two bus operators doing same route?

[12CSVT]

It might not be illegal but it can be annoying if you buy a return ticket and the two operators don't accept each other's tickets.

I had this problem the first time I visited the Wensleydale railway several years ago. One operator's buses departing Northallerton on the hour, the other operator on the half hour, with one of the operators only running until late afternoon.

 

[richw]

a lot of routes are unsustainable as a stand alone service, and are council subsidised. the council will not subsidise two different companys on the same route.
On a route near me, a local company got licenced to run an exact route match to a First service.
The local company was charging £1 per trip regardless of how far along the 15mile route you went. There bus was always full. First was charging £5.50 for a return from origin to Destination. The local company timed their services 5mins ahead of First. The local company doing this made a profit. First could not make a profit and needed council subsidising charging the £5.50.
The council stopped the subsidising as passenger numbers were too low. within a month the First had lodged a complaint and got the local company suspended from their operating licence.
Now dont get me wrong but surely its in our benefit as tax payers to have a profitable service sustaining itself at cheaper fares filling the bus, than council subsidising a service that was never more than 20% full?

 

[90019]

First Edinburgh launched a bus war with Lothian several years ago.

I remember it well, the 23 being one of the routes First tried to muscle in on. At that point Lothian were using Olympians (RH bodied, mostly) on the 23, whereas First were using their relatively new Wright Solars. Lothian responded to First starting on the route by loading the route with buses, so there were usually 3-5 of them waiting at the Trinity Terminus.
I never actually got to travel on a Firstbus 23 before they gave up on the route though.

First found that passengers were waiting for the Lothian bus and eventually gave up but the service number remained. I'm not sure they still follow the same routes though.

I believe the 44s still follow pretty much the same route, but Lothian just have the 44 with various different terminii, whereas First have the 44, 44A, 44B, 44C, and 44D.

 

[Mojo]

It might not be illegal but it can be annoying if you buy a return ticket and the two operators don't accept each other's tickets.

It can be even more annoying if you have a season ticket! A few years ago in Birmingham there was a route running from the City Centre to a largely student area which was operated commercially during the day by Travel West Midlands (now trading as National Express West Midlands) and then contracted by Centro to TWM for the evening as a subsidised route.

When it came up for re-tendering the evening services were awarded to an alternative operator and those who had invested in a season ticket suddenly found it worthless as it was only valid on the daytime services, rather than all day as previously. Even worse for the students as the multi-operator bus ticket does not offer the student rate, only the TWM-only ticket and the multi-modal (train, bus & tram) ticket.

 

[tom1649]

The X38 between Derby and Burton-on-trent is operated by both Arriva and Trent Barton in cooperation. For example, the xx.35 and xx.50 departures from Derby are run by Trent Barton and the xx.05 and xx.20 departures from Derby are run by Arriva.

The "Black Cat" service between Derby and Ilkeston is run on a similar basis, but between Trent Barton and Felix.

 

[fairliered]

McGills have recently started services between Glasgow, Paisley and Johnstone, with new buses, in direct competition with Arriva. Arriva Scotland West have a habit of giving up when a competitor starts up against them, but this is their most important route, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Oracle]

Just dropped my son of in Shirley, Southampton. There are 'competing' buses from First Hampshire & Dorset, Blue Star from Marchwood Motorways and fellow Go-Ahead subsidiary Solent Blue Line Ltd, plus Stagecoach Southampton-Winchester!

 

[Statto]

a lot of routes are unsustainable as a stand alone service, and are council subsidised. the council will not subsidise two different companys on the same route.
On a route near me, a local company got licenced to run an exact route match to a First service.
The local company was charging £1 per trip regardless of how far along the 15mile route you went. There bus was always full. First was charging £5.50 for a return from origin to Destination. The local company timed their services 5mins ahead of First. The local company doing this made a profit. First could not make a profit and needed council subsidising charging the £5.50.
The council stopped the subsidising as passenger numbers were too low. within a month the First had lodged a complaint and got the local company suspended from their operating licence.
Now dont get me wrong but surely its in our benefit as tax payers to have a profitable service sustaining itself at cheaper fares filling the bus, than council subsidising a service that was never more than 20% full?

That's out of order, companies can charge whatever fares they like as long as they make a profit, if First don't like it then tough they shouldn't charge ripp off fares in the first place.

There was a route in Manchester[Stockport i think]that had 2 operators during the day, both operators had an hourly service, but they were 5 min apart with a 55 min wait for the next bus.

 

[richw]

That's out of order, companies can charge whatever fares they like as long as they make a profit, if First don't like it then tough they shouldn't charge ripp off fares in the first place.
.

I know my thoughts too.
But my bigger question was why First was not making profit at £5 + returns, and the local firm was profitable at £1 per journey!
The local firms £1 per journey was the same whether you traveled 1 stop up the road, or the full length

 

[ChrisCooper]

I've known it happen quite a few times where companies have managed to run formerly subsidised routes for a profit. Where I live for example the main operator, part of a large local group, dropped quite a few of it's marginal services. The council came in and subsidised, and a coach operator stepped in on one route using Varios, but by providing a better service and slightly cheaper fares managed to built up custom so within a year they registered it commercially and bought some brand new MPDs. Ironically the main operator is now gradually picking up some of it's old work again, either on subsidy or in one case commercial after the council dropped it, but I think this is one route it won't get back without a fight (there is some bad blood between the companies as the coach companies previous and first foray into bus work was in direct and fierce competition with the main operator, a competition it lost more down to the bigger companies ability to throw resocurce into it than anything).

Regarding competition, I think in general it's good. It's bus wars that tend to be bad as they tend to be fairly short, brutal, and the only winner is the company who comes out ontop. Normally that's the bigger company, and usually they will be the one who starts the war in the first place (typical scenario is big operator runs a half hourly service, smaller operator sticks buses on in between bigger operators buses at lower fares, big operator sticks even cheaper bus, usually something that would otherwise be going down the scrapyard, a few mins infront of competition and starts a war). Bus wars are where you get traffic chaos from buses queing to get onto stops, accidents from buses racing, questionable tactics to poach passengers and the like. I've only once known a bus war where the smaller operator won, and that was only because the big operator paid them to stop running (in the bus war I mentioned earlier there is a rumour that the main operator paid off the other one, but I've never had it confirmed, and ironically the main operator in that case was the smaller one in this case), although sadly a long established independent ended up as early collateral damage, being bought by the bigger operator both to strengthen their standing in the area and also because the bus war effected them too.

 

[jamesontheroad]

A good recent example is the spat between First and Arriva here in Glasgow.

Until early January of this year, Arriva held the "exclusive" (i.e. expensive) BAA contract to provide an express bus between Glasgow International Airport and the city centre, and did so using a dedicated fleet called the Glasgow Flyer and numbered 500. The "exclusivity" of the contract allowed the buses to stop on airport property right outside domestic arrivals. All other public buses have to use the secondary road in front of the terminal.

In January, when the contract was up, it was awarded to First. As a result of the "exclusive" contract, First got the rights to stop outside the terminal and launched their "Glasgow Shuttle" also numbered 500. Arriva, however, didn't give up without a fight, and continued to operate the Glasgow Flyer as service 500, but were forced to use a bus stop out of sight of the terminal forecourt. Leaving Glasgow, one bus would usually shadow another, and they could pretty much alternate at bus stops depending on which one got hailed first. There was naturally a lot of confusion and frustration by passengers getting on the wrong bus, especially as Glasgwegian bus drivers aren't the most customer friendly.

This lasted until about June or July when Arriva finally threw in the towel. I've heard they're considering extending one of their existing local routes (that currently terminates at the airport and has rights to a more visible bus stop) into the city centre as a cheaper competitor to First.

 

[mancnq]

Here are two different examples of different bus companies running on the same route:

The 42 in Manchester (Piccadilly to East Didsbury) is a commercial service run competitively by Stagecoach and Finglands. Stagecoach even run buses under two brands on this route: standard Stagecoach and Magic Bus, which is a bit cheaper and aimed at the student market. The 86 in Liverpool (to Garston) is another example of this, currently served by Arriva and Stagecoach, although when I was a student there, I had a choice of about 5 companies all on the same route using the same number!

Route A between Eastleigh and Hedge End (near Southampton) is different. The Mon-Sat daytime service is operated by Velvet, but they don't think it'd be profitable to run in the evenings or on Sundays. The local council however thinks there is a need for buses on that route at those times, so they subsidise First to provide evening journeys and Stagecoach to provide Sunday journeys. So here you have three operators on the same route, but not competing head-to-head. One provides a commercial service and the other two provide subsidised top-up journeys at other times.

 

[Phil6219]

The 192 immediately springs to mind, apparently it is the busiest bus route in Great Britain and for a time was responsible for most of South Central Manchester's traffic problems...

2006

Stagecoach run the route as the primary operator, they had a 10 minute frequency. UK North, a new independent operator arrives and starts running it's own service along the 192 route. UK North decides to increase it's frequency of buses by 12 per hour so Stagecoach introduce their "Magic Bus" (as mentioned above) to the route to supplement their own services. Chaos then ensues thanks to lines of route 192 buses queuing all over the Piccadilly Gardens and Central Manchester waiting to gain access to the two bus stops in use for this service.

It got so bad it managed to hit the headlines in the local newspapers as well as regional TV. Eventually GMPTE stepped in and insisted self regulation as it was becoming dangerous with so many buses parked waiting (making crossing the road rather tricky). UK North had its license suspended after an investigation which revealed that most of the drivers had an extremely poor grasp of our road traffic laws.

UK North even tried to bring back the GM Buses name which in my opinion was a good idea just a shame they focused so much on one route and let their others slip. As for their drivers, well there were quite a few good ones but then some that shouldn't be driving (those caught on the wrong side of the road etc...) They did dangerously overcrowd their buses too (thinking of the CoMS shuttle on match days) as it would be so full people would be standing in the step by the door - I know as I've stood there myself. Though it is worth pointing out that Stagecoach have done that as well.

Back before deregulation we had GM Buses, a fantastic company which operated for profit however would use some of it's profits to self subsidize it's lesser routes - therefore actually providing a public service. The company was split into GM Buses North and GM Buses South when deregulation finally came. GMN was bought by First Group and GMS went to Stagecoach. The idea was that both would compete and give everyone a good deal but instead both companies avoid competition and stick within geographical boundaries instead.

The 22 bus route is unique here though as it runs from Bolton through to Stockport, hence crosses the North/South divide. Both companies operate the service in an alternating pattern, first half hourly and then when it becomes and hourly service. The ticketing on this service can be tricky as neither company accepts the others tickets (return or day tickets) though they do accept the other companies weekly, monthly or annual passes.

A trick that First used to do regularly (until someone reported them for it) was the previously mentioned "Delayed bus" trick, First would run their bus around 20-25 minutes behind schedule so it was picking up it's own passengers (who would be rather miffed by now) and also those waiting for the Stagecoach service.

But my bigger question was why First was not making profit at £5 + returns, and the local firm was profitable at £1 per journey!
The local firms £1 per journey was the same whether you traveled 1 stop up the road, or the full length [\QUOTE]

The bigger question is why in Crawley (Metro Bus / Govia) can I buy a ticket for £1.40 and yet pay £3.80 with First Group for the same distance journey up north?

There was talk a few years ago about bringing back regulation to buses in Greater Manchester to sort out the services and also make prices fair and keep them in check. I do hope it happens soon as it's just getting worse and worse.

Phil

 

[gnolife]

The 192 immediately springs to mind, apparently it is the busiest bus route in Great Britain and for a time was responsible for most of South Central Manchester's traffic problems...

2006


The 22 bus route is unique here though as it runs from Bolton through to Stockport, hence crosses the North/South divide. Both companies operate the service in an alternating pattern, first half hourly and then when it becomes and hourly service. The ticketing on this service can be tricky as neither company accepts the others tickets (return or day tickets) though they do accept the other companies weekly, monthly or annual passes.

Phil

First run most of the daytime services on the 22, with Stagecoach providing Afternoon Peak and evening services (I don't know about in the morning). However, First honour Stagecoach Megariders (7 day paper only), and Stagecoach honour First weekly passes.

 

[anthony263]

The 192 immediately springs to mind, apparently it is the busiest bus route in Great Britain and for a time was responsible for most of South Central Manchester's traffic problems...

2006

Stagecoach run the route as the primary operator, they had a 10 minute frequency. UK North, a new independent operator arrives and starts running it's own service along the 192 route. UK North decides to increase it's frequency of buses by 12 per hour so Stagecoach introduce their "Magic Bus" (as mentioned above) to the route to supplement their own services. Chaos then ensues thanks to lines of route 192 buses queuing all over the Piccadilly Gardens and Central Manchester waiting to gain access to the two bus stops in use for this service.

It got so bad it managed to hit the headlines in the local newspapers as well as regional TV. Eventually GMPTE stepped in and insisted self regulation as it was becoming dangerous with so many buses parked waiting (making crossing the road rather tricky). UK North had its license suspended after an investigation which revealed that most of the drivers had an extremely poor grasp of our road traffic laws.

UK North even tried to bring back the GM Buses name which in my opinion was a good idea just a shame they focused so much on one route and let their others slip. As for their drivers, well there were quite a few good ones but then some that shouldn't be driving (those caught on the wrong side of the road etc...) They did dangerously overcrowd their buses too (thinking of the CoMS shuttle on match days) as it would be so full people would be standing in the step by the door - I know as I've stood there myself. Though it is worth pointing out that Stagecoach have done that as well.

Back before deregulation we had GM Buses, a fantastic company which operated for profit however would use some of it's profits to self subsidize it's lesser routes - therefore actually providing a public service. The company was split into GM Buses North and GM Buses South when deregulation finally came. GMN was bought by First Group and GMS went to Stagecoach. The idea was that both would compete and give everyone a good deal but instead both companies avoid competition and stick within geographical boundaries instead.

The 22 bus route is unique here though as it runs from Bolton through to Stockport, hence crosses the North/South divide. Both companies operate the service in an alternating pattern, first half hourly and then when it becomes and hourly service. The ticketing on this service can be tricky as neither company accepts the others tickets (return or day tickets) though they do accept the other companies weekly, monthly or annual passes.

A trick that First used to do regularly (until someone reported them for it) was the previously mentioned "Delayed bus" trick, First would run their bus around 20-25 minutes behind schedule so it was picking up it's own passengers (who would be rather miffed by now) and also those waiting for the Stagecoach service.

But my bigger question was why First was not making profit at £5 + returns, and the local firm was profitable at £1 per journey!
The local firms £1 per journey was the same whether you traveled 1 stop up the road, or the full length [\QUOTE]

The bigger question is why in Crawley (Metro Bus / Govia) can I buy a ticket for £1.40 and yet pay £3.80 with First Group for the same distance journey up north?

There was talk a few years ago about bringing back regulation to buses in Greater Manchester to sort out the services and also make prices fair and keep them in check. I do hope it happens soon as it's just getting worse and worse.

Phil

UK North actually got into trouble as well because of the state of some of their vehicles, some which it is said should not have been out on the road.

Also there was an issue with some of their foreign drivers who had come to manchester from a certain south wales bus operator which is now not in business (Although the owner has started up a new bus operater in the south wales valleys, and it is not new adventure travel who are a great company)

 

[Statto]

The main reasons UK North/GM Buses had its licence revoked was an incident, which one of there buses had a fatal crash into a Cherry Picker, plus a string of other incidents including crashing into a bridge. The Directors of the firm were later jailed i think for falsifying records.

 

[bb21]

W&D and Stagecoach (formerly Hampshire Bus) have been in co-operation for many years so would be unlikely to break this relationship by competing.

I guess that comes from the fact, partly, that they were split up from the same company in NBC days.

There are exceptions, such as the route between Bournemouth and Poole which used to be W&D only but now has Yellow Buses and W&D competing, but Yellow Buses now have competition on its own routes in Bournemouth. It is debatable whether there is a winner in this contest.

The only part of the picture where there is now considerably more competition is the Bournemouth - Poole corridor for through passengers. On most of the routes where the two operators compete, there is some local variation. On those routes where there is local variation, I think both operators have found their place. Between Bournemouth and Christchurch it is still the same as it has always been - W&D serving Fairmile and YB serving Jumpers and Southbourne.

Operators can compete on commercially operated routes only, but if they are an exact copy of the route, running with the same timetabled points, then there are restrictions on timetabling, i.e. the 2 services are not allowed to run more than 15 minutes apart (so Stagecoach can't operate an hourly service, leaving a point at xx:00, with say Arriva running along the same route at xx:30, they would have to depart between xx:45 and xx:15). These timings are supposed to increase the competition, giving passengers the choice, rather than having an either or service, which is actually more beneficial for passengers as it fills a timetabled gap.

Can you elaborate this "15-minute" business please? Although I cannot think of an example off the top of my head, I am sure that Arriva Fox County and Kinch used to operate the 123 between Leicester and Derby via Woodhouse Eaves, Loughborough, Kegworth and East Midlands Airport in direct competition with each other. The tickets were not inter-available and departures were hourly with both operators and 30 minutes apart, except the first and last few departures of the day.