rare of course but it is a concern as of course passengers safety is at risk.

Whilst it is rare for something as serious to happen, the refurbs seem to be failing at a ridiculous rate and over time the problems will only get bigger as the trains pass their 'expiry date' and are still forced to run an extra 10 years+.

It's funny, Nexus keep fining DB for late/cancelled trains and as a result DB don't have the money to put into the system meaning more fines from Nexus for delays etc. I wouldn't be surprised if DB pull out because right now Nexus are causing a s*** ton more trouble than there needs to be. It's not DB's fault Nexus chose to go for a more expensive (in the long run) option in refurbishing our pretty much knackered stock.

 

[markydh]

You really do like rewriting history to make keep your crusade against NEXUS going. I suggest you try reading the ITA minutes from when the invigoration project was first announced. They were awarded government funding on the basis that a concession was let and stock was given life extending refurbs. New stock was and is still part of phase 3 of the process which will only get the final go ahead once phase 2 government targets have been shown to have been met.

 

[Paul_10]

Indeed, it was always agreed new stock would not come until Phase 3 of the project and perhaps in hindsight, Nexus should of started to draw up plans earlier on about new stock instead of concentrating on unrealistic(imo) projects of street tram running but DB knew what they were signing up for and they know if they don't meet Nexus targets then they will risk of incurring fines.

The trains are showing their age but as a regular user of the Metro to head to and from work, I can honestly say there was only one occasion where I thought I was going to be late due to an issue on the metro since starting me job last August and I have to use the metro 5 days a week.

Its not perfect and yes there are countless trains withdrawn from service which don't get reported but considering the units are over 30 years old, is this really too much of a surprise? Most delays on the Metro are not especially severe(compare to the mainline) and I just feel people need to head out earlier just in the event of any delays.

 

[ModernRailways]

You really do like rewriting history to make keep your crusade against NEXUS going. I suggest you try reading the ITA minutes from when the invigoration project was first announced. They were awarded government funding on the basis that a concession was let and stock was given life extending refurbs. New stock was and is still part of phase 3 of the process which will only get the final go ahead once phase 2 government targets have been shown to have been met.

I don't have a crusade against Nexus... They've done quite a lot for our transport, but when they mess things up why shouldn't they be pointed out? Why can't facts be posted? Metro has no money, because they are being fined by Nexus. That means no new staff employed by DB and no money from DB being put back into the system. The no new staff also means they can't get more staff in the depot to help maintain the trains better which also won't be helping.

I'm well aware of why they couldn't get new trains, they weren't sure if the Government at the time would fund new trains and so by choosing to go for refurbishment they were almost guaranteed the funding. However, they knew these refurbs wouldn't last 20 years, but that's what they are wanting now and quite simply it isn't going to work. As I mentioned previously, a member of Nexus staff in the travel shop was saying how she's heard that in 10/15 years we will be seeing a reduced train service because the trains won't be able to cope. And that's from a Nexus member of staff, it may just be rumour but there sure is likely some truth behind it.

If people don't question these things than nothing will be done and we'll just have to suffer an inferior service. The Metro service is booming, lots of people using it to get around and ditching their cars. You will lose all those people if nothing is done and it will only put more pressure onto our already overcrowded roads.

Indeed, it was always agreed new stock would not come until Phase 3 of the project and perhaps in hindsight, Nexus should of started to draw up plans earlier on about new stock instead of concentrating on unrealistic(imo) projects of street tram running but DB knew what they were signing up for and they know if they don't meet Nexus targets then they will risk of incurring fines.

The trains are showing their age but as a regular user of the Metro to head to and from work, I can honestly say there was only one occasion where I thought I was going to be late due to an issue on the metro since starting me job last August and I have to use the metro 5 days a week.

Its not perfect and yes there are countless trains withdrawn from service which don't get reported but considering the units are over 30 years old, is this really too much of a surprise? Most delays on the Metro are not especially severe(compare to the mainline) and I just feel people need to head out earlier just in the event of any delays.

And there is one of the problems, Nexus want to try and have to many vanity projects. I'm surprised Nexus didn't start pushing for new trains, since the Autumn statement is supposedly going to include huge new infrastructure projects for the North East. Nexus could have used that as a way to pressure for new trains as well as potentially new routes.

I have to ask but which is your line, are you on the South Gosforth - Pelaw section or on one of the branches?

I travel roughly 5 days a week and I can guarantee at least 3 of those days will have some problem whether it be a door fault, train fault, or the train just generally running late because the train that was 3 minutes early was let go early.

But that's the problem, the trains are 30 years old and train failures will happen but why should the public have to put up with it? Don't get me wrong, without the Metro we'd all be lost - thankfully the local bus is more frequent than the Metro and operates longer hours than the Metro, but for some people the Metro is the only way they can get into town.

 

[markydh]

Frankly I doubt there are any more operational issues now than there have ever been. In the age of social media, they simply get reported more often and as they occur. And DB have a minimum service specification as part of their contract. If they don't meet that it is absolutely right that they are 'fined'. What other incentive is there for them to get it right? Though fined isn't really the right word. More like payments withheld or clawed back.

 

[ModernRailways]

Frankly I doubt there are any more operational issues now than there have ever been. In the age of social media, they simply get reported more often and as they occur. And DB have a minimum service specification as part of their contract. If they don't meet that it is absolutely right that they are 'fined'. What other incentive is there for them to get it right? Though fined isn't really the right word. More like payments withheld or clawed back.

Social Media definitely makes people more aware of problems, but I tend to ignore them. I'm just going from first hand experience when I speak about delays.

They do indeed have a minimum spec, but no TOC is going to be perfect and Nexus are fining DB for every little thing possible and in my view it can't be helping. DB have no money left because of the fines they've had, however, they have had less trains available for service with 4 (?) being down Doncaster as well as 2 (?) undergoing maintenance/exams. So that's at least 3 sets out of service, and during the peaks I believe around 40 sets are supposed to be out (80 metrocars).

Nexus / DB call them fines on internal documents.

 

[markydh]

They do but the reality is NEXUS simply deduct them from the regular payments owed to DB for operating the service. It's worth remembering that they knew what they were signing up for. By all means terminate the contract early if they don't feel they are capable of operating within the remit. A remit which does include units being unavailable due to refurbs and is part of the contract. They undercut the in house bid for the concession in order to win it. It's their fault if the reality is coming home to roost frankly.

 

[MetroCar4058]

It would have been nice to have Metro stay 'in house' but I don't think DB are doing too bad as I would say 87% OTP is reasonable and even if there is a train withdrawn from service you might wait 15 minutes at a maximum.

I've got a question about the OHLE on the metro, do we have different wire types in different places, I read in the RAIB report we have tram like OHLE between south gosforth and Longbenton but I was unsure if this has changed now with all of the works we've had

 

[Tramfan]

A few years ago you often had about 8 units out of service undergoing routine maintenance/exams meaning that with 78 out at peak time you'd have 4 units making 2 spare train sets.

Nowadays with 4 at Wabtec up to 2 undergoing commissioning, you only have 84 available to start with, meaning a maximum of 6 can be undergoing maintenance. Obviously if the maximum 6 are in maintenance, you have no spares meaning any train faults/failures at peak time mean a peak extra gets diverted to cover, leaving gaps in the service.

I have no doubt that there are definitely more faults these days, but equally I agree that social media highlights these a lot more. A bugbear of mine is when 1 train withdrawal is reported multiple times which makes it seem like more trains are breaking down, or that the delays are worse than they actually are.

 

[142094]

Current service specification is for 78 cars to be available for normal, weekday peak service. In the end the way the concession has been organised is very much beneficial to Nexus and not DB. In short, Nexus specify the service levels, own the rolling stock and track, but pay DB to both operate the service and maintain the trains. So as soon as service levels go down, payments to DB are withheld, which obviously will have an impact somewhere along the line, be it with maintenance or something else. Very clever of Nexus as they are undoubtedly saving money and have a perfect scapegoat to blame any issues on at the end of the concession. Not so good is the fact that patronage has been on the decrease over recent years, which hits Nexus in the farebox revenue.

In related news apparently Nexus have been shortlisted for an award on the ticketing system alongside Scheidt and Bachmann.
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I've got a question about the OHLE on the metro, do we have different wire types in different places, I read in the RAIB report we have tram like OHLE between south gosforth and Longbenton but I was unsure if this has changed now with all of the works we've had

There is a difference in structures on various areas of the system. In places, when the Metro was first constructed, redundant poles which were once used for the trolleybus system in Newcastle were reused. In these cases the wiring is quite simple compared to more normal OHL.

Sunderland North tunnel also has overhead rails compared to wires.

 

[tez thorn]

in regards to the incident,what will happen to 4090 now,im guessing it was pretty burnt,will the paintshop

guys try and put it right?

 

[MetroCar4058]

are these poles the ones that you see at stations?

 

[Scott M]

Seen a lot of trainee drivers out recently.

They always seem to be doing Regent Centre - Pelaw trains at off-peak times (seen them at 8pm twice in two days).

Also as someone who uses it a lot, the delays are getting pretty bad now. And it'll only get worse once autumn hits (leaves on line has caused severe delays the past two autumns cos of wheelslip).

I do think social media highlights it though - my dad said when he used to take it to work there'd always be delays.

Problem is most people will get the last possible metro that will get them on time for work, and therefore leave no possible time for delays to occur. So much complaining could be solved if people simply got the metro before that one.

 

[ModernRailways]

in regards to the incident,what will happen to 4090 now,im guessing it was pretty burnt,will the paintshop

guys try and put it right?

4090 has been well hidden in the depot, tucked right at the back and pretty much out of sight. Whatever happened will be interesting although I doubt there is much damage as we would have seen images and depending on the problem the refurbs may have been stopped / taken out of service pending an investigation.

Seen a lot of trainee drivers out recently.

They always seem to be doing Regent Centre - Pelaw trains at off-peak times (seen them at 8pm twice in two days).

It won't just be driver training, it will be drivers getting their tests done to check they are still capable of driving. Since managers can't ride in the cab they have to cordon off the front of the train - not great when people are getting left behind because of it though in the peaks!

Also as someone who uses it a lot, the delays are getting pretty bad now. And it'll only get worse once autumn hits (leaves on line has caused severe delays the past two autumns cos of wheelslip).

It has surprised me that Nexus haven't invested in some better infrastructure to cope with the leaves on the line. Who takes the blame for train delays because of wheelslip / leaves on the line? Do Nexus still fine DB or is it just forgotten about? Last year was rather denting for the service, we managed to drop to around 60% service level at one point, then it rose to 70% and since then it's been around 80-85% consistently.

I do think social media highlights it though - my dad said when he used to take it to work there'd always be delays.

I tend to ignore the social media posts. It just spews out what goes on the Nexus website so whenever the Nexus website is updated within a few minutes for whatever reason people go crazy, it also doesn't represent the true amount of problems. For example, the Facebook page said their were major delays, yet all my trains were bang on time.

Problem is most people will get the last possible metro that will get them on time for work, and therefore leave no possible time for delays to occur. So much complaining could be solved if people simply got the metro before that one.

I find it odd how people can do that! Some random guy waiting for the train started complaining about the delay and because the train was 10 minutes late he was going to be 5 minutes late for work. For me, I get the train prior to the one I need (or earlier) and then just take a longer walk to where I'm going, or go in early. People leaving it so they have 5 minutes to spare when trains are every 12 minutes are asking for trouble!

 

[Tramfan]

I saw 4090 being shunted at the depot last night and couldn't see any damage on it at all, though I did only see one side of it.

 

[tez thorn]

didnt wanna sound thick thats all,i know that when 4052 had its incident,it was burned pretty bad,but

lucky enough it was due for refurb,thats on google,yet again bad publicity for metro, the social media and

metro haters need to appreciate,its bloody 34 year old (just had its birthday last Thursday),faults will

occur,but they just blow it out of proportion,but think,the mid life refurbishment is now between 11-19

year old,it would only be so long till problems started happening,nexus and db are doing well,its not like

they sit on there arses when something happens,they do try to respond and get it resolved as quickly and

effectively as possible

 

[142094]

are these poles the ones that you see at stations?

Look for the round ones, those are the ex-trolley bus ones.

Seen a lot of trainee drivers out recently.

They always seem to be doing Regent Centre - Pelaw trains at off-peak times (seen them at 8pm twice in two days).

There are currently 8 new drivers, at the minute they are just about finishing their out of service driving hours which means having to use spare trains outside of the peak hours. In fact today I am sure I saw one set going around the Coast in service to Pelaw, so must have be able to get enough hours in to progress. In most cases the out of service hours means getting to know the various turnbacks and sidings for future reference.

 

[Scott M]

It won't just be driver training, it will be drivers getting their tests done to check they are still capable of driving. Since managers can't ride in the cab they have to cordon off the front of the train - not great when people are getting left behind because of it though in the peaks!

It has surprised me that Nexus haven't invested in some better infrastructure to cope with the leaves on the line. Who takes the blame for train delays because of wheelslip / leaves on the line? Do Nexus still fine DB or is it just forgotten about? Last year was rather denting for the service, we managed to drop to around 60% service level at one point, then it rose to 70% and since then it's been around 80-85% consistently.

I tend to ignore the social media posts. It just spews out what goes on the Nexus website so whenever the Nexus website is updated within a few minutes for whatever reason people go crazy, it also doesn't represent the true amount of problems. For example, the Facebook page said their were major delays, yet all my trains were bang on time.

I find it odd how people can do that! Some random guy waiting for the train started complaining about the delay and because the train was 10 minutes late he was going to be 5 minutes late for work. For me, I get the train prior to the one I need (or earlier) and then just take a longer walk to where I'm going, or go in early. People leaving it so they have 5 minutes to spare when trains are every 12 minutes are asking for trouble!

Yes I agree regarding the infrastructure. It has proved to be a big problem two years in a row now, and the leaves aren’t going to stop falling this year or the next, so surely something should be done. However I worry they are taking the attitude of ‘can’t afford to do anything about it, just one of those things.’ I suggested planting evergreens but that’s probably impractical somehow.

And yeah I agree the Facebook does seem a bit arbitrary at times. Some delays aren’t reported, and as you say sometimes seemingly non-existent delays are reported. Plus the usual midnight 'All trains are running according to timetable' post, which commonly attracts the comment 'The only time they are running to timetable as they have finished for the day!'

And I am not going to lie that ‘random guy’ was me last year – when you’re a student those extra 12 minutes in bed mean a lot! I learnt my lesson though and get the one prior to the one I need - like you do. If there are no delays it allows time to change at Pelaw to one of the empty peak services that start there (if I didn’t initially get a seat).

There are currently 8 new drivers, at the minute they are just about finishing their out of service driving hours which means having to use spare trains outside of the peak hours. In fact today I am sure I saw one set going around the Coast in service to Pelaw, so must have be able to get enough hours in to progress. In most cases the out of service hours means getting to know the various turnbacks and sidings for future reference.

That explains all of the not in service trains I have been witnessing lately! For some reason I always find it a bit eerie when they roll into the station with their lights off, like some sort of ghost train.

Seen one train which had the cordon thing, then three people including the driver ahead of it. Which I thought was a bit overkill, surely only one instructor is needed.

What stood out was that one of the instructors was a brunette who looked to be in her early 20s, which I was surprised at (quite young).

Also a bit off topic here, but does anybody know how the station boards know how far away a train is, and when to change their notice from a train being Due to 'This train is for South Shields'?

 

[valenta]

Also a bit off topic here, but does anybody know how the station boards know how far away a train is, and when to change their notice from a train being Due to 'This train is for South Shields'?

Might be completely wrong here, but I've always assumed that the train rolls over something on the track just before it reaches the station which triggers a message on the board of the station it's approaching and the subsequent stations along the line. This would explain why the gaps between changes on time (e.g. 5m to 4m) often vary significantly - because of he differing distances between the stations. I await my theory being blown out the water.

 

[ModernRailways]

And I am not going to lie that ‘random guy’ was me last year – when you’re a student those extra 12 minutes in bed mean a lot! I learnt my lesson though and get the one prior to the one I need - like you do. If there are no delays it allows time to change at Pelaw to one of the empty peak services that start there (if I didn’t initially get a seat).

There's the difference, you are/were a student, the guy who was ranting was at least late 30s and in a suit. He has surely had a good few experiences of late trains etc. but leaving it like he does - I still see him take the same train! - is completely ridiculous especially after likely being late multiple times!

During the peaks I do the same, heading into town I'll change at Pelaw to get the train that starts there and coming away from town I'll leave the train at Heworth as that's where most people leave, but loads pile on too.

Also a bit off topic here, but does anybody know how the station boards know how far away a train is, and when to change their notice from a train being Due to 'This train is for South Shields'?

I believe they use a GPS / WIFI signal which is how they can be sat at 9 minutes for around 3 minutes only to suddenly drop to 7 or 6 minutes. 142094 though will likely be able to tell you properly as IIRC he's made a post about it before.

 

[Scott M]

There's the difference, you are/were a student, the guy who was ranting was at least late 30s and in a suit. He has surely had a good few experiences of late trains etc. but leaving it like he does - I still see him take the same train! - is completely ridiculous especially after likely being late multiple times!

During the peaks I do the same, heading into town I'll change at Pelaw to get the train that starts there and coming away from town I'll leave the train at Heworth as that's where most people leave, but loads pile on too.



I believe they use a GPS / WIFI signal which is how they can be sat at 9 minutes for around 3 minutes only to suddenly drop to 7 or 6 minutes. 142094 though will likely be able to tell you properly as IIRC he's made a post about it before.

Haha yeah you would think by that age he would know better!

And I normally change at Pelaw on the way back too, but Heworth is a good call, think I will do that from now on.

And The GPS/WIFI thing seems the most plausible idea, because as you say it can suddenly drop from 6 minutes to 3 minutes, suggesting a temporary lack of signal. Whereas that wouldn't be possible if it was something on the tracks.

 

[ModernRailways]

And The GPS/WIFI thing seems the most plausible idea, because as you say it can suddenly drop from 6 minutes to 3 minutes, suggesting a temporary lack of signal. Whereas that wouldn't be possible if it was something on the tracks.

It's why when a train enters the tunnel it's a lot less accurate. For example, at Monument, it's 4 minutes when a train is at Jesmond, 3 minutes when it's left Jesmond, 2 minutes when the train is at Haymarket, and Due when the train leaves Haymarket.

Also, leaving at Heworth often gets you a better standing position if there aren't any seats, it's always been the best option for me! It's mostly just not following what the crowd does Also, if the first train is for Pelaw, then South Hylton, then Pelaw then South Shields, wait and get the second Pelaw train as it will be quieter