Tyndrum-Dawlish permitted routes

[caughtonatrain]

Hi everybody

I hope you can help. I'm trying to buy some tickets for a relative who (understandably) is totally baffled by the ticket (im)possibilities for a journey Tyndrum Stations - Dawlish and return. Nobody at Scotrail call centre has been able to help.

She wants to travel from Tyndrum to Dawlish during the day on a Wednesday, breaking for overnight stay at Sheffield and continue before 1200 next day. I presume this is no problem. She must return on a Sunday. There are no appropriate trains with the exception of the Caledonian Sleeper on Sunday night.

Question 1: is London a permitted route for Tyndrum-Dawlish (I am guessing it is not).

If it is not, the alternative would be travel from Perth-Dawlish and return. There seem to be lots of fares: some are Any Permitted others are +LONDON.

Question 2: is London a permitted route for Perth-Dawlish?
Question 3: If not, is a non-London route (e.g. via Sheffield) permitted on a +LONDON ticket?
Question 4: if not, are there any tickets short of buying loads of singles that will allow the completion of this journey (and allowing purchase of berth supplement for the Sleeper)?

I hope this makes some sort of sense and thanks in advance for any help. I thought I knew a bit about this, but it's baffling me. The NFM05 implies London is permitted with regard to Question 2 above because there's a restriction note saying : "If travelling via London St Pancras please also check restriction 7E & 9J" -- but I've no idea what these restriction codes mean.

Cheers
Ed

 

[b0b]

London is not a valid route for Tyndrum-Dawlish.

I do show that the following route is valid via Sheffield though:

route [Map MM, Map CE]
Map MM to Map CE via [Routing Point NOTTINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point YORK, Routing Point SHEFFIELD GROUP, Routing Point DERBY GROUP, Routing Point BARNSLEY, Routing Point LEEDS GROUP, Routing Point SCARBOROUGH GROUP, Routing Point PONTEFRACT GROUP, Routing Point SWINTON S YORKS, Routing Point DONCASTER, Routing Point WAKEFIELD GROUP, Routing Point CHESTERFIELD, Routing Point MEADOWHALL, Routing Point SELBY]


So it looks like you can do the trip

via Glasgow, Carlisle, Hellafield, Leeds, Sheffield, (this is the only valid route to Sheffield)
then Sheffield to Dawlish via Derby, Birmingham, Chelttenham Spa, Bristol and Taunton.

Note my data was from 2009 maps so you might want to double check


For sure, Sheffield would be valid via St Pancras on a +LONDON ticket

Perth-Dawlish IS valid via London and would allow travel to St Pancras. Do you want me to check the valid routes to Sheffield on a Perth-Dawlish ticket, it looks like there would be a lot more options.

For question 3: yes; but see the answer to question 4 below

For question 4: You could excess the return portion to +LONDON

 

[caughtonatrain]

Thanks very much for this - very helpful.

So, can I clarify:

For the following journey, which (if any) of the following tickets would be valid?

Perth-Dawlish, Route: Any Permitted, SVR at £162.30, or
Perth-Dawlish, Route: +LONDON, SSR at £183.30

OUT 08/06/10 (Wednesday)
Dep Perth 1358 (Scotrail)
Arr Edinburgh 1519
Dep Edinburgh 1608 (XC)
Arr Sheffield 1951
Dep Sheffield 1054 next day (XC)
Arr Exeter St Davids 1443
Dep Exeter St Davids 1456 (FGW)
Arr Dawlish 1443

RTN 13/06/10 (Sunday)
Dep Dawlish 1529 (FGW)
Arr Exeter St Davids 1553
Dep Exeter St Davids 1602 (FGW)
Arr London Paddington 1829
Dep London Euston 2007 (Scotrail Caledonian Sleeper, + payment of Solo Supplement £54)
Arr Perth 0539



I am sorry if this is a bit confusing, but the request is far from academic and relates to an essential journey that cannot be completed by any other means. Online journey planners are not showing up anything remotely useful, neither are call centres. I am buying the ticket for somebody else who understands even less about the ticketing system than I do...

Many thanks

 

[Donny Dave]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

London is not a valid route for Tyndrum-Dawlish.

I do show that the following route is valid via Sheffield though:

route [Map MM, Map CE]
Map MM to Map CE via [Routing Point NOTTINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point YORK, Routing Point SHEFFIELD GROUP, Routing Point DERBY GROUP, Routing Point BARNSLEY, Routing Point LEEDS GROUP, Routing Point SCARBOROUGH GROUP, Routing Point PONTEFRACT GROUP, Routing Point SWINTON S YORKS, Routing Point DONCASTER, Routing Point WAKEFIELD GROUP, Routing Point CHESTERFIELD, Routing Point MEADOWHALL, Routing Point SELBY]


So it looks like you can do the trip

via Glasgow, Carlisle, Hellafield, Leeds, Sheffield, (this is the only valid route to Sheffield)

It is valid via Sheffield without having to go "round the houses".. I tried looking at the ticket on the East Coast website specifying via Sheffield, but that brought up no results. I then changed it to via Newcastle, and it then showed several journeys that the site considers valid. However, no matter what I tried, I can't get the website to show the ticket via London.

 

[b0b]

From what I can tell Perth-Dawlish is valid via London and is valid on the Sleeper (with supplement), so the Perth-Dawlish, Route: Any Permitted, SVR at £162.30 should be fine.

The only ticket restriction for that ticket is no travel on trains scheduled to depart before 0500 Mon-Fri. (although there are extra restrictions via St Pancras but not your journey doesn't propose that)

Give me more time, I'm having trouble confirming the Edinburgh-Sheffied-Exeter part is valid without a trip via London

ok, you can do Perth to Dawlish on maps ER+CE, which allows Perth to Edinburgh to either York or Doncaster to Sheffield to Exeter.

 

[clagmonster]

Permitted routes are determined using the National Routeing Guide, published at: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

For Tyndrum-Dawlish.
Tyndrum Lower is a related station to the Glasgow group. Strangely Tyndrum Upper doesn't appear in the list on the routeing point identifier.
Dawlish is a related station to the Exeter and Plymouth Groups.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

To determine which of Exeter and Plymouth is appropriate, we need to compare fares.
Tyndrum Stations-Dawlish
SVH: £87.30
SOS: £152.50

Tyndrum Stations-Exeter St Davids
SVH: £87.30
SOS: £152.50
Both are the same as the Dawlish fare, so Exeter Group is an appropriate routeing point.

Tyndrum Stations-Plymouth
SOS: £183.50
This is more than the Dawlish fare, so Plymouth group is not an appropriate routeing point.

Routeing permissions for Glasgow Group-Exeter Group are: BD+CG BD+ZZ BD+ZZ+FK BS+CE BS+CE+SW BS+MW+SW
BS+MW+WE BS+MW+WR CE+BS+ZZ CE+BS+ZZ+FK CE+ER CG+MW+SW
CG+MW+WE CG+MW+WR ER+CE+SW FK+ZZ+BS+CE+SW SW+CE+BS+ZZ

As far as I can see, none of these map combinations allow travel via London, but as there are so many I might have missed it.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf


http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

 

[b0b]

London is not a valid route for Tyndrum-Dawlish.

I do show that the following route is valid via Sheffield though:

route [Map MM, Map CE]
Map MM to Map CE via [Routing Point NOTTINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point YORK, Routing Point SHEFFIELD GROUP, Routing Point DERBY GROUP, Routing Point BARNSLEY, Routing Point LEEDS GROUP, Routing Point SCARBOROUGH GROUP, Routing Point PONTEFRACT GROUP, Routing Point SWINTON S YORKS, Routing Point DONCASTER, Routing Point WAKEFIELD GROUP, Routing Point CHESTERFIELD, Routing Point MEADOWHALL, Routing Point SELBY]

EDIT .... I updated to the latest permitted routes and this is NO LONGER a permitted route.

However route route [Map ER, Map CE, Map SW] is now valid that now allows Tyndrum - Glasgow - Edinburgh - York/Doncaster then via Sheffield to Exeter

 

[tony_mac]

This is a tricky one - advance singles is probably the best way to go.

All I can find is, Tyndrum to Yeovil Junction is +Any Permitted , so valid via London, and according to NRES via Bristol and Taunton as well.

Then Castle Cary to Dawlish would be valid via Taunton going out, then either to Taunton or Castle Cary on the route to London (and the ticket from Yeovil the rest of the way).

This is £148.30 + £20.30.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
or Tyndrum to Pinhoe - also +Any Permitted, off-peak return for £152, and valid via Exeter. (It should probably fail the fares check rule, but NRES says to go this way).

Exeter to Dawlish isn't very expensive.

 

[A60K]

I can't open the PDF on my phone, but is it under Upper Tyndrum? The station was renamed about 15 years ago to avoid possible confusion on RETB.

 

[caughtonatrain]

Thanks to everybody for their helpful replies. Sorry it's taken me a while to get back on the site.


b0b: thanks for the info. on the Sheffield route [Map ER, Map CE, Map SW].

tony_mac: that is genius. My next challenge will be explaining this to my relative! (a crib sheet with which ticket to use between which stations..)

Journey is in a couple of weeks so I'll report back anything if there's anything worth reporting.

Thanks again.