Two Together Railcard - If one person gets delayed

[johntea]

On Sunday I have a 10:05 train booked to London with my girlfriend from Leeds

To get to Leeds I need to catch the 09:29 from Castleford

Hopefully everything will go to plan but what if the 09:29 train gets delayed and I miss the 10:05?

Usually not an issue as I expect I would then be entitled to catch the next service myself but the railcard complicates matters slightly as it is only valid if both travellers are present I believe!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically? You both buy new tickets. No way will you find a ticket office to excess away the discount in time for that.

There doesn't seem to be an earlier train from Castleford on a Sunday morning. Can you stay over with her?

 

[Romilly]

There have been threads on this issue in the past. From what the OP says, I am guessing that the Leeds-London tickets are Advances. The OP should still be entitled to travel on a later Leeds-London train. As for the OP's girlfriend, one option is that the guard on that later Leeds-London will allow her to travel on that later train with her existing ticket. Another option is that she buys a discounted walk-up ticket for that later Leeds-London train, but that would depend on the Leeds ticket office being able to sell just one ticket with a Two Together discount.

Ultimately, the terms and conditions of the Two Together railcard, and those of Groupsave tickets, needed to be revised to deal with the OP's hypothetical situation and also with the real-life situation where one of the travellers is ill on the day and cannot travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately, the terms and conditions of the Two Together railcard, and those of Groupsave tickets, needed to be revised to deal with the OP's hypothetical situation and also with the real-life situation where one of the travellers is ill on the day and cannot travel.

The Railcard itself is designed for two people who will be travelling together. If they might not it's not really applicable.

I do agree with the latter, though - excessing away a Railcard discount needs to be possible as a matter of course provided it is done before boarding. There are all manner of reasons why one might want to do that, and it's highly passenger unfriendly not to do it.

 

[Flandrian]

Would the situation be changed if the girlfriend also purchased a Castleford to Leeds ticket for use on the 09.29 service ? Could that create a situation whereby both could be entitled to travel on a later London service if the Castleford train is delayed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the situation be changed if the girlfriend also purchased a Castleford to Leeds ticket for use on the 09.29 service ? Could that create a situation whereby both could be entitled to travel on a later London service if the Castleford train is delayed?

It would certainly appear to create a (slightly iffy) workaround whereby the girlfriend could claim to have been on the Castleford train even if she in fact wasn't. Though that said, they would then ask why they weren't Two Together tickets so maybe not...

The best option is without doubt for the OP to stay the night in Leeds if that is at all an option.

 

[sheff1]

Can you confirm that you are travelling alone from Castleford to Leeds on a ticket which does not require a Two Together Railcard and then the two of you have booked Advances from Leeds to London with the Railcard.

If so, is the ticket from Castleford a single/return or a season of some sort ?

 

[johntea]

Apologies I typed my initial message just as I was leaving work in a bit of a rush!

The Leeds to London are advances, she would be travelling from Garforth to Leeds which does raise an interesting point in that I don't know if she booked Garforth to London or Leeds to London and was intending to just purchase a Garforth to Leeds on the day, I'm covered as I have a West Yorkshire annual season ticket either way

It was more a hypothetical thought than anything, as she has offered to pick me up (by car) and we'll both travel on the 08:46 from Garforth (I pointed out the 09:41 but half her family are also on the trip who want a coffee/don't want to rush etc!)

I believe the bus runs earlier than the train on a Sunday from Castleford to Leeds so that may be the best option if nothing else to save her a trip!

 

[Pumperkin]

The Railcard itself is designed for two people who will be travelling together. If they might not it's not really applicable.

So if this is the case, then advance fares with 2T railcards shouldn't be bought, as there is always the element of "might not".

 

[yorkie]

I think if you each bought tickets from your respective stations (Garforth/Castleford) to Leeds and then a 2Together from there, and bought them in one transaction, that is good evidence of one contract for each customer to be conveyed from their respective origins through to London. A

lthough it's arguably a matter between customer and the relevant TOC(s), a good retailer might be prepared and able to back the customer up in the event of a dispute (I am aware of instances where this has happened), so choose the retailer with this in mind. It could be bought online, or perhaps at a station whose ticket office staff agree that it is a valid set of journeys and who are prepared to issue paper itineraries to accompany the combination of tickets.

However if one or more of the ticket holders has a Season ticket/product such as a Metro Card, then it is harder to demonstrate this contractual entitlement. However I do not believe the principle to be any different, and you should still both be conveyed, in my opinion. However the chances of an argument are greater.

I strongly disagree with @Bletchleyite's position in this thread.

As for 'excessing away' a discount at a ticket office, I do not believe the customers should be required to do this against their will due to a delay to one of the passengers, but if they choose to do it, a decent TOC will do it, e.g. LNER will do it (do LNER still have a travel centre at Leeds?). Unfortunately many TOCs have a poor policy in this area and won't do it, which says a lot about how bad those TOCs are, so the chances of success depends on how reasonable/sensible the TOC operating the ticket office chooses to be!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if this is the case, then advance fares with 2T railcards shouldn't be bought, as there is always the element of "might not".

If both parties make the same journey from the same origin, the chance of "might not" is rather lower. That is the market at which the Railcard is aimed.

 

[Haywain]

In circumstances as outlined I would recommend that the person who is at the departure station on time (ie not delayed en route) approaches staff as soon as a delay becomes obvious to get advice on what they should do. They will, I would expect, either allow both passengers to travel separately or allow both to travel on a later service. Much may depend on which customer holds the tickets and railcard. The idea that either (or both) customer should pay extra when one has been delayed on a connecting journey is ridiculous.

 

[Pumperkin]

If both parties make the same journey from the same origin, the chance of "might not" is rather lower. That is the market at which the Railcard is aimed.

Lower, but not unheard of. Advance fares (should be) available from 12 weeks out. 12 weeks is a long time - anything might happen in the meantime to mean one person isn't travelling. I feel in this case one person should be allowed to travel alone, as long as they hold both tickets thereby meaning the other can't travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lower, but not unheard of. Advance fares (should be) available from 12 weeks out. 12 weeks is a long time - anything might happen in the meantime to mean one person isn't travelling. I feel in this case one person should be allowed to travel alone, as long as they hold both tickets thereby meaning the other can't travel.

I would agree that with a Two Together, if someone holds both tickets and the Railcard they should be able to travel. This doesn't really fit the OP's situation, though.

 

[yorkie]

In circumstances as outlined I would recommend that the person who is at the departure station on time (ie not delayed en route) approaches staff as soon as a delay becomes obvious to get advice on what they should do. They will, I would expect, either allow both passengers to travel separately or allow both to travel on a later service. Much may depend on which customer holds the tickets and railcard. The idea that either (or both) customer should pay extra when one has been delayed on a connecting journey is ridiculous.

Yes, agreed, 100%.

 

[jfollows]

I would agree that with a Two Together, if someone holds both tickets and the Railcard they should be able to travel. This doesn't really fit the OP's situation, though.

Yes, and I agree also, but it appears that this is not the case today. I'd like to be convinced otherwise, so please do if any of you can!

If two of us travel for a day out in Manchester from Wilmslow but we don't plan on returning together, we buy full fare tickets at the start. If we use our railcard with the intention of returning together, but our plans change, we buy additional single tickets for our return journeys. We do this because this is the way things work, although I'd be very happy to be convinced otherwise - only having to buy one return ticket, for example, would be a helpful saving when we don't return together. Currently the additional cost we incur is because the saving isn't worth the risk of a fraudulent travel prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, agreed, 100%.

The primary difficulty in the OP's case, hence my suggestion that they should consider staying overnight, is that there are only 15 minutes in which to arrange this, which in my experience of trying to get anything vaguely "awkward" (regardless of whether it should be or not, it will be) done in a short period of time would make that impossible.

It should be easy, but in a practical sense it is not, and it's all very well shouting about what should be the case but it won't get you past a ticket barrier or stop an RPI writing out a PF or worse.

However, with more time it should be feasible (e.g. if there was a train an hour earlier from the OP's origin) - the trouble is that there is no entitlement to this in writing (the Railcard being intended for two people making the exact same journey together) and so it's going to come down to staff discretion which can vary wildly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and I agree also, but it appears that this is not the case today. I'd like to be convinced otherwise, so please do if any of you can!

For clarity it is indeed not the case - I just think it logically should be. According to the rules as they stand, if one person needs to travel alone for reasons not caused by the railway, their choice is:
1. Find a ticket office which will excess away the Railcard discount prior to boarding. Most however will not.
2. Buy a new ticket, refunding the existing ones against a £10 fee per ticket if they are refundable. Obviously you cannot do this if you have already made the outward journey.

 

[Haywain]

there are only 15 minutes in which to arrange this

The OP travelling from Castleford will have much more than 15 minutes if the 09:29 is sufficiently delayed or cancelled. The OP's girlfriend is not arriving by train so it is reasonable to assume (particularly in the light of later comments) that he'she will potentially have rather more than 15 minutes.

in my experience of trying to get anything vaguely "awkward"

I don't regard this as particularly unusual, and I doubt that LNER staff at Leeds would (either those in the 'Customer Zone' or those at the LNER information point adjacent to the ticket barriers).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Obviously you cannot do this if you have already made the outward journey.

You can get a refund on a (refundable) return ticket, if you've already made the outward journey. It's just that, since all you get refunded is the amount you paid less the cost of the equivalent single, less the admin fee, this is often nothing at all. Obviously not the case for Anytime Returns.