Twitter-the train driver's enemy

[David Barrett]

While it wasn't me who made the comment earlier, I don't think it creates a very good impression for a driver or, indeed, anybody to have their foot up on the dashboard. It shows a very casual approach to his responsibilities, and one can only wonder whether he discharges that responsibility with the same casual, if not cavalier, manner. After all, appearances count for a lot, and all the more so these days when it appears appearance has very little importance in the minds of many.

So, if we are now content to accept these casual erosions to our hitherto high standards of appearance and presentation, would you like:
your heart surgeon to appear unshaven;
your local police officer to have hippy length hair;
your bus driver to be wearing his uniform cap back-to-front;
your doctor to be lying back in his chair, his feet on his desk, while appearing to listen to your medical history?

I know it is all a question of balance and degree BUT...



...where do you draw the line?

A person collapses in the street, all the Suits walk around and pretend not to see, a group of Punks rush across, render first aid and organise the calling of an ambulance, and some would still say "You've only got to look at them to see what they are".

Honestly the superficial level on which some people operate astounds me at times.

Just an afterthought after that little rant, I notice that Parliament is full (at times) of well dressed people, professional and trustworthy indeed.

 

[KA4C]

And what do you base your criticism on? Sorry but it's one thing to make a complaint but sending a patronising tweet that says 'this guy needs to be trained at how to do his job ' is exactly what winds is up-what right have you to know what training someone needs.

Quite

 

[ECML180]

I manage the facebook page for my local athletics club, thankfully that has no character limits so I'm quite happy to respond to criticism and complains with a full length formal written reply discussing the points for and against that person's view. In the rare case we've got it wrong(or I lose the argument :P ) I advise on the steps we've taken to improve matters.

I'd personally like to see this approach to public complaints, but I appreciate it does take time, especially in a larger organisation!

 

[KA4C]

I'm a fair person...

I will tweet positively and negatively about staff. Based on fact. Most TOCs completely ignore the negative, so I write to the TOC concerned. This is always far worse for an employee. A 140 char tweet normally just says "X at Y needs additional training in Z". I sent a TOC a tweet like that, they said I must write to customer services. That resulted in the member of staff being removed from a specific duty and £25 in RTVs for me. That's because my 140char tweet became 1400 words about someone's incompetence.

You can decide which is worse, but it was definitely the latter wasn't it.

£25 or 30 pieces of silver?

 

[bicbasher]

I'd like to see a coherent policy on what can and can't be discussed on the TOC twitter accounts.

Delays, faults with carriages, units and general enquiries are fine, yet allegations about staff conduct should be dealt with either on the telephone or by email or written letter to the CS with a disclaimer on each account that abuse against staff won't be tolerated. It wouldn't if you're a passenger at a station or on a train.

 

[BrownE]

And what do you base your criticism on? Sorry but it's one thing to make a complaint but sending a patronising tweet that says 'this guy needs to be trained at how to do his job ' is exactly what winds is up-what right have you to know what training someone needs.

I am the customer, if I receive extremely poor customer service due to someone repeatedly swearing, calling me a t**t to another member of staff thinking I and my recording phone couldn't hear him talk about me. Threaten me with a penalty fare when I was trying to purchase a ticket before travel. Tell me that an OBVIOUS permitted route that appears in his journey planner wasn't permitted. Tell me that a his companies leaflet on disruption agreements was wrong CLEARLY doesn't need retraining.

That's one example, the other times I have done it is when RPIs have strongly disagreed with me on mapped routes when they're presented evidence. As the companies RP Standards manager agrees with me, I think I'm in a position to comment that they need retraining, don't you?

as is the glee you seem to express at getting a member if staff removed from their job. why you think a written con mainly is worse for the employer?

This isn't glee, you'll notice that if the tweet was listened to, they would have received some additional customer service advice. As they wanted me to complain in writing, I did, with evidence of this member of staffs incompetence (a recording of the whole conversation). A written complaint is no worse for the company, in my case, it is for the member of staff.

I'm also intrigued how you know they were removed as that isn't normally discussed with the comaplainent and why you think a written con mainly is worse for the employer?

No TOC shares disciplinary information on staff. When you go to a station regularly and notice someone is gone, then ask another member of staff where they are and they tell you that they're working in a less customer-facing role due to "issues" someone bought up.

What I didn't write is that I regularly tweet suggesting staff get gold stars for good customer service, but I assume I can't do that either, because I'm not qualified to give out gold stars.

I will also add that when this member of staff went back to their normal duties, I sent positive feedback to the operator saying that there had been a marked improvement.

 

[ash39]

This reminds me of a program I saw on TV a while ago about Trip Advisor.

People were saying it's ruining businesses because people write bad reviews. People say things they wouldn't say to the hoteliers face and don't give them chance to rectify the problems during the stay. I was somewhere in the middle by the end of it. I think some people get a kick out of bad reviews and most of them were petty and unwarranted, but I do like the fact that you can get reviews and it does mean places can't get away with being average or poor.

This is obviously a different situation but the root problem is similar. Would someone go up to the driver at the next station and say 'Why were you on your phone?' (one of the examples in the OP) . The driver could explain and the whole thing becomes a non-issue. People hiding behind social media is the root problem. It's like the new car-rage.

 

[Deerfold]

While it wasn't me who made the comment earlier, I don't think it creates a very good impression for a driver or, indeed, anybody to have their foot up on the dashboard. It shows a very casual approach to his responsibilities, and one can only wonder whether he discharges that responsibility with the same casual, if not cavalier, manner. After all, appearances count for a lot, and all the more so these days when it appears appearance has very little importance in the minds of many.

So, if we are now content to accept these casual erosions to our hitherto high standards of appearance and presentation, would you like:
your heart surgeon to appear unshaven;
your local police officer to have hippy length hair;
your bus driver to be wearing his uniform cap back-to-front;
your doctor to be lying back in his chair, his feet on his desk, while appearing to listen to your medical history?

I know it is all a question of balance and degree BUT...



...where do you draw the line?

I'm not quite sure what hippy-length hair is.

I may have hair of that length. But it can be unkempt or carefully washed and conditioned.

 

[EM2]

Just an afterthought after that little rant, I notice that Parliament is full (at times) of well dressed people, professional and trustworthy indeed.

As are investment banks. And the Head Offices of a number of companies that avoid tax...

 

[A-driver]

I am the customer, if I receive extremely poor customer service due to someone repeatedly swearing, calling me a t**t to another member of staff thinking I and my recording phone couldn't hear him talk about me. Threaten me with a penalty fare when I was trying to purchase a ticket before travel. Tell me that an OBVIOUS permitted route that appears in his journey planner wasn't permitted. Tell me that a his companies leaflet on disruption agreements was wrong CLEARLY doesn't need retraining.

That's one example, the other times I have done it is when RPIs have strongly disagreed with me on mapped routes when they're presented evidence. As the companies RP Standards manager agrees with me, I think I'm in a position to comment that they need retraining, don't you?


This isn't glee, you'll notice that if the tweet was listened to, they would have received some additional customer service advice. As they wanted me to complain in writing, I did, with evidence of this member of staffs incompetence (a recording of the whole conversation). A written complaint is no worse for the company, in my case, it is for the member of staff.


No TOC shares disciplinary information on staff. When you go to a station regularly and notice someone is gone, then ask another member of staff where they are and they tell you that they're working in a less customer-facing role due to "issues" someone bought up.

What I didn't write is that I regularly tweet suggesting staff get gold stars for good customer service, but I assume I can't do that either, because I'm not qualified to give out gold stars.

I will also add that when this member of staff went back to their normal duties, I sent positive feedback to the operator saying that there had been a marked improvement.

All I'm going to say is that for anyone in any job whatsoever to swear about a customer in earshot and to their face is very unusual and infact unbelievable. That is, of course, unless the customer has done something big enough to wind them up that much. You havnt really given any infimation about what led to the swearing but it definately wasn't unprovoked, sorry but you can't expect anyone to ever believe that anyone would swear about someone without being provoked, especially if they are at work and the person is a customer.

Your post says far more about you as a person than it does about the staff you dealt with! Especially as you decided you needed to record the encounter aswell.

And swearing at a customer isn't incompetence and dosnt require additional training. It's far worse than either of those and as I say certainly wouldn't happen without reason which we will never know without their side of things.

As for 'gold stars'...are you for real? You just come over as incredibly patronising. I go to work as a grown adult and do my job. I do t need some passenger suggesting I get a gold star like I'm a little school kid thanks very much! And no, I certainly don't think you are in a position to comment in staff training needs.

 

[W230]

Especially as you decided you needed to record the encounter aswell.

Hit nail on head. I used to get this in my pre railway days - as if somehow by recording me I was going to change what I said. Er...no.

But it's for the reasons highlighted in this thread that I don't venture on to the feed for my TOC (or any twitter actually). The passenger (customer) always knows best, apparently.

On the whole this post echoes a recurring theme. That people think they know how to do someone else's job/it's menial and they know best. You get it in all walks of life. I take with a pinch of salt.

 

[455driver]

'Gold stars' FFS thats what my 7 year old gets at school!
If a manager tried to give me a 'gold star' I think it would next see daylight when he went to the toilet!

What a wally! :roll:

 

[A-driver]

'Gold stars' FFS thats what my 7 year old gets at school!
If a manager tried to give me a 'gold star' I think it would next see daylight when he went to the toilet!

What a wally! :roll:

I think we are both displaying a poor 'customer focused' attitude on this thread though so our opinions are irrelevant as we probably won't be getting any gold stars...

 

[notadriver]

How many anti-staff threads are running on this forum at the moment ?

 

[A-driver]

How many anti-staff threads are running on this forum at the moment ?

To be fair, this thread isn't anti rail staff just a couple if the posts have clearly been from people with an axe to grind for some reason.

 

[Nym]

I think we are both displaying a poor 'customer focused' attitude on this thread though so our opinions are irrelevant as we probably won't be getting any gold stars...

Awwww, but I want gold stars for doing my job properly...

Although I'm sure some in my equivilant role do get this when working in the softer roles within the company I much prefer the approach of the people I work with by simply showing their appreciation properly...

 

[455driver]

How many anti-staff threads are running on this forum at the moment ?

We have even got a C4 production company canvassing for fodder in their own thread!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we are both displaying a poor 'customer focused' attitude on this thread though so our opinions are irrelevant as we probably won't be getting any gold stars...

I aint 'customer focused' though, I am bank account focused, the rest of it they get for free!

 

[DeeGee]

We have even got a C4 production company canvassing for fodder in their own thread!:

Are they not canvassing for information about complaints about the National Rail "Network" in general, rather than individual members of staff?

FWIW I tweet if I need information, as I've found that FTPE and EC have excellent CS teams on the end of their twitter feeds. And what I want to know is possibly what someone else wants to know as well...

If it's about a specific member of staff, then I send an e-mail. Most of you would be delighted to hear that, so far, that's only ever been to praise staff for what I, as a customer, perceive to be something that they seem to be doing that's over and above what I see as "the norm".

What I want to know is, if I write to your TOC with an e-mail praising you, do you get told about it?

Actually, my biggest fear is that I write to a TOC praising, for instance, a Train Manager showing discretion to a passenger, and that TM being called instead for tea and biscuits for breaking company policy.

 

[bezzer]

I'd like to see a coherent policy on what can and can't be discussed on the TOC twitter accounts.

Delays, faults with carriages, units and general enquiries are fine, yet allegations about staff conduct should be dealt with either on the telephone or by email or written letter to the CS with a disclaimer on each account that abuse against staff won't be tolerated. It wouldn't if you're a passenger at a station or on a train.

As I previously said, I have no problem with passengers using Twitter to get information about delays or complaining generally about lack of information.

What I do object to is people raising issues that they have clearly not investigated first and managers taking their comments at face value and assuming guilt before making their own enquiries. Particularly as this is a safety critical role and people's jobs are at stake.

At the end of the day I am all for camera's in cab which along with the downloads can protect a driver as much as convict them.

 

[O L Leigh]

At the end of the day I am all for camera's in cab which along with the downloads can protect a driver as much as convict them.

No...!!!

There have been malicious and ill-informed complaints about traincrew and others long before there was Twitter. We do not need in-cab CCTV to act as judge and jury in these matters.

O L Leigh

 

[455driver]

What I want to know is, if I write to your TOC with an e-mail praising you, do you get told about it?

Not very often as it takes too much time finding out the crew involved.

Actually, my biggest fear is that I write to a TOC praising, for instance, a Train Manager showing discretion to a passenger, and that TM being called instead for tea and biscuits for breaking company policy.

Quite possibly, although most managers would accept it as a good thing, some dont like discretion being shown as it sets a precedent "he let me off last week, you are a jobsworth etc" plus it costs the TOC money.

 

[martybabes]

No...!!!

There have been malicious and ill-informed complaints about traincrew and others long before there was Twitter. We do not need in-cab CCTV to act as judge and jury in these matters.

O L Leigh

But in-cab CCTV does not do that so there should be no objection to its presence. To have a recording of events as they ocurred will allow an examination to be undertaken for later assessment rather than having to rely on the fallible or skewed memory of witnesses, independent or otherwise.

CCTV will inevitably happen eventually so why not embrace it sooner rather than later?

 

[O L Leigh]

The rail industry itself looked at in-cab CCTV and decided that the cost-benefit analysis did not merit the outlay. This is not a staff objection, although I would certainly object to it. It is unnecessary and is unprecedented.

O L Leigh

 

[notadriver]

But in-cab CCTV does not do that so there should be no objection to its presence. To have a recording of events as they ocurred will allow an examination to be undertaken for later assessment rather than having to rely on the fallible or skewed memory of witnesses, independent or otherwise.

CCTV will inevitably happen eventually so why not embrace it sooner rather than later?

Cctv isn't present in aircraft cockpits. Why do you think it will be fitted to trains?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day I am all for camera's in cab which along with the downloads can protect a driver as much as convict them.

What do drivers need protection from exactly ?

 

[ECML180]

There are other benefits too, there was a company (USA based IIRC) who had a fully integrated CCTV system that 'downlinked' to head office live, using a typical telematics system they identified a crash occurred and viewed the CCTV to check the nature. The driver was unconscious and an ambulance was called by head office, this would not have been possible without in cab CCTV-it was later used to show that he was alert and not to blame. Rare circumstance, but true.

 

[O L Leigh]

An unconscious driver would drop the pedal which would sound an automatic alarm at the controlling signalbox via the GSM-R. As this system will be rolled out nationwide very soon the need for further systems to monitor driver safety and welfare would be unnecessary.

O L Leigh

 

[notadriver]

There are other benefits too, there was a company (USA based IIRC) who had a fully integrated CCTV system that 'downlinked' to head office live, using a typical telematics system they identified a crash occurred and viewed the CCTV to check the nature. The driver was unconscious and an ambulance was called by head office, this would not have been possible without in cab CCTV-it was later used to show that he was alert and not to blame. Rare circumstance, but true.

The on train monitoring recorder (same as a black box in planes) can provide far more data as to the actions or in actions of a driver leading up to an incident. In the event of a driving falling unconscious the DSD would alert the signaller and help would be sent. CCTV has no benefit here.

 

[ECML180]

I apologise I wasn't clear, the driver was knocked unconscious as a result of the accident and this was a road freight company, but I felt it still held relevance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The on train monitoring recorder (same as a black box in planes) can provide far more data as to the actions or in actions of a driver leading up to an incident. In the event of a driving falling unconscious the DSD would laser the signaller and help would be sent. CCTV has no benefit here.

I agree that the on train recorder is equally very useful but as with many things recorded on any 'black box' system not every piece of data is useful, I'm sure there are cases where CCTV could prove useful. My technical knowledge of the railways is poor, so I wasn't aware that the signaller would be made aware.

 

[notadriver]

I apologise I wasn't clear, the driver was knocked unconscious as a result of the accident and this was a road freight company, but I felt it still held relevance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree that the on train recorder is equally very useful but as with many things recorded on any 'black box' system not every piece of data is useful, I'm sure there are cases where CCTV could prove useful. My technical knowledge of the railways is poor, so I wasn't aware that the signaller would be made aware.

I agree with the fitment of cctv on road vehicles. Drivers of road vehicles are prone to using mobiles while driving for example. You will not find a single train driver using their mobile whilst driving a train in this country.

When you say there are cases where something would have been useful - but is it cost effective ? ATP would have cost hundreds of millions but now we have TPWS which is almost as effective but at a fraction of the cost.

 

[ECML180]

I agree with the fitment of cctv on road vehicles. Drivers of road vehicles are prone to using mobiles while driving for example. You will not find a single train driver using their mobile whilst driving a train in this country.

When you say there are cases where something would have been useful - but is it cost effective ? ATP would have cost hundreds of millions but now we have TPWS which is almost as effective but at a fraction of the cost.

I'm not in a position to make even an estimate on cost effectiveness, but I disagree that professional drivers are prone to using mobile phones. Unfortunately some are, but typically bus/coach/lorry companies fitting this sort of equipment are not the cowboys anyway!