Twitter-the train driver's enemy

[notadriver]

I'm not in a position to make even an estimate on cost effectiveness, but I disagree that professional drivers are prone to using mobile phones. Unfortunately some are, but typically bus/coach/lorry companies fitting this sort of equipment are not the cowboys anyway!

http://youtu.be/rroloqGs_LI

 

[O L Leigh]

There is no benefit to be set against the cost of in-cab CCTV. All it would do is to hang a driver in the rare event that some wrongdoing was the cause of some event or other. There is no economic or financial benefit to this.

O L Leigh

 

[driver_m]

But in-cab CCTV does not do that so there should be no objection to its presence. To have a recording of events as they ocurred will allow an examination to be undertaken for later assessment rather than having to rely on the fallible or skewed memory of witnesses, independent or otherwise.

CCTV will inevitably happen eventually so why not embrace it sooner rather than later?

We have perfectly good cameras that point out of the cabs, and black boxes that can help with things like that. Airlines seem to manage just fine with the same data when investigating things. When I drive a train I want to concentrate on what I'm doing, not getting paranoid about whether someone in an office is watching my every move in order to justify their job and screwing up as a result.

CCTV will not inevitably happen because companies don't like spending money on something that isn't required, and we are already analysed more than adequately with downloads, cab rides by management, and many safety systems. The result being a professional work force that does a professional job, and that includes those of us with beards, mutton chops, taches, wild hair, no hair, wonky ties, no ties, dirty shoes, 'crazy' socks, beer bellies, polo shirts, tattoos, etc.

You might want to think about our boss Martybabes, you know the slightly unkempt tie-hating boss we have, he hasn't done too badly has he?

 

[swj99]

To be fair, this thread isn't anti rail staff......

True enough.

I think the thread title is a good one, on the basis that people often make negative comments via social networking sites. I believe a publicly viewable site is not an appropriate place to criticise the manner in which someone does their job. There are appropriate places to register complaints, but it certainly isn't twitter / facebook etc.

As I said earlier, people do need to be careful about what they say, particularly in light of the fact that English defamation law puts the burden of proving the truth of allegedly defamatory statements on the defendant. Think about the implications of this reverse burden of proof for a second. It means if someone sues you for defamation, it is for you to prove that what you said is not defamatory.

It wasn't all that long ago that Sally Bercow found out to her cost that care needs to be taken with regard to what is said online.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/22/sally-bercow-returns-to-twitter-to-apologise-to-lord-mcalpine-4156671/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law

 

[bezzer]

I agree with the fitment of cctv on road vehicles. Drivers of road vehicles are prone to using mobiles while driving for example. You will not find a single train driver using their mobile whilst driving a train in this country.

When you say there are cases where something would have been useful - but is it cost effective ? ATP would have cost hundreds of millions but now we have TPWS which is almost as effective but at a fraction of the cost.

What, and you are saying train driver's don't use mobile phones. Driver's are doing it all the time. And there are cases where people have passed signals at danger and lost their job because they were on their phone.

The Black box will not tell you whether a driver was on his phone, booking his holiday on his I Pad or whatever else driver's get up

 

[A-driver]

What, and you are saying train driver's don't use mobile phones, IPads while driving. Get into the real world. Driver's are doing it all the time. And there are cases where people have passed signals at danger and lost their job because they were on their phone.

The Black box will not tell you whether a driver was on his phone, booking his holiday on his I Pad or whatever else driver's get up to.

Unfortunately driver's take the p**s and can be unprofessional so why cannot companies use CCTV to ensure that they act in a professional. When it happens, driver's will only have themselves to blame.

That post means absolutely nothing unless you can back it up with any evidence for your claims? What incidents in the UK have been caused by drivers using phones or iPads?

There may be the very odd occasion where this happens but it's very very rare. Installing CCTV to catch such things is a huge overreaction to a non existent problem. Some people go into supermarkets and steal chocolate bars by hiding them in their underware but introducing strip searches of every supermarket user to catch such incidents is a huge overreaction and like in cab CCTV is not cost effective and is a huge overreaction to a barely existent problem.

Drivers act professionally, you have no right to make the statements you do, especially without any evidence which clearly you don't have or else you would have included it...

You are just trolling and trying to wind people up on here. Please go away.

 

[jopsuk]

it's very unlikely that even with the somewhat broken state of English libel law that a tweet along the lines of

I saw the driver of the 0656 express applying his makeup at 125mph

could be actionable, even if an outright lie. It fails most of the basic tests

 

[Pugwash]

I can't agree with the reporting of Staff via Twitter, but it can be very useful noting poor maintainance of trains and stations.

 

[Nym]

I can't agree with the reporting of Staff via Twitter, but it can be very useful noting poor maintainance of trains and stations.

Another fun alternative is reporting operational support staff for not knowing every detail of every line...

Someone aparently moaned about me on Twitter about not knowing where some random attraction in Shepard's Bush is, just because I'm talking to a driver at Hammersmith doesn't mean I automatically know every inch of tarmac between there and Barking...

PS: I know a lot of detail about parts of the line, but that's more how the auto signalling system is setup rather than where stuff is...

 

[O L Leigh]

What, and you are saying train driver's don't use mobile phones, IPads while driving. Get into the real world. Driver's are doing it all the time. And there are cases where people have passed signals at danger and lost their job because they were on their phone.

Go on, then. Name one. Just one.

Unfortunately driver's take the p**s and can be unprofessional so why cannot companies use CCTV to ensure that they act in a professional. When it happens, driver's will only have themselves to blame.

I knew it wouldn't take long. Who are these drivers that take the mickey? What are they doing? Have you any evidence to back this up?

It is a disproportionate response, that's why. We are already adequately monitored in our daily duties thanks very much. And if a driver does make a mistake it is normal for their employer to check their phone records for evidence of misuse.

Or do you really think my gaffer wants to spend hours watching CCTV footage of me scratching my arse or picking my nose...?

O L Leigh

 

[DeeGee]

Or do you really think my gaffer wants to spend hours watching CCTV footage of me scratching my arse or picking my nose...?

That's the point, though, isn't it. There's no way that they'll be watching every minute of every driver, so whatever you get on with on your day-to-day will remain with you.

Until such time as someone reports you for using an iPad or phone.

Then your gaffer can watch the footage, see you scratching your arse, and ignore the report.

What do they do currently if a customer complains about you? Call you in? Or just ignore it?

 

[David Barrett]

I can't agree with the reporting of Staff via Twitter, but it can be very useful noting poor maintainance of trains and stations.

So the Fitters are being sucked into the swamp now. If I was involved in the surveillance industry I would be extremely concerned, who would need my cameras when there are thousands of busybodies around with overactive fingers?

 

[A-driver]

That's the point, though, isn't it. There's no way that they'll be watching every minute of every driver, so whatever you get on with on your day-to-day will remain with you.

Until such time as someone reports you for using an iPad or phone.

Then your gaffer can watch the footage, see you scratching your arse, and ignore the report.

What do they do currently if a customer complains about you? Call you in? Or just ignore it?

Sorry but it's still an invasion of my privacy, plus it's only a matter of time before we start getting random downloads on the CCTV-it is exactly what happened with the OTMR-it was originally intended to investigate incidents and is now used routinely.

The cost of installing CCTV would be absolutely huge. And what financial benefit would there be for the company? There is no safety case for CCTV either as I can't think of any incidents which would be prevented by it.

CCTV would, however, almost certainly increase tension between drivers and managers and lead to a less relaxed and therefore less safe approach by drivers. CCTV only shows part of a picture. I can assure you that no train driver anywhere in the world spends their entire working day sitting up straight looking directly out of the windscreen. It's just not possible to do. Your mind wonders, you find yourself looking out the side windows, studying your diagram to check stopping patterns etc. and that could be misread on CCTV as not paying attention. The truth is, however, that we are fully alert even when not focused on the road ahead and do notice restrictive signals etc when our gaze is wandering. Therefore CCTV would prove absolutely nothing. All it could be used for is to portion blame on a driver making assumptions based on what can be seen.

No one has yet come up with any reasons, safety, operational or financial, to warrant spending that much money on installing in cab cameras. All we have are trolls spouting rubbish about drivers routinely using phones and iPads whilst driving which I'm afraid is absolute rubbish and really isn't something which happens.

 

[Tetchytyke]

people often make negative comments via social networking sites. I believe a publicly viewable site is not an appropriate place to criticise the manner in which someone does their job. There are appropriate places to register complaints, but it certainly isn't twitter / facebook etc.

I disagree completely with this. I think raising complaints in a public forum is exactly the appropriate place to do it. Raising things publicly means the company looks into it properly, rather than dusting it under the carpet like they do with so many complaints letters.

Take my gas company. I'd been arguing with them for months about a gas bill, and tweeted about it in frustration. It was fixed that morning. Doing things publicly gets their attention; private letters do not.

If any member of a company's staff (and this goes beyond railway staff) is getting hauled over the coals because of a tweet about them, and with no other evidence, then that is a management failing. You should raise it with the gaffer. But I don't see what's wrong with Twitter enabling complaints about service provision, even if a good proportion of those complaints are weapons-grade bollocks.

I'm not sure where abuse comes into it either. Swearing at the twitter staff is wholly unacceptable, but I don't see very much of that at all; when it happens, the twitter staff normally deal with it well. Look at London Midland's feed as an example of how to do it properly. But most people are just sounding off about the fact that, yet again, their FCC Thameslink train is ten minutes late and short formed.

The only benefit to in-cab CCTV is retrospectively, to find out what happened if an incident did happen. But that can usually be determined through other means, or through the use of black box recorders like on aircraft. Drivers doing things they shouldn't happens- just look at Southall- but installing CCTV seems a bit like overkill for what is a very rare occurrence.

 

[jopsuk]

So the Fitters are being sucked into the swamp now. If I was involved in the surveillance industry I would be extremely concerned, who would need my cameras when there are thousands of busybodies around with overactive fingers?

Is it so wrong to report faulty PA/broken carriage heating/lighting that's on the blink?

 

[Geezertronic]

We are a world full of keyboard warriors now. I would suggest 99% (or more) of the abuse on social media wouldn't be said face to face.

I do despair though looking at the VT Twitter feed when people complain about the smallest thing including "incompetence" due to a delayed or cancelled train during a line block for a suicide in particular. It's almost like "how dare my train be delayed/cancelled because someone decided to jump in front of a train. Why isn't the mess cleaned up quicker"...

:roll:

 

[jopsuk]

for true extreme surveillance at work, there's always Japan.

As far as I understand, part of their system involves the drivers never knowing when an inspector/manager may be sat behind them. Bit much frankly!

 

[chris89]

We are a world full of keyboard warriors now. I would suggest 99% (or more) of the abuse on social media wouldn't be said face to face.

I do despair though looking at the VT Twitter feed when people complain about the smallest thing including "incompetence" due to a delayed or cancelled train during a line block for a suicide in particular. It's almost like "how dare my train be delayed/cancelled because someone decided to jump in front of a train. Why isn't the mess cleaned up quicker"...

:roll:

Main reason i avoid TOC Twitters and Facebook pages sadly, due to how a large of people react. If i was anyone who was involved with a incident such as a Suicide also as the family of the poor person who had to go that far. If i read things such as that i would be disgusted by them.

Only time i've used twitter to say anything was to NR which they gave me the emergency number as to me felt like some rather nasty bumps on the WCML that normally don't feel on the Voyagers.

Chris

 

[AndrewP]

I am not involved in the rail industry but I do specify and manage customer facing activities. As such my comments are as follows:

• I include number of complaints in KPIs but only when substantiated and verified
• Rail is typically a negative perception service i.e. people don't notice when everything goes right but do when it goes wrong meaning you will always get more complaints than compliments
• Twitter should be indicative only - there are not enough characters to provide substantive information

I do complain if I am not happy but I also praise where I have received service beyond what I expect. I do this in the same way in writing by e-mail. For good companies (including all rail companies I have contacted except the rapidly deteriorating East Coast) you get a personal response to praise with an indication of something positive that will happen to the employee in question.

The comments on 'gold stars' is interesting - I believe in the concept if it means that there will be some tangible benefit to the employee responsible e.g. gift vouchers or a small cash bonus. This can work and be appreciated - especially by those on a low wage - but must be more than just a certificate or a pat on the back - even if being told 'well done' is a very positive thing.

 

[David Barrett]

Is it so wrong to report faulty PA/broken carriage heating/lighting that's on the blink?

Faults are one thing but the perception and reporting of what the uninitated brands as poor maintenance, the term used in the post to which I replied, is another.

 

[Monty]

for true extreme surveillance at work, there's always Japan.

As far as I understand, part of their system involves the drivers never knowing when an inspector/manager may be sat behind them. Bit much frankly!

If the Amagasaki rail crash has taught us anything it's not to adopt Japanese working practices and management techniques.

What I find disturbing is people appear to be content with the rapid expansion with this 'big brother' culture of everyone being monitored, where will it end?

 

[carriageline]

Old twitter I suppose can be helpful, for example the East Coast train I was on the other day, every time time the drive applied the brakes, there was strong metal on metal burning/welding smell.

If I did report it (I don't use twitter at all), EC could of took appropriate actions with it, but at the same time, (I know nothing about stock service plans and the like) I'm sure it would of been noticed that evening when it went to depot (again, I doubt every train gets a going over I'm the evening though?)







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bezzer]

That post means absolutely nothing unless you can back it up with any evidence for your claims? What incidents in the UK have been caused by drivers using phones or iPads?

There may be the very odd occasion where this happens but it's very very rare. Installing CCTV to catch such things is a huge overreaction to a non existent problem. Some people go into supermarkets and steal chocolate bars by hiding them in their underware but introducing strip searches of every supermarket user to catch such incidents is a huge overreaction and like in cab CCTV is not cost effective and is a huge overreaction to a barely existent problem.

Drivers act professionally, you have no right to make the statements you do, especially without any evidence which clearly you don't have or else you would have included it...

You are just trolling and trying to wind people up on here. Please go away.

As a professional I know when not to use my phone. Perhaps you should talk to the driver who was dismissed because he was on his phone when he passed a signal at danger at a major junction.

Anyway, you don't have to join in with this conversation if you find it annoying, there are plenty of others for you to comment on. So if you don't mind, I will carry on.

 

[notadriver]

The cab you drive in ? What do you mean ?

 

[bezzer]

The cab you drive in ? What do you mean ?

The train cab that I drive from every day.

 

[A-driver]

If I was allowed to use my mobile phone I would film driver's on their I Pad's from the cab that I drive in. But as a professional I know when not to use my phone. Perhaps you should talk to the driver who was dismissed because he was on his phone when he passed a signal at danger at a major junction.

Anyway, you don't have to join in with this conversation if you find it annoying, there are plenty of others for you to comment on. So if you don't mind, I will carry on.

So you are a driver the are you? And you honestly think that there are a high number of drivers using phones? Sorry but I really do disagree. I drive trains every day aswell and it's certainly not a majority thing at either of the TOCs I have worked in. Infact one of the TOCs I worked for did random phone checks at buffer stops to check they were switched off. The other one we are permitted to leave phones on but on silent and I don't know of any incidents at either caused by phones. I really don't believe you have seen drivers on iPads though. And as for the driver spading a major junction, that is a one off thing and certainly dosnt suggest it happens a lot.

Also, quite how y can actually see people using their phones or iPads in their cabs when you are driving a train past them in the other direction is beyond me, you would have to take a good look to notice any details that small and I'd probably suggest you spend longer worrying about your own train and watching the road ahead and less time peering into other peoples cabs.

 

[carriageline]

If it bothered you that much, why wouldn't you report it to the signaller? Or your control?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bezzer]

So you are a driver the are you? And you honestly think that there are a high number of drivers using phones? Sorry but I really do disagree. I drive trains every day aswell and it's certainly not a majority thing at either of the TOCs I have worked in. Infact one of the TOCs I worked for did random phone checks at buffer stops to check they were switched off. The other one we are permitted to leave phones on but on silent and I don't know of any incidents at either caused by phones. I really don't believe you have seen drivers on iPads though. And as for the driver spading a major junction, that is a one off thing and certainly dosnt suggest it happens a lot.

Also, quite how you can actually see people using their phones or iPads in their cabs when you are driving a train past them in hype other direction is beyond me, you would have to take a good look to notice any details that small and I'd probably suggest you spend longer worrying about your own train and watching the road ahead and less time peering into other peoples cabs.

Actually at 20 mph it is not difficult to see what someone is doing in the other cab, especially as you are looking that way when you acknowledge them.

Just talking from experience mate. You say no, I say yes. The wonders of having different views/experiences and disagreeing. In today's world.

And it may be one incident but shows how easy it is to pass a signal at danger close to protecting a junction with an express travelling at 80 mph.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If it bothered you that much, why wouldn't you report it to the signaller? Or your control?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It don't bother me. I am simply offering up a reason why TOC's might go down the line of installing cameras in cabs.

 

[455driver]

Old twitter I suppose can be helpful, for example the East Coast train I was on the other day, every time time the drive applied the brakes, there was strong metal on metal burning/welding smell.

If I did report it (I don't use twitter at all), EC could of took appropriate actions with it,

Report it to the guard/ train Manager on the train straight away, he will check it and then report it immediately and arrange a travelling fitter to meet the train.

There is no point reporting things like that to Head Orifice, its the traincrew that need to know!

 

[jopsuk]

EC is different, but even where there is a guard on a commuter train (rather than DOO) if it's very busy, or a stock with no inter-unit gangways, it's perfectly possible that you'll never see the guard (unable to pass through).