Two-Man Operation?

[PaulMac]

How common is two-man operation in UK railways nowadays? Beginning in the 2000s, we switched to one-man operation (for a hefty pay rise) but I do wonder about other countries. Do some UK locos still require two drivers for signal sighting?

 

[fodphil]

For a start off, lets put the myth of a hefty pay rise to bed. DOO freight trains came in during the mid 80s and drivers got psid about 8 quid a shift extra if they worked one.

 

[PaulMac]

For a start off, let’s put the myth of a hefty pay rise to bed. DOO freight trains came in during the mid 80s and drivers got psid about 8 quid a shift extra if they worked one.

I’m not in the UK. We get the equivalent of roughly £400 per eight-hour shift. Around 15% of that is from switching to DOO.

 

[baz962]

I’m not in the UK. We get the equivalent of roughly £400 per eight-hour shift. Around 15% of that is from switching to DOO.

Where are you based bud.

 

[fodphil]

This was in BR days, when privatisation arrived, all train crew grade were restuctured and DOO became the norm for freight operation and the majority of passenger ECS.
Most passenger services have guards on apart from suburban work in the South East/London and in Glasgow.
So there is no DOO payment as such

 

[PaulMac]

Where are you based bud.

Another country. As a relative latecomer to the railways (I was well into middle age when I decided to become a driver), I’m genuinely curious about what happens elsewhere in the world.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2025 ==

This was in BR days, when privatisation arrived, all train crew grade were restuctured and DOO became the norm for freight operation and the majority of passenger ECS.
Most passenger services have guards on apart from suburban work in the South East/London and in Glasgow.
So there is no DOO payment as such

That’s very interesting. Thanks.

So how do freight drivers deal with shunting? Are there assistants on site to help with uncoupling and brake tests?

What’s the function of a guard on passenger train? Besides checking tickets, do they also have a role in confirming signals or section authorities?

 

[baz962]

A

Another country. As a relative latecomer to the railways (I was well into middle age when I decided to become a driver), I’m genuinely curious about what happens elsewhere in the world.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2025 ==

T

That’s very interesting. Thanks.

So how do freight drivers deal with shunting? Are there assistants on site to help with uncoupling and brake tests?

What’s the function of a guard on passenger train? Besides checking tickets, do they also have a role in confirming signals or section authorities?

I started as a trainee at 48 , around 7 years ago and started doo anyway. Took a paycut to go inter city guarded .

 

[PaulMac]

I started as a trainee at 48 , around 7 years ago and started doo anyway. Took a paycut to go inter city guarded .

Good for you for making it at 48! It was a bit of a handful for me, especially spending months in different towns to learn their lines.

How’s life as a guard? I couldn’t handle dealing with passengers day in, day out!

 

[baz962]

Good for you for making it at 48! It was a bit of a handful for me, especially spending months in different towns to learn their lines.

How’s life as a guard? I couldn’t handle dealing with passengers day in, day out!

I was never a guard , new to the railway when I started. I too wouldn't want to do it.

 

[PaulMac]

I was never a guard , new to the railway when I started. I too wouldn't want to do it.

Sorry! I misunderstood your comment above about ‘inter-city guarded’.

I drive on long rural lines with very few stations or signals. No one bothers the driver. You can listen to music, admire the wildlife, or just zone out. You’ll never see me back in an office.

 

[LowLevel]

Another country. As a relative latecomer to the railways (I was well into middle age when I decided to become a driver), I’m genuinely curious about what happens elsewhere in the world.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2025 ==


That’s very interesting. Thanks.

So how do freight drivers deal with shunting? Are there assistants on site to help with uncoupling and brake tests?

What’s the function of a guard on passenger train? Besides checking tickets, do they also have a role in confirming signals or section authorities?

Freight drivers either do shunting themselves or have mobile or fixed ground staff to do it.

Guards on passenger trains usually operate the doors, might have preparation duties depending on the stock and operators, deal with faults with onboard equipment not related to traction (air conditioning, doors, toilets etc) and have training to deal with emergencies - they can do the non driving element of the driver's role in terms of protecting the train and line if the driver is unable to do so.

It does all vary significantly though - I work on 1980s diesel multiple units that don't have on board train management systems and the guard is much more involved in things like identifying faults because a lot of stuff the driver has no way of knowing from the cab - even on a more modern train from the late 90s in the form of a class 170 stage one fault finding for the driver is "ask the guard to have a look what's going on and report back".

 

[PaulMac]

T

Freight drivers either do shunting themselves or have mobile or fixed ground staff to do it.

Guards on passenger trains usually operate the doors, might have preparation duties depending on the stock and operators, deal with faults with onboard equipment not related to traction (air conditioning, doors, toilets etc) and have training to deal with emergencies - they can do the non driving element of the driver's role in terms of protecting the train and line if the driver is unable to do so.

It does all vary significantly though - I work on 1980s diesel multiple units that don't have on board train management systems and the guard is much more involved in things like identifying faults because a lot of stuff the driver has no way of knowing from the cab - even on a more modern train from the late 90s in the form of a class 170 stage one fault finding for the driver is "ask the guard to have a look what's going on and report back".

Thanks - that’s super-informative. It sounds like guards are rather useful to have around! Does having a guard allow you to move the train back in the case of a platform overshoot?

We used to have guards, too. They would do all the stuff you’ve mentioned above, as well as confirm section authorities.

They got rid of our guards in the 90s and paid drivers more. On-board staff nowadays deal with passengers but can’t fault-find or protect trains.

 

[DelW]

Guards may have revenue duties as well, checking and/or selling tickets, though practice varies between (and even within) operating companies.

On rural lines, (e.g. the Heart of Wales between Swansea and Shrewsbury), the majority of tickets are sold on board by the guards, as most stations don't have ticket offices or machines. Online electronic tickets are slowly eroding this, but the line passes through many areas with poor or no data signal.

 

[godfreycomplex]

T

Thanks - that’s super-informative. It sounds like guards are rather useful to have around! Does having a guard allow you to move the train back in the case of a platform overshoot?

Drivers must change ends and drive back under the signallers’ instruction for platform overshoots (unless over a certain distance, where they simply report to the signaller and subsequently carry on to the next calling point)

Propelling moves are very much frowned upon in the UK and pretty much only happen with freight

Much the same as in your country each operator in different parts of the country is collectively bargained differently so pay and conditions vary and DOO isn’t necessarily an escalator for wages. Indeed the lowest paid operator here has DOO, but the highest paid in fact is the only one that requires 2 guards!

Apart from one class of unit in COVID and steam locos double crewed traction for signal sighting went out in 1996 (and that was only for trains that went above 110 mph)

 

[PaulMac]

Drivers must change ends and drive back under the signallers’ instruction for platform overshoots (unless over a certain distance, where they simply report to the signaller and subsequently carry on to the next calling point)

Propelling moves are very much frowned upon in the UK and pretty much only happen with freight

Much the same as in your country each operator in different parts of the country is collectively bargained differently so pay and conditions vary and DOO isn’t necessarily an escalator for wages. Indeed the lowest paid operator here has DOO, but the highest paid in fact is the only one that requires 2 guards!

Apart from one class of unit in COVID and steam locos double crewed traction for signal sighting went out in 1996 (and that was only for trains that went above 110 mph)

Very interesting. When we had guards - well before my time - if you had an overshoot, you’d just call the signaller and the guard would jump out and wave you back. That was even true with loco-hauled stock.

There are massive discrepancies in my country between operators. Our company pays us a flat £400 (£500 on weekends) per shift regardless of whether we’ve worked two hours or seven. Other companies flog drivers like mangy donkeys.

i imagine it’s similar in the UK, with some operators treating their staff markedly better than others.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Very interesting. When we had guards - well before my time - if you had an overshoot, you’d just call the signaller and the guard would jump out and wave you back. That was even true with loco-hauled stock.

I’m not entirely sure but there was a big review of permissive signaling practices including propelling in wake of the Stafford crash of 1990 so it may have come in then

Other companies flog drivers like mangy donkeys.

i imagine it’s similar in the UK

Aye….

Although as far as I can see the main factor in that in the UK is that some local company councils of the trade union let the company flog drivers like mangy donkeys, and some don't

(Realistically, there are very few, if any, companies in the UK that don't have anything to appeal to anyone. One TOC, for instance, was notorious for having to work 100+ stops DOO per day on very outdated rolling stock, with tedious work content and minimal breaks, in one of the most expensive areas of the country, and for a company not known for their consideration for their employees. However, some depots for that operator have such sought after work that the waiting list was, until recently, decades long, despite working for the same company. Horses for courses, as we say)

 

[dk1]

Does having a guard allow you to move the train back in the case of a platform overshoot?

Christ!! Absolutely not.

 

[saismee]

I drive on long rural lines with very few stations or signals. No one bothers the driver. You can listen to music, admire the wildlife, or just zone out.

I seriously hope you were referring to passengers, not the driver

I don't know of any operators that have more than one person involved in driving (excluding control/signallers/heritage, of course). On GA, degraded dispatch (I believe that's the term) is only used on certain workings, someone more knowledgeable can explain. This is where the guard operates the doors, I am unsure whether the dispatch staff do anything different (does degraded dispatch include operating the key switches?)

 

[dk1]

On GA, degraded dispatch (I believe that's the term) is only used on certain workings, someone more knowledgeable can explain. This is where the guard operates the doors, I am unsure whether the dispatch staff do anything different (does degraded dispatch include operating the key switches?)

Guards can only close the doors on 745/755 units. The cannot open them. A few services are booked for staff refreshing purposes daily but guards can take over at any time for camera failures, sun bleaching, or any other training.

 

[PaulMac]

I seriously hope you were referring to passengers, not the driver

Trust me: when you’re tootling along at 70 MPH in a single-line section with no signals and 50 miles between stations, selective zoning out and audiobooks are the only things between you and the straitjacket.

 

[saismee]

Guards can only close the doors on 745/755 units. The cannot open them. A few services are booked for staff refreshing purposes daily but guards can take over at any time for camera failures, sun bleaching, or any other training.

To correct my sentence: on GA, degraded dispatch is always used on certain workings to keep guards trained, and is used when the driver is unable to safely dispatch on their own. Thank you(!)

Trust me: when you’re tootling along at 70 MPH in a single-line section with no signals and 50 miles between stations, selective zoning out and audiobooks are the only things between you and the straitjacket.

That sounds like a quick trip to a meeting with tea and no biscuits...

 

[PaulMac]

That sounds like a quick trip to a meeting with tea and no biscuits...

Our cabs are fitted with MP3 players for personal music and audiobooks.

That’s not a thing in the UK?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Christ!! Absolutely not.

Guards used to be able to control propelling movements,either for shunting or setting back moves. However rules have changed. For units,drivers have to change ends as the TOCs no longer trust guards to tackle this simple feat. On loco hauled stock the guard can still control propelling movements in an emergency.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Our cabs are fitted with MP3 players for personal music and audiobooks.

That’s not a thing in the UK?

Unfortunately not. Very, very strictly forbidden. (Unusually, on a global scale)

If I may ask a counter question - the mp3 players that (AIUI) are widespread in your country, do they cut out when you get a call from the signaller?

 

[PaulMac]

Unfortunately not. Very, very strictly forbidden. (Unusually, on a global scale)

If I may ask a counter question - the mp3 players that (AIUI) are widespread in your country, do they cut out when you get a call from the signaller?

Yes, the integrated MP3 players cut out as soon as there’s any radio traffic on our main channel or a signaller’s call. That makes them essentially unusable around main stations and junctions. We’re not allowed to use our own players or radios.

 

[dk1]

Guards used to be able to control propelling movements,either for shunting or setting back moves. However rules have changed. For units,drivers have to change ends as the TOCs no longer trust guards to tackle this simple feat. On loco hauled stock the guard can still control propelling movements in an emergency.

I remember those days very well. Miss them to an extent.

 

[PaulMac]

(Realistically, there are very few, if any, companies in the UK that don't have anything to appeal to anyone. One TOC, for instance, was notorious for having to work 100+ stops DOO per day on very outdated rolling stock, with tedious work content and minimal breaks, in one of the most expensive areas of the country, and for a company not known for their consideration for their employees. However, some depots for that operator have such sought after work that the waiting list was, until recently, decades long, despite working for the same company. Horses for courses, as we say)

What makes jobs sought after? Some of our shadier operators have atrocious rosters featuring antiquated rolling stock and ungodly hours. They pay less, too - but they’re easier to get into.

Do drivers chase particular rosters or lines? Or is it more about depots closer to home?

 

[baz962]

What makes jobs sought after? Some of our shadier operators have atrocious rosters featuring antiquated rolling stock and ungodly hours. They pay less, too - but they’re easier to get into.

Do drivers chase particular rosters or lines? Or is it more about depots closer to home?

When you say sought after , do you mean already qualified or just from someone that's not yet a driver. Wish you would say which country you are. Anyway in the UK the average working week is 40 hours and minimum wage works out around £25k from April with an average wage of around £37k .
The average wage for a train driver now is around £70k for a 34/35 hour week and more vacation time. Quite a few companies now pay around £600 for a rest day. Some have a booking on payment plus a minimum hours and some get time and a half or time plus 1.75. Couple get flat rate. So it's a sought after career because you are fairly well renumerated. For already qualified it could come down to nearest depot from home or work content. I used to do upto 132 station stops doo. Now 26 stops is a bad day and someone else doing the doors and a better commute.

 

[PaulMac]

When you say sought after , do you mean already qualified or just from someone that's not yet a driver. Wish you would say which country you are. Anyway in the UK the average working week is 40 hours and minimum wage works out around £25k from April with an average wage of around £37k .
The average wage for a train driver now is around £70k for a 34/35 hour week and more vacation time. Quite a few companies now pay around £600 for a rest day. Some have a booking on payment plus a minimum hours and some get time and a half or time plus 1.75. Couple get flat rate. So it's a sought after career because you are fairly well renumerated. For already qualified it could come down to nearest depot from home or work content. I used to do upto 132 station stops doo. Now 26 stops is a bad day and someone else doing the doors and a better commute.

Thanks for that comprehensive response. I’m reluctant to identify my employer as our senior managers are petty and vindictive - mainly because we drivers make good money and have union protection.

We’re on about £100k, but that’s putting in six days a week. Shifts are paid at a flat rate of £500-600 regardless of hours worked (which can never exceed 7.5).

132 stops is unfathomable! I dip my hat to you. My current depot has four stops in each direction: two hours to the next major town, a two-hour break, two hours back, then home. It sounds like you’ve found yourself a pretty good gig, too.

 

[baz962]

Thanks for that comprehensive response. I’m reluctant to identify my employer as our senior managers are petty and vindictive - mainly because we drivers make good money and have union protection.

We’re on about £100k, but that’s putting in six days a week. Shifts are paid at a flat rate of £500-600 regardless of hours worked (which can never exceed 7.5).

132 stops is unfathomable! I dip my hat to you. My current depot has four stops in each direction: two hours to the next major town, a two-hour break, two hours back, then home. It sounds like you’ve found yourself a pretty good gig, too.

Not employer , just country. I might want to emigrate