two bus operators doing same route?

[TheWalrus]

Hi
Recently i was told it is illegal for two competing bus operators to travel between two places via the same route. Is this so? For example: wilts and dorset operate service x5 between swindon-salisbury. Would say stagecoach then be able to operate the same route between swindon-salisbury or does the transport act prevent it? And could they still do swindon-salisbury but via an alternative route?

Cheers

Ryan

 

[radamfi]

Hi
Recently i was told it is illegal for two competing bus operators to travel between two places via the same route. Is this so?

Far from being illegal, competition outside London has been actively encouraged since 1986, but most routes don't have enough business for more than one operator, and competition between big companies is mostly avoided as you would lose money in the long run because of retaliation.

You do get some joint services where they don't compete, such as Andover to Salisbury where Wilts and Dorset and Stagecoach co-ordinate their services and accept each other's tickets.

 

[TheWalrus]

So stagecoach could operate their own "x5" following the exact same route?
So also why does the 70 between marlborough-swindon go along thr back road through draycot if it could just go up the main road like the x5?

 

[jp4712]

The X5 is express serving mainly end-to-end customers. The 70 goes through Draycot because there is potential custom there.

 

[radamfi]

So stagecoach could operate their own "x5" following the exact same route?

They could, but Wilts & Dorset would then compete with Stagecoach on their own routes so ultimately they would both lose money. W&D and Stagecoach (formerly Hampshire Bus) have been in co-operation for many years so would be unlikely to break this relationship by competing.

There are exceptions, such as the route between Bournemouth and Poole which used to be W&D only but now has Yellow Buses and W&D competing, but Yellow Buses now have competition on its own routes in Bournemouth. It is debatable whether there is a winner in this contest.

The most famously competitive area, Oxford, has implemented a Quality Partnership allowing the two main companies to have joint services on most routes so competition has died even here.

 

[TheWalrus]

The X5 is express serving mainly end-to-end customers. The 70 goes through Draycot because there is potential custom there.

Not much! Have you been through there?!
What im really tryin to get at here is the new route 5 stagecoach intend to run, will it go via pewsey (like x5) or via tidworth, absorbing route 70/80, then follow the activ8 route from tidworth to salisbury? Going via tidworth is more direct to amesbury/salisbury…

 

[radamfi]

What im really tryin to get at here is the new route 5 stagecoach intend to run

How do you know Stagecoach want to do their own 5?

 

[TheWalrus]

http://sebusscene.blogspot.com/
Scroll to the bottom of the third post.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi
Recently i was told it is illegal for two competing bus operators to travel between two places via the same route. Is this so? For example: wilts and dorset operate service x5 between swindon-salisbury. Would say stagecoach then be able to operate the same route between swindon-salisbury or does the transport act prevent it?

If you were to examine the total of the timetables published by TfGM, you would be amazed by the numbers of services with more than one operator. Who told you this was illegal?

 

[142094]

What you'll often find is that the big operators look at other routes run by different companies, then match those in some way or another (might not be a total match), and undercut that company. Smaller company X goes bust, leaving bigger company Y [insert Stagecoach/First/Go Ahead/Arriva here] to run the monopoly and increase prices as they like. Of course then if the route becomes unprofitable, the route is chopped and only reinstated when a LA or PTE steps in to fill the gap.

 

[TheWalrus]

Who told you this was illegal?

A bus driver said there was a law preventing two operators running over exactly the same route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A bus driver said there was a law preventing two operators running over exactly the same route.

Bus drivers say many things, but they are not always infallible in what they say. :roll:

 

[causton]

Bus drivers say many things, but they are not always infallible in what they say. :roll:

Indeed, what about all the evening services? In Hertfordshire a lot of the evening bus services are subsidised (i.e. given out to whoever will do them for cheapest) - which means there are usually 2 operators.

On the 242 (Waltham Cross - Potters Bar) you have
Mon - Sat daytimes: Metroline
Mon - Sat evenings (after 7pm-ish): Sullivan Buses
Sunday (along with an every 2 hours extension Potters Bar - Welwyn Garden): Centrebus!
So there are 3 operators on the same route, I think Herts CC would have picked up if it were illegal (or maybe not, but still )

 

[TheWalrus]

Im on about commercial runs during the day!

 

[driver9000]

First Edinburgh launched a bus war with Lothian several years ago. They renumbered and rerouted some of their services such as the 44 to match Lothians. First found that passengers were waiting for the Lothian bus and eventually gave up but the service number remained. I'm not sure they still follow the same routes though.

 

[causton]

In that case, look at the Uno and Arriva 712 services. This is I think the closest you'll get to the exact same route that I can think of right now, basically the route runs between St Albans and London Victoria to compete with Thameslink. It didn't do very well, so now Arriva does 2 runs a day in the opposite direction to what anyone would want (they're basically dead runs back to the depot to fulfil an agreement with the Butterfly World in Chiswell Green). Uno saw this opportunity and as they run the local St Albans services, they decided to run the exact same route Arriva used to do and give people who used their service free travel on the local buses to get back home from the city centre.

So now you have
Arriva: St Albans - London
Uno: Hatfield (off peak) - St Albans (most journeys) - London

Here's a link to the timetable for the route - I know they're not the same but very similar!

 

[Oracle]

The 6 Southampton - Lymington is a Blue Star route but also has Wilts & Dorset buses on it..both being Go-Ahead companies. The legal lettering on the BS buses is Marchwood Motorways of Totton and not the Barton Park, Eastleigh one.

I gather that the Blue Star drivers get paid less or have different wage rates than W&D drivers?

 

[Mojo]

The confusion may arise in that it is not permitted for local authority subsidised/contracted routes to act in direct competition with commercially operated routes, although such routes may provide an alternative the reason for their operation should not be as such. For example this is the reason that the blue and red Park & Ride routes in Bristol do not stop at intermediate stops en-route, or why the Orbital routes are not marketed as a cheaper way of getting into the Centre.

 

[radamfi]

The 6 Southampton - Lymington is a Blue Star route but also has Wilts & Dorset buses on it..both being Aviva companies. The legal lettering on the BS buses is Marchwood Motorways of Totton and not the Barton Park, Eastleigh one.

Bluestar and Wilts & Dorset are part of the Go-Ahead group.

Marchwood used to run services as a franchise from Solent Blue Line, which was fairly unique, but is now part of Go-Ahead as well.

I didn't realise Aviva had diversified from insurance to buses! LOL!

 

[northwichcat]

Would say stagecoach then be able to operate the same route between swindon-salisbury or does the transport act prevent it?

Stagecoach did exactly that in numerous areas of the country and put numerous small companies out-of-business in doing so.

It used to be the case that when Stagecoach first wanted a market share in an area they would approach an existing company for a takeover deal. If they rejected they set up their own company - not under the Stagecoach brand name but something sounding like a new local company with brand new buses. The new local sounding company then ran exactly the same services as the established one but the new local one had an introductory fare promotion. When the new company had established the market the fare promotion ended, the new buses disappeared and some older cascaded Stagecoach buses took over.

In other areas where Stagecoach had a market but wanted a bigger one e.g. Preston they used aggressive tactics such as leaving their buses stopped at bus stops for a few minutes so the other operators bus that was behind them didn't have anyone to pick up. Alternatively having inspectors at bus stops, then when someone doesn't board a Stagecoach bus the inspector makes up a lie about the other operator being short of buses/drivers so they've cancelled a lot of services and advising them to catch the Stagecoach bus instead.

 

[cainebj]

Operators can compete on commercially operated routes only, but if they are an exact copy of the route, running with the same timetabled points, then there are restrictions on timetabling, i.e. the 2 services are not allowed to run more than 15 minutes apart (so Stagecoach can't operate an hourly service, leaving a point at xx:00, with say Arriva running along the same route at xx:30, they would have to depart between xx:45 and xx:15). These timings are supposed to increase the competition, giving passengers the choice, rather than having an either or service, which is actually more beneficial for passengers as it fills a timetabled gap.

 

[Seacook]

Where I live, the 410 route between West Bromwich and Wednesbury is operated by National Express and Diamond - each runs a bus every 12 minutes timetabled to provide a six minute service to passengers.

Routes run by more than one operator are uncommon, but they definitely exist.

 

[TheWalrus]

So does anyone know anything about the stagecoach swindon new route 5?

 

[northwichcat]

Routes run by more than one operator are uncommon, but they definitely exist.

There's thousands of routes that are run by multiple operators. However, many of them are one operator up until a certain time then another operator after that time, or a different operator at the weekend opposed to two operators running the same route at the same time of day.

How do you actually define the same route.

If company 1 runs a bus route between Place A and Place D via Places B and C, is company 2's route between Place A and Place E via Places B and C classed as the same route (assuming place D is a town two miles from Place E)?

 

[radamfi]

Direct, head-on, competition definitely does exist, but it is by far the exception rather than the rule and is rare outside major cities. However, there are countless examples of overlapping routes between operators which could be considered to be competition. For example, in Nottingham Trent Barton and NCT don't really compete as such, but as NCT run mostly local routes and Trent Barton run longer distance routes along the same roads, it could be perceived as competition.

 

[andrew bell]

In that case, look at the Uno and Arriva 712 services. This is I think the closest you'll get to the exact same route that I can think of right now, basically the route runs between St Albans and London Victoria to compete with Thameslink. It didn't do very well, so now Arriva does 2 runs a day in the opposite direction to what anyone would want (they're basically dead runs back to the depot to fulfil an agreement with the Butterfly World in Chiswell Green). Uno saw this opportunity and as they run the local St Albans services, they decided to run the exact same route Arriva used to do and give people who used their service free travel on the local buses to get back home from the city centre.

So now you have
Arriva: St Albans - London
Uno: Hatfield (off peak) - St Albans (most journeys) - London

Here's a link to the timetable for the route - I know they're not the same but very similar!

I can get 2 bus operators running the exact same route, Arriva 500 and Wootens Tiger Line T2 both run between Hemel Hempstead and Watford via Apsley, Kings Langley and the Cassiobury estate in Watford. Arriva do extend 2 buses an hour to Aylesbury so overall there are 6 buses an hour between 10am and 6pm between Hemel Hempstead and Watford, 4 by Arriva, 2 by Tiger Line

 

[Seacook]

There's thousands of routes that are run by multiple operators. However, many of them are one operator up until a certain time then another operator after that time, or a different operator at the weekend opposed to two operators running the same route at the same time of day.

How do you actually define the same route.

If company 1 runs a bus route between Place A and Place D via Places B and C, is company 2's route between Place A and Place E via Places B and C classed as the same route (assuming place D is a town two miles from Place E)?

I should have said run simultaneously as opposed to having a sequential monopoly.

I would not class your example as showing two buses on the same route: they are routes that overlap. The companies would only be in competition between A and C (and would probably have different route numbers).

I am unsure how to classify a position where company 1 runs A-B-C-D-E and company 2 runs A-B-C-D.

There is also a situation where company 1 runs A-B-C-D-E and company 2 runs A-B-C and C-D-E. There is a setup like this, where A=Walsall, C=West Bromwich and E=Blackheath: National Express run the 404 end to end and Diamond run two separate routes both numbered 404E.

I could be convinced either way on these two. My original example was based on two buses running exactly the same route at the same time.

 

[northwichcat]

There is also a situation where company 1 runs A-B-C-D-E and company 2 runs A-B-C and C-D-E. There is a setup like this, where A=Walsall, C=West Bromwich and E=Blackheath: National Express run the 404 end to end and Diamond run two separate routes both numbered 404E.

Reading that I've just thought of another question. If one route is route 41 for instance and another is X41, with the X41 starting from the same point as the 41 and being non-stop to the same destination as the 41, but the 41 being all stops - which is a common occurrence for Airport buses, would the two be classed as competing if one is significantly slower than the other?

I could be convinced either way on these two. My original example was based on two buses running exactly the same route at the same time.

I thought that was the general idea but I thought of a South Yorkshire route where First and Stagecoach compete for a lucrative flow on an approx 5 mile section but then First go off to one destination while Stagecoach to another which is why I asked.

 

[northernrail]

The 17 in Manchester is ran by First, JPT and Eurobus

 

[Eagle]

In the mornings through Kenilworth at the moment, the Stagecoach U12 (introduced in 2010) is a direct copy, stop for stop, of the National Express 12 between Leamington and the University. Unlike other examples in the thread the serviced are not coordinated or interworked, and it's quite obvious that this was a moneygrab on Stagecoach's behalf aimed at Kenilworth students (formerly the first Stagecoach bus between Kenilworth and the University wasn't until 09.45, so Kenilworth students use the NX buspass).