Two failure to purchase notices

[Manc102]

Hi all

It appears that Northern rail have recently changed their policy in respect of enforcement.

Previously, if you were unable to buy a ticket prior to boarding (i.e. as a result of queues as there is only one station master) they were happy for people to buy tickets on the train or at the destination. This was the case for the last six years, however, it changed without notice in 2013.

Since the start of the year I have been issued with two Failure to Purchase Notices.

To be clear, at no point was I trying to avoid a fare, I am just an ordinary business commuter trying to buy a ticket/weekly pass during peak times. The second time I deliberately sat in the end carriage as I had seen the conductor in his cab but he did not emerge to check tickets/sell them.

At the destination I walk straight up to security chaps to purchase a ticket and instead am issued with this Notice.

The notice advices that if you are a reoccuring offender, the matter will be referred for prosecution.

Given this is the second time, am I likely to fall into this category and will they indeed attempt to prosecute me, despite the fact that I have made every effort to buy my pass and made no attempt to avoid paying.

I am extremely concerned about this threat as I would have to disclose any conviction to my professional body.

NB: I have since started to get a bus to work, such is my concern over this issue and my dissappointment at the treatment of ordinary commuters by the train company.

 

[pinguini]

Not being bothered to stand in the queue does not equate to "unable to buy a ticket prior to boarding". You should have learned the first time. Buy a ticket at the first possible opportunity - even if you do have to queue.

 

[island]

I understand their policy is first time: failure to purchase notice, second time £80 admin fee, third time court.

If you want to go back to taking the train, you'll need to start paying before you board, like everyone else.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure if any of us can answer your specific question.

I would suggest writing to your MP about the queues at your origin station. According to Northern's Passengers Charter, ", we will try to ensure you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three minutes at all other times" and "We will undertake frequent checks to ensure that the above standards are being achieved" If the queues are a lot longer than this, you could also write to Passenger Focus about that, and also report them to the DfT as a possible breach of franchise.

In reality, you have to wait much longer than 5 minutes at busy times at some stations, and the checks are either not made or not acted upon. That needs addressing, but doesn't get you out of this situation unfortunately.

It is not clear how long the queues at your station are, but if they are very long then I agree that taking the bus instead is a good solution (and the only way this problem will completely go away, to be honest, is if many people do likewise), unless you are a regular passenger in which case a Season ticket may be a good solution? If your station has TOD (ticket on departure) facility from TVMs (ticket vending machines) then online purchases may be another solution, depending on the ticket(s) you require. Most tickets are available online. It is difficult to give precise advice though without knowing details.

It would have been better to take action immediately on receiving the first notice, rather than now, though.

If they do prosecute, then can either use the RoRA, for which they have to prove intent (which, depending on the precise details of the case, you may well be able to successfully defend against such a claim) or alternatively use the Byelaws, which is much easier for them, but is not recordable so no threat to your job. I could not speculate on how they would proceed though.

 

[Manc102]

I did.queue and made.it all the way to the booth but then the train was leaving. If your post about their policy is right I appreciate your post.

Am extra.staff member at peak times or an automated machines wouldn't go amiss at the station as he struggles to through the queue

Cheers

 

[Manc102]

Thanks yorkie, very interested to read your comments re customer charter as I do usually allow 5 mins to queue. Do get a weekly most times but some times don't require a full week

 

[michael769]

It has never been acceptable to board a train from a station with an open ticket office without first buying a ticket. It is a criminal offence to travel on a train witout being in possesion of a valid ticket unless you boarded at a station that did not have ticket selling facilities. Notices warning of this rule are posted at stations.

I do not understand how a queue renders a person unable to buy a ticket.

It is true that for some time a blind eye was paid to people who did so but then bought a ticket on board. Unortunately anone who relies on a blind eye risks someday geting caught out when it is decided to start enforcing the rules.

As for the lack of notice of a change in policy one wonders how you expect Northern to notify you? By issuing you with a note entitled "failure to pay notice" advising you of the rules and the consequences of not following perhaps?

You can easily avoid prosecution by complying with the law and ensuring that you purchase your ticket before boading and keep it on your person, ready to display it to staff when requested, until you exit your destination station. Millions of people manage to do this without problem every day.

If you find waiting in a queue too onerous, can I suggest as an alternative considering (if suitable for your usage) purchasing a season ticket or ordering your tickets in advance online?

 

[156441]

The original poster has already stated that he bought a weekly season ticket when he did get to the booking office. Which as states is a good option. Sadly as the last poster states you have already had a warning and as much as I appreciate the queues at stations on the Northern network if you want to travel by train you are going to have to sadly make that queue part of your commute at least once a week.

I know that Northerns stance will be that it is your responsibility to queue as well. Even if the charter states that the aims are to serve you within 5 mins it is still your responsibility to buy a ticket before travel.

 

[yorkie]

Can posts be at least a bit constructive please?

The original poster has already stated that he bought a weekly season ticket when he did get to the booking office. Which as states is a good option....

and to expand on that, which I should have said earlier, I'd suggest buying in 5-week blocks as that generally works out best value, and cheaper than 5 x weekly tickets. It then means only having to queue once in every 5 week period.

I know that Northerns stance will be that it is your responsibility to queue as well. Even if the charter states that the aims are to serve you within 5 mins it is still your responsibility to buy a ticket before travel.

But we don't actually know how long he was queuing for, it's the customers' responsibility to arrive, how long would you say, before their train? There must be some limit, you can't ask people to wait indefinitely.

If anyone has a problem at their station, you can't just tell people it's their responsibility to leave an unspecified amount of time. They should do something about it, by measuring the length of time, making sure Northern, Passenger Focus, their MP etc are aware of what is going on and it may well be possible to get the problem resolved.

It's also worth asking Northern "How long should I allow?" if they say 20 minutes and that's too long, take the bus. If they say 10 minutes, then allow 10 minutes. If they don't give an answer and the times are really tha bad, escalate it.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The original poster has already stated that he bought a weekly season ticket when he did get to the booking office. Which as states is a good option. Sadly as the last poster states you have already had a warning and as much as I appreciate the queues at stations on the Northern network if you want to travel by train you are going to have to sadly make that queue part of your commute at least once a week.

I know that Northerns stance will be that it is your responsibility to queue as well. Even if the charter states that the aims are to serve you within 5 mins it is still your responsibility to buy a ticket before travel.

That pretty much sums it up

 

[156441]

Yorkie,

Sorry I didn't make myself to clear. I totally agree with you my friend that something needs to change and the OP should complain as you stated earlier.

My post was simply factual in the way that Northern staff have been asked to deal with it. Which is quite simply.....Tough turn up earlier.

 

[Manc102]

Hi all appreciate your comments and as I say, I have made my choice with regards to queues etc and will now get the bus.

my only real concern is northerns next steps, does anyone know whether island's comment on policy is correct? 80 pound fine is massively preferable to any other action, and I will just have to take my medicine

 

[michael769]

If I understand correctly you have only been given a warning notice on both occasions. In which case the matter is closed.

It would be really bad form to prosecute for the same incident as a warning notice was issued. If they were going to take further measures they would have cautioned you rather than issue a warning, so it is unlikely that you will hear anything more.

 

[snail]

The original poster has already stated that he bought a weekly season ticket when he did get to the booking office. Which as states is a good option.

So if there are queues, buy the ticket on a quieter day. If it's for a week it doesn't matter which day it starts on.

Or buy at the destination - I've bought them from FastTicket TVMs after 4pm to start the next day. Again, it doesn't matter which way round the origin and destination stations are shown.

 

[156441]

As I understand the procedure it's an £80 fine to cover the fare and 'admin costs' for a second time offender. As each warning gets sent to our prosecutions department for processing. This is where they will tally up if you've had more than one warning already!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Again, it doesn't matter which way round the origin and destination stations are shown.

That's very poor advice of course it
Matters which way round the destinations are. There are so many faults with that statement not least that some fares can be different dependent on direction of travel!!

 

[causton]

That's very poor advice of course it
Matters which way round the destinations are. There are so many faults with that statement not least that some fares can be different dependent on direction of travel!!

For season tickets...?

 

[yorkie]

To clarify, snail is correct that it does not matter which way round the origin/destination are for Season tickets (by definition, given that a Season allows unlimited journeys).

For single/return tickets, a 'reverse' ticket is not valid and should not be purchased, this has been confirmed with ATOC.

 

[sheff1]

To clarify, snail is correct that it does not matter which way round the origin/destination are for Season tickets (by definition, given that a Season allows unlimited journeys).

I thought it did matter with the TPE Early Bird seasons - at least that is the impression given by NRES.

The OP's user name suggests travel in the Manchester area, so it may be relevant, althoughthe Early Birds are only valid for travel from places from which bus travel is unlikely to be viable.