Two old Delay Repay cases

[Fermiboson]

These two cases have passed far, far over the deadline for any plausible delay repay, so there is no monetary value in asking about it. But it was in the days before I figured out that you could actually ask other people about things you don't know, and I would like to find out whether I was right.

Case 1.
Booked ticket: Off-peak return Oxford <> W'field Westgate/Kirkgate
Planned services:
0939 XC Oxford to Birmingham New St (1051)
1103 XC Birmingham New St to Sheffield (1221)
1231 Northern Sheffield to W'field Westgate (1324)

Right on departure, the 0939 was delayed to 0950. By the time it arrived at Birmingham, it had been delayed by something like 20 minutes, and I had missed the 1103. The next direct to Sheffield was 1203, so I hopped on the 1149 XC for Nottingham, hopping off at Derby 1229. The train to Sheffield came an hour later, as scheduled, and I arrived at Sheffield around 1317, just in time to witness the Northern to Kirkgate pull out of the platform. So I sat and waited for the service to Westgate, arriving 1424 for a delay of exactly 1 hour to my journey.

When I attempted to claim with XC, I pointed at the Delay Repay provision that a delay of 60 minutes or more meant a full ticket refund. XC however took the position that their train was delayed by only 20 minutes, which did not hit the TOC's 30 minute mark, and hence I was due zero pounds. Now that I've checked back on Article 16 of the PRO, it does say that the delay in the arrival at the final destination of more than 60 minutes, which appeared to be satisfied here. Should I have lodged an appeal?

Case 2
Booked ticket: Advance Single Retford > London King's Cross
Advance Single London Marylebone > Oxford
Planned service:
2022 Hull Trains Retford > London King's Cross (2140)
2212 Chiltern London Marylebone > Oxford

Just before departure, I found out that the 2022 was cancelled due to major disruptions on the ECML on that day. I went to the station anyway, only to be told to go back as a "do not travel" notice had been issued. As I absolutely had to get back, I asked for alternative options, and was finally told that the next LNER service which is timetabled to pass at 2137 would call at Newark to Retford to pick up stranded passengers at 214x.

This turned out to be fantasy as well, as the delay minutes on the board started creeping up and up. Sometime after 10pm (I was half asleep at this point, having spent more than two hours on the windswept Retford platform 1 on a very cold night), the train finally arrived, and rolled leisurely into King's Cross at 0020, nearly 90 minutes later than the amended schedule. The tube had shut down at this point so LNER threw us on taxis that went off in various directions.

Of course, I lodged a delay repay claim for both the advance single from Retford and the Chiltern advance single (as a missed connection due to NR disruptions). I first contacted Hull Trains, since I was booked on their service. They said to contact LNER, since I ended up on their service, and if their service was not delayed, I still could have caught a later Chiltern train. LNER responded that the ticket was Hull's, not theirs. In the end nobody got paid anything for anything. Who was in the right, and what should I have done?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In case 1 XC should have paid the 60 minute delay.

In case 2 it's less clear cut as there's a gap in your ticket between the two London termini, so I can see that might be seen as two journeys. However certainly Hull would be liable for the first ticket for a 90 minute delay as their cancellation delayed you.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there's any time limit on an appeal? If a statutory time limit applied to the claim, then that may of course render the money unrecoverable in that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2024 ==

In case 1 XC should have paid the 60 minute delay.

Indeed. I don't think there can really be a doubt there.

 

[zero]

Case 1: XC is liable and should have paid 50% of the price of the return (not 100%) for a 60 minute delay. I haven't had any problems with XC rejecting any of my similar claims

Case 2: Valid connection to Marylebone (>28 minutes) so Hull Trains should have refunded in full.

 

[Fermiboson]

I don't think there's any time limit on an appeal? If a statutory time limit applied to the claim, then that may of course render the money unrecoverable in that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2024 ==


Indeed. I don't think there can really be a doubt there.

At the time, I didn't appeal, and it has been more than 28 days so I assume that ship has sailed.

Should also clarify: For case 2, I filed Delay Repay claims for both the Hull and Chiltern advance, and neither delay repay was successful for the above reasons.

 

[AnyFile]

For the case 2, did you fill two separate claim for the two legs of the journey?

 

[Fermiboson]

For the case 2, did you fill two separate claim for the two legs of the journey?

I think I did, but both initially to Hull, then after being told to go to LNER, both to LNER.

 

[Watershed]

For case 1, I'm just a bit confused as to why you intended to make an unnecessary change at Sheffield? The 11:03 from Birmingham would have been scheduled to call at Wakefield Westgate at 12:46, quite a bit earlier than your planned arrival time of 13:24. Having missed your connection in Birmingham and Sheffield, I think XC would be entitled to calculate Delay Repay based on the earliest you could have arrived at Wakefield Westgate if you'd taken the next direct XC service. You haven't said the date that this occurred, but it would likely have been on the order of a 30 minute delay, I'd have thought.

XC are therefore wrong to have rejected your claim, but they probably would be entitled to pay Delay Repay at the 30-59 minute 'band' (i.e. 25% in the case of a return ticket) rather than the 60-119 minute one. The only applicable time limit to appealing a Delay Repay claim is the civil statute of limitations (6 years in England & Wales), in case you wanted to take the matter to Court. Whilst some TOCs may close claims in their system after a time, or purport to impose arbitrary appeal deadlines, neither action is of any contractual effect as there is no stated appeal time limit in the NRCoT or any Passenger's Charter. You merely need to submit the initial Delay Repay claim within 28 days.

As to the PRO, whilst its compensation provisions would apply in the event of a 60+ minute delay (which as above, I'm not certain arose in this case), they are much less generous than the compensation arrangements set out in the NRCoT or indeed Passenger's Charters. The only time limit for a PRO claim would, however, be the civil statute of limitations - there is no legal requirement to submit an application within any particular timeframe.

For case 2, you are also entitled to compensation - but again to less than you have said. The first problem is that you allowed only 32 minutes to change from a train arriving at Kings Cross (KGX) to one departing Marylebone (MYB), whereas the minimum connection time at that time of the evening is 52 minutes (15 minutes at KGX, 28 minutes for the Tube, and 10 minutes at MYB). Since your ticket for the MYB-Oxford (OXF) section of the journey was an Advance, you couldn't rely on the existence of the 00:01 MYB-OXF to make this a valid connection.

The second problem is that - arguably - you did not hold National Rail tickets which covered your entire journey, since you presumably used contactless or Oyster PAYG for the Tube (or bus). PAYG doesn't fall under the NRCoT when used to pay for journeys on the Tube, buses and trams. Equally, the argument could go that you could just as well have made your own way - e.g. walking or cycling - between the London termini; this is a recognised option in the industry data during the night when the Tube doesn't run. But given the first problem identified above, this is a moot point either way. In future it may however be a good idea to buy one of your tickets such that they're issued to/from the appropriate London Underground Zone(s), since this means that there can be no such ambiguity. Whilst there is generally a small supplement to doing this vs paying using PAYG, it's probably worth paying.

However, coming back to the problems you actually encountered when claiming Delay Repay, Hull Trains were wrong to direct you to LNER. You were planning to travel on one of their services; this was cancelled which caused you to be delayed, therefore they are the operator liable to pay Delay Repay. LNER were correct to reject your claim but they should have explained that Hull Trains were liable and passed the case back to them. Having submitted a Delay Repay claim in time, you can still appeal this and pursue Hull Trains for the compensation payable. If you never actually submitted a Delay Repay claim to Hull Trains because of their incorrect advice, this is immaterial - condition 32.1 of the NRCoT refers:

Your claim can be made to any Train Company whose services you used to make your journey, who will, if necessary, forward your claim to the Train Company responsible.

 

[Starmill]

At the time, I didn't appeal, and it has been more than 28 days so I assume that ship has sailed.

I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't be appealing now, however, I don't see how a time limit can apply for subsequent correspondence or appeals. There's a time limit of course on the initial claim for a refund or compensation, but you complied with that it sounds like?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2024 ==

For case 1, I'm just a bit confused as to why you intended to make an unnecessary change at Sheffield? The 11:03 from Birmingham would have been scheduled to call at Wakefield Westgate at 12:46, quite a bit earlier than your planned arrival time of 13:24. Having missed your connection in Birmingham and Sheffield, I think XC would be entitled to calculate Delay Repay based on the earliest you could have arrived at Wakefield Westgate if you'd taken the next direct XC service. You haven't said the date that this occurred, but it would likely have been on the order of a 30 minute delay, I'd have thought.

Is it possible that the trains were diverted not to serve Wakefield Westgate and Leeds the day in question?

 

[Fermiboson]

For case 1, I'm just a bit confused as to why you intended to make an unnecessary change at Sheffield? The 11:03 from Birmingham would have been scheduled to call at Wakefield Westgate at 12:46, quite a bit earlier than your planned arrival time of 13:24. Having missed your connection in Birmingham and Sheffield, I think XC would be entitled to calculate Delay Repay based on the earliest you could have arrived at Wakefield Westgate if you'd taken the next direct XC service. You haven't said the date that this occurred, but it would likely have been on the order of a 30 minute delay, I'd have thought.

XC are therefore wrong to have rejected your claim, but they probably would be entitled to pay Delay Repay at the 30-59 minute 'band' (i.e. 25% in the case of a return ticket) rather than the 60-119 minute one. The only applicable time limit to appealing a Delay Repay claim is the civil statute of limitations (6 years in England & Wales), in case you wanted to take the matter to Court. Whilst some TOCs may close claims in their system after a time, or purport to impose arbitrary appeal deadlines, neither action is of any contractual effect as there is no stated appeal time limit in the NRCoT or any Passenger's Charter. You merely need to submit the initial Delay Repay claim within 28 days.

As to the PRO, whilst its compensation provisions would apply in the event of a 60+ minute delay (which as above, I'm not certain arose in this case), they are much less generous than the compensation arrangements set out in the NRCoT or indeed Passenger's Charters. The only time limit for a PRO claim would, however, be the civil statute of limitations - there is no legal requirement to submit an application within any particular timeframe.

For case 2, you are also entitled to compensation - but again to less than you have said. The first problem is that you allowed only 32 minutes to change from a train arriving at Kings Cross (KGX) to one departing Marylebone (MYB), whereas the minimum connection time at that time of the evening is 52 minutes (15 minutes at KGX, 28 minutes for the Tube, and 10 minutes at MYB). Since your ticket for the MYB-Oxford (OXF) section of the journey was an Advance, you couldn't rely on the existence of the 00:01 MYB-OXF to make this a valid connection.

The second problem is that - arguably - you did not hold National Rail tickets which covered your entire journey, since you presumably used contactless or Oyster PAYG for the Tube (or bus). PAYG doesn't fall under the NRCoT when used to pay for journeys on the Tube, buses and trams. Equally, the argument could go that you could just as well have made your own way - e.g. walking or cycling - between the London termini; this is a recognised option in the industry data during the night when the Tube doesn't run. But given the first problem identified above, this is a moot point either way. In future it may however be a good idea to buy one of your tickets such that they're issued to/from the appropriate London Underground Zone(s), since this means that there can be no such ambiguity. Whilst there is generally a small supplement to doing this vs paying using PAYG, it's probably worth paying.

However, coming back to the problems you actually encountered when claiming Delay Repay, Hull Trains were wrong to direct you to LNER. You were planning to travel on one of their services; this was cancelled which caused you to be delayed, therefore they are the operator liable to pay Delay Repay. LNER were correct to reject your claim but they should have explained that Hull Trains were liable and passed the case back to them. Having submitted a Delay Repay claim in time, you can still appeal this and pursue Hull Trains for the compensation payable. If you never actually submitted a Delay Repay claim to Hull Trains because of their incorrect advice, this is immaterial - condition 32.1 of the NRCoT refers:

For case 1, I don't remember the cause, but Trainline did not show the direct train. Possibly some changes were made in the regular timetable before 10 Dec, or some special thing happened that day. Thank you for the information about the statue of limitations. On my way back, I do recall seeing multiple XC trains southbound delayed by nearly two hours, so perhaps planned engineering work or some form of disruption was taking place. If anyone remembers the southbound XC service to Plymouth calling 1800 at Doncaster being delayed by 117 minutes, that'll be the day.

For case 2, thank you for the advice and I will take that into account in future planning. 32.1 is interesting. The advance is cheap enough that I'm not that bothered to spend that much effort chasing after something that happened months ago, but there was a separate (third) incident a long, long while back where I accidentally submitted a delay repay claim to GWR (among other irrelevant TOCs, not really knowing how everything worked back then), who sent me an email saying they had redirected me to XC. In this case, I was clear-cut entitled to compensation (the train had been delayed more than 30 mins), but I have never heard back from XC. Is it worth it to send them an email to find out what happened?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2024 ==

For case 1, I don't remember the cause, but Trainline did not show the direct train. Possibly some changes were made in the regular timetable before 10 Dec, or some special thing happened that day. Thank you for the information about the statue of limitations. On my way back, I do recall seeing multiple XC trains southbound delayed by nearly two hours, so perhaps planned engineering work or some form of disruption was taking place. If anyone remembers the southbound XC service to Plymouth calling 1800 at Doncaster being delayed by 117 minutes, that'll be the day.

For case 2, thank you for the advice and I will take that into account in future planning. 32.1 is interesting. The advance is cheap enough that I'm not that bothered to spend that much effort chasing after something that happened months ago, but there was a separate (third) incident a long, long while back where I accidentally submitted a delay repay claim to GWR (among other irrelevant TOCs, not really knowing how everything worked back then), who sent me an email saying they had redirected me to XC. In this case, I was clear-cut entitled to compensation (the train had been delayed more than 30 mins), but I have never heard back from XC. Is it worth it to send them an email to find out what happened?

Checking back on old messges, case 1 occurred on 29-10-2023. Looking at the old May - Dec timetable, the Wakefield call at 1247 is timetabled. It may be that Trainline displayed the combination with the cheapest advances, and while I did not get the advance, I may have been blindly following the shown itinerary.

I'm very confused now. Trainsplit and the forum ticket site both seem to refuse to show the XC direct, even now, even if I choose the "fastest" option. But that is not about delay repay, and maybe should be split into a different thread.

 

[Watershed]

For case 1, I don't remember the cause, but Trainline did not show the direct train. Possibly some changes were made in the regular timetable before 10 Dec, or some special thing happened that day. Thank you for the information about the statue of limitations. On my way back, I do recall seeing multiple XC trains southbound delayed by nearly two hours, so perhaps planned engineering work or some form of disruption was taking place. If anyone remembers the southbound XC service to Plymouth calling 1800 at Doncaster being delayed by 117 minutes, that'll be the day.

If the direct train wasn't calling at Wakefield then changing at Sheffield was probably the fastest option, in which case you may well be entitled to the 60-119 minute band of Delay Repay and should appeal accordingly.

For case 2, thank you for the advice and I will take that into account in future planning. 32.1 is interesting. The advance is cheap enough that I'm not that bothered to spend that much effort chasing after something that happened months ago, but there was a separate (third) incident a long, long while back where I accidentally submitted a delay repay claim to GWR (among other irrelevant TOCs, not really knowing how everything worked back then), who sent me an email saying they had redirected me to XC. In this case, I was clear-cut entitled to compensation (the train had been delayed more than 30 mins), but I have never heard back from XC. Is it worth it to send them an email to find out what happened?

No problem. You can use the incredibly useful site BR Times to see minimum connection times for each station, as well as the times for "fixed links" between stations (which as per my earlier post, sometimes vary in duration and mode based on the time of day or day of the week - particularly between London termini).

It would absolutely be worth following up with XC on the third case. Perhaps GWR never forwarded the case, but as per NRCoT 32.1, having submitted a claim to one of the companies you used within 28 days, you are in time even if something got lost in the communication between GWR and XC.

Checking back on old messges, case 1 occurred on 29-10-2023. Looking at the old May - Dec timetable, the Wakefield call at 1247 is timetabled. It may be that Trainline displayed the combination with the cheapest advances, and while I did not get the advance, I may have been blindly following the shown itinerary.

I'm very confused now. Trainsplit and the forum ticket site both seem to refuse to show the XC direct, even now, even if I choose the "fastest" option. But that is not about delay repay, and maybe should be split into a different thread.

It looks like there are engineering works resulting in diversions via Doncaster (avoiding Wakefield and Leeds) on many weekends.

 

[Fermiboson]

I’ve gotten back the paper tickets from the day for Case 2, and it turns out I booked for the 2310 Marylebone to Oxford, not the 2212. Does this change anything?

 

[Watershed]

I’ve gotten back the paper tickets from the day for Case 2, and it turns out I booked for the 2310 Marylebone to Oxford, not the 2212. Does this change anything?

That makes more sense (32 minutes is on the "sporty" side regardless of the actual MCT) and it means you did at least meet the MCT. The ambiguity about whether it's one journey or two under the NRCoT remains. Unless your Oxford Advance was particularly expensive I don't think it's an argument worth having in all honesty.

 

[Fermiboson]

To update this, XC have agreed and paid back the full delay repay due some time ago for case 1.

With regards to case 2, while I haven't lodged a formal appeal (or, indeed, a claim apparently; my HT delay repay account does not show the claim history), there does appear to be some complication. The Hull Trains service was p-coded late the night before travel, I believe, but was then reinstated in the afternoon to run short from Hull to Doncaster. HT and LNER had both issued do not travel notices before midnight, but my tickets were purchased far before this point. If I had made the claim, would this have affected my delay repay rights?

 

[Watershed]

To update this, XC have agreed and paid back the full delay repay due some time ago for case 1.

Great news

With regards to case 2, while I haven't lodged a formal appeal (or, indeed, a claim apparently; my HT delay repay account does not show the claim history), there does appear to be some complication. The Hull Trains service was p-coded late the night before travel, I believe, but was then reinstated in the afternoon to run short from Hull to Doncaster. HT and LNER had both issued do not travel notices before midnight, but my tickets were purchased far before this point. If I had made the claim, would this have affected my delay repay rights?

Most train companies claim that they can limit Delay Repay based on the timetable in place at 10pm the night before (i.e. the "Published Timetable of the Day" - which of course is not published in any meaningful sense of the word!). But seeing as you had an Advance ticket, what other train could they suggest Delay Repay is based on? Nothing at all? The previous or next Hull Trains service, possibly hours earlier or later? Clearly it is a nonsensical argument and we have discussed, at length, the reasons why this purported exclusion is unlikely to be binding under consumer and contract law.

Given that you did submit a claim in time if I'm not mistaken, I would pursue this one to make sure you get your full entitlement in compensation. The "Do Not Travel" advice is neither here nor there; it is just advice and doesn't change your contractual rights, in particular those to Delay Repay.

 

[Fermiboson]

Great news


Most train companies claim that they can limit Delay Repay based on the timetable in place at 10pm the night before (i.e. the "Published Timetable of the Day" - which of course is not published in any meaningful sense of the word!). But seeing as you had an Advance ticket, what other train could they suggest Delay Repay is based on? Nothing at all? The previous or next Hull Trains service, possibly hours earlier or later? Clearly it is a nonsensical argument and we have discussed, at length, the reasons why this purported exclusion is unlikely to be binding under consumer and contract law.

Given that you did submit a claim in time if I'm not mistaken, I would pursue this one to make sure you get your full entitlement in compensation. The "Do Not Travel" advice is neither here nor there; it is just advice and doesn't change your contractual rights, in particular those to Delay Repay.

I see, thank you. I will check further with them and see what they have to say.