• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Tweedbank to Carlisle Borders extension?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BantamMenace

Member
Joined
2 Dec 2013
Messages
573
I havent seen a thread specifically on this so i thought i'd start one.

BBC ran this story today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-27140140

Borders to Edinburgh railway: Carlisle extension would be 'wonderful'

Scottish Borders Council leader David Parker said its eventual extension would be a boost for the local economy and the country as a whole.

He was speaking after First Minister Alex Salmond was in Carlisle where he discussed cross-border relations if Scotland votes for independence.

Mr Parker said he believed the case for another Scotland-England rail link in addition to the East Coast and West Coast lines was compelling.

"A third strategic route up from Carlisle to Edinburgh via the Borders would be a wonderful piece of news," he said.

"It would be good news for the local economy but it would also be very good news for the country in relation to moving passengers and moving freight...."

Surely in the grand scheme of things and all the potential or desired re-openings mentioned on this forum over the years this one has to be pretty near the bottom of the pile.

Its a fair old distance over some challenging terrain and by the sounds of it their talking of using it as a genuine alternative to the WCML in times of disruption so it'd have all the mod-cons, bells and whistles in terms of signalling and OHLE.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
how much of the route has been built on since closure?

I get the impression very little. It's hardly populated at all.

We've had threads on this before though - it would likely cost less than the Borders project due to less enabling work required, but would serve only a handful of places worth giving stations to, and I'm being very generous here:

Melrose - pop. 1,700
St. Boswells - pop. 1,100
Hawick - pop. 14,800
Newcastleton - pop. 800
Longtown - pop. 3,000
Rockcliffe - pop. 700

The 23 mile extension to Hawick might be worth it as it's a major town in the area. The 44 miles further to serve a fraction of that population (with only Newcastleton not being in the general catchment area of Carlisle) is a non-starter unless a diversion route becomes paramount.
 
Last edited:

Tobbes

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2012
Messages
1,242
I'd love to see it, but as TheKnightWho points out, it's only going to be credible if there's a real diversion need. AIUI, there's some building over the route in Hawick itself (the old station was partially on a viaduct over the Teviot) but nothing from Google that looks remotely insurmountable.

The rest of the route is just remote! Did anything ever come of the proposal to relay the southern element to Saughtree / Deadwater to support forestry in Kielder forest? Even if it did, the proposals certainly seemed to be "minimum railway" with little or no signalling and minimum infrastructure. IIRC, it was proposed to operate it as a "long siding" (pretty long siding...) from Carlisle.

So I can see an extension to Hawick, if only politically. But presumably you'd build a Hawick terminus on the north side of the river - a new station that includes bridging the Teviot and opening the route south seems a long shot - after all, HS2 will provide an alternative to the WCML in time.
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,433
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
I get the impression very little. It's hardly populated at all. We've had threads on this before though - it would likely cost less than the Borders project due to less enabling work required, but would serve only a handful of places worth giving stations to.

It does not stop new threads surfacing every so often. Rail-based scenic views are indeed wonderful to behold, but in this general geographical region, on the other side of Carlisle, such an existing railway with such iconic visual offerings exists that is commonly known as the Settle to Carlisle line.
 

Leylandlad

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
118
Extension to Hawick might just happen when the line proves itself a success and people in Hawick realise they're missing out compared to Galashiels :lol:

South of Hawick to Carlisle is a pipe dream sadly.
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,144
Location
Leeds
how much of the route has been built on since closure?
North of Carlisle the original route was severed about 1969 by the A74 (since upgraded to M6) but if restoration happened it would instead turn off the WCML at Mossband Junction and incorporate what is now called Longtown Siding via Bush-on-Esk.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Agree with all said so far, there is absolutely no business case south of Hawick.

Hawick is a decent sized town with the main issue against reopening being the journey time from Edinburgh being slightly too long for regular commuters. Electrification and a semi fast service might change that in future if the 1st stage is a success.

The only other thing I'dd add is that Newtown St Boswells has a population of 2,500 combined with St Boswells and plans for another 900 houses.

It's also home to Borders Council's HQ.

Melrose is also a more important town than its population might suggest and a major tourist centre.

So if a Hawick extension did take place Newtown St Boswells and Melose would both definitely get stations.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
598
Definitely agree too.

Might be better to consider taking a new line through Kelso and Coldstream to Berwick instead maybe?

Or run west parallel to the A72 to Peebles and maybe Biggar and join the west coast line south of Carstairs? Not as direct to Carlisle, but more people on the route and it would connect the area to Glasgow, and obviously Carlisle too if people wanted to go that way.

Build both and cut off Edinburgh entirely. :)

I can just about see Hawick or Jedburgh, but I fear rebuilding south of there seems unlikely, unless it gets built as some sort of brand new high speed line.

Though I think what's needed is to see the first bit opened and work from there
 
Last edited:

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
Agree with all said so far, there is absolutely no business case south of Hawick.

Hawick is a decent sized town with the main issue against reopening being the journey time from Edinburgh being slightly too long for regular commuters. Electrification and a semi fast service might change that in future if the 1st stage is a success.

The only other thing I'dd add is that Newtown St Boswells has a population of 2,500 combined with St Boswells and plans for another 900 houses.

It's also home to Borders Council's HQ.

Melrose is also a more important town than its population might suggest and a major tourist centre.

So if a Hawick extension did take place Newtown St Boswells and Melose would both definitely get stations.

I definitely agree. I think when you're in relatively remote areas then stations in towns with quite low populations are viable - the HoWL is a good example of this.

If it was ever extended south beyond Hawick, I'd expect they would divert it from the old route slightly to serve Langholm (pop. 2,300) as well, which used to be on a branch line. A station at Kingstown Industrial Estate would also be more likely (and useful) than a rural one at Rockcliffe as well. However, a grand total of 6,000 people (and a new station in north Carlisle) does not justify a 40 mile railway.
 
Last edited:

oldman

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,346
And guess who has leant his weight (:)) to the idea:

THE prospect of reopening the entire Waverley rail line between Edinburgh and Carlisle has been raised by Alex Salmond.

The First Minister said he expected the return of trains to the Edinburgh-Tweedbank section next year would be “one of the most enormous tourist line successes we have ever seen” and act as a catalyst for restoring the rest of the historic route.

He said the success of the 30-mile stretch to just south of Galashiels would “calibrate” a feasibility study into rebuilding the remaining 70 miles.

Source

The trains will be fuelled on milk and honey, with which the streets of Scotland will be flowing after 18 September.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Alex ain't daft. That statement very carefully talks up what is under construction while only promising a feasibility study.

I wonder what the study might find is viable? ;)
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,916
Location
Fenny Stratford
Never going to happen. Move along.

(The extension to Hawick MIGHT happen as that remains within the control of the scottish executive)
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
It's never going to happen, there's more chance of the Forth Bridge, Fife Circle plus to Ladybank being electrified then there is of this route going to Carlisle - just my 2 cents ;)
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,916
Location
Fenny Stratford
Whatever - It isnt a real parliament (yet!) ;)

The fact remains the English bit wont ever be built

(I wasnt aware there had been an "official" change of name - every day is a school day!)
 

Buttsy

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2011
Messages
1,374
Location
Hanborough
The only future build I can see south of Galashiels is to Hawick and I would suggest it may be more prudent to go to Jeburgh with either new formation to get close to Kelso (unlikely) or follow the old line with new stations at Melrose, St Boswells, Roxbrugh (as a Kelso Parkway) and Jedburgh with the latter built to allow a future extension to Hawick.

Times would be poor unless electrified and running semi-fast from Galashiels.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,667
I would not say it is never going to happen. Look at the long term forecasting for intermodal freight on the Anglo Scottish route...

Unlikely for at least the next 30 years though.
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
The only future build I can see south of Galashiels is to Hawick and I would suggest it may be more prudent to go to Jeburgh with either new formation to get close to Kelso (unlikely) or follow the old line with new stations at Melrose, St Boswells, Roxbrugh (as a Kelso Parkway) and Jedburgh with the latter built to allow a future extension to Hawick.

Times would be poor unless electrified and running semi-fast from Galashiels.

When deciding whether to extend to Jedburgh (population 4,000), Kelso (population 6,000) or Hawick (population 15,000) I don't think there'll be a terribly long debate about which is the most viable place to head for.

Newtown St Boswells would be a reasonable park & ride location for both Kelso and Jedburgh and is on existing bus routes from the towns, while a Roxburgh station would be down narrow roads with no bus services.

From an economic development point of view the relatively deprived Hawick is also going to be somewhere more in need of transport connection improvements than Kelso or Jedburgh. The Scottish Government uses a tool called SIMD to define economically deprived areas using datazones (areas of about 800 population). In the Scottish Borders there are 8 datazones that fall into the most deprived 20% in Scotland. 2 of these are in Galashiels and 6 are in Hawick. None at all in Kelso or Jedburgh. So Hawick would have a better case for intervention from an economic development perspective.

I agree though that it wouldn't work until at least semi fast services to Gorebridge were implemented, could possibly see it happening before electrification but ideally you'd want that too.

Whether it be Jedburgh, Galashiels or Hawick, it did not enter into the final financial planning scenarios of the current project, for had such a proved demand existed, it surely would have seen any of these settlements included in the current scheme.

As the quote from Alex Salmond said though, any potential extension would be dependent on how the initial route does for a couple of years after opening. If it exceeds expectations then it shows potential for a Hawick service to work, expecially if there is enough demand in Midlothian to justify a 4tph service north of Gorebridge with the 2tph from the Borders running semi fast (probably calling Gorebridge, Eskbank only). I'd imagine you'd want 2-3 years usage data before doing a feasibility study and even then it would be a minimum of 2 years planning, 1 year procurement, 2 years construction so the earliest you could be thinking about it opening is 2023 or so.

There are other Scottish branch reopenings that are higher priority in the meantime. I'd expect Levenmouth, Grangemouth and Penicuik to happen well before Hawick reopened. These all have local authority support and some initial feasibility studies that seem to indicate a decent business case.

Hawick is probably in a second tier of reopenings behind those 3 with places like Bridge of Weir, Banchory and Alloa - Dunfermline. These are schemes which occasionally surface in studies but have no active local authority promotion.

Then you have schemes like St Andrews and Hawick - Carlisle that have an active support group but probably a poor business case.

Whatever - It isnt a real parliament (yet!) ;)

The fact remains the English bit wont ever be built

(I wasnt aware there had been an "official" change of name - every day is a school day!)

Agree south of Hawick is a pipedream. The official name change was part of the negotiations over the Calman proposals (which required a legislative consent order from Holyrood despite being a Westminster initiative). It at least ended the rather petty arguments between Labour and SNP supporters who both insisted on using different wordings in the intervening period (despite the fact the name change to Scottish Government was first proposed by Henry McLeish, Labour Scottish First Minister!)
 
Last edited:

Tobbes

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2012
Messages
1,242
There are other Scottish branch reopenings that are higher priority in the meantime. I'd expect Levenmouth, Grangemouth and Penicuik to happen well before Hawick reopened. These all have local authority support and some initial feasibility studies that seem to indicate a decent business case.

Interesting, Altnabreac - any idea how much Penicuik would cost, and which route it would take (ie, is this a step to reopening the Peebles Loop? Presumably not, given the small population between Penicuik and Gala). If not, would a Penicuik reopening (presumably at 2 tph) then mean 4tph north of Eskbank?

Hawick is probably in a second tier of reopenings behind those 3 with places like Bridge of Weir, Banchory and Alloa - Dunfermline. These are schemes which occasionally surface in studies but have no active local authority promotion.

Is Banchory a realistic proposition? And if you're going to go that far, rebuilding to Aboyne or Dinnet (or even Ballater itself) shouldn't present too many issues, but it would open up the whole of Deeside to Aberdeen commuting as well as tourism.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,183
Location
Oxford
It's never going to happen, there's more chance of the Forth Bridge, Fife Circle plus to Ladybank being electrified then there is of this route going to Carlisle - just my 2 cents ;)

So it's got less than a 100% chance then..? Pretty sure that electrification was a dead-cert CP6 project.
 
Last edited:

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Interesting, Altnabreac - any idea how much Penicuik would cost, and which route it would take (ie, is this a step to reopening the Peebles Loop? Presumably not, given the small population between Penicuik and Gala). If not, would a Penicuik reopening (presumably at 2 tph) then mean 4tph north of Eskbank?

Last news on it was here with a price tag of £150m or so:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/borders-rail-link-150m-plan-for-penicuik-spur-1-2927786

My feeling is that the more likely route to be reinstated is the old Bilston Glen line with stations at Todhills, Loanhead (population 7,000), Roslin (2,000) and then something on the NE outskirts of Penicuik on the eastern side of the A701.

Although you wouldn't get close to Penicuik town centre this way, the town's bus services would pass the station and its a good site for park and ride both for Penicuik and further south (even Peebles etc). You also serve some big employment sites in Roslin and around the Easter Bush / Technopole / Pentlands Science Park areas which could generate decent reverse commuting from Edinburgh.

This gives potential for 4tph calling at Shawfair, Newcraighall and Brunstane. You could speed up services by dropping calls but tricky to know which calls you'd miss. Shawfair is obviously a major development site so you'd want it to increase to 4tph, Newcraighall P&R could also benefit from the increase. And while you might think putting Brunstane calls only on the Penicuik services would be sensible, the potential for Edinburgh College students to get between the campuses at Midlothian (near Eskbank) and Milton Road (near Brunstane) is one of the big potential traffic drivers for the Borders Rail Link.

The Peebles loop options by comparison have several issues, Bonnyrigg / Lasswade are pretty well served by Eskbank so a more central station has limited benefits, the trackbed is built on by Rosewell bypass and then Penicuik station is either very remote from the town (with no bus services and in wrong direction) or on a spur with lots of potentially expensive structures that leads to a site still not in the town centre and constrained for parking and access. Peebles is also just not big enough to justify an expensive reopening of that length.

The things stopping it from happening are that Transport Scotland do not see it as a strategic priority for Scotland and say Midlothian Council / SESTran should be developing it. Midlothian are a small council without much cash or railway expertise and therefore struggle to promote the scheme so stalemate prevails. I suspect it would perform pretty well if it did reopen though.

Is Banchory a realistic proposition? And if you're going to go that far, rebuilding to Aboyne or Dinnet (or even Ballater itself) shouldn't present too many issues, but it would open up the whole of Deeside to Aberdeen commuting as well as tourism.

A few years ago I'd have said no but when you look at the growth in passenger numbers at places like Stonehaven, Inverurie, Dyce and even Insch in recent years it seems like a Banchory line could do well.

Banchory, Milltimber, Peterculter and Cults have a combined population of around 15,000 which is not too bad and you'd presumably have a station in the Garthdee area as well serving SW Aberdeen and the university.

I haven't seen anyone promoting it in recent years but to my mind it could be very successful.

Both lines fulfill Altnabreacs golden rule of a successful rail reopening:
  • Population of 10,000+ within 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
In Scotland basically only Edinburgh/Glasgow/Aberdeen in Scotland qualify as a viable employment centre destination - sorry Dundee :(.

The population sizes drop off very rapidly after Banchory so I don't see any prospect for Aboyne or Ballater. The key tourist attractions (Braemar, hills, distilleries, Balmoral) are beyond the end of the railway anyway so don't think extending to Ballater would help tourism that much more than a Banchory re-opening would.
 
Last edited:

clc

Established Member
Joined
31 Oct 2011
Messages
1,326
.

Hawick is probably in a second tier of reopenings behind those 3 with places like Bridge of Weir, Banchory and Alloa - Dunfermline.

It's frustrating that the Bridge of Weir/Kilmacolm line wasn't a Beeching casualty but was closed as recently as 1983 under the watch of SPT. And of course houses were built on the track bed so re-opening to Kilmacolm is probably a non starter now, though the residents of Kilmacolm could drive to Bridge of Weir easily enough I suppose.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,509
Whatever - It isnt a real parliament (yet!) ;)

The fact remains the English bit wont ever be built

(I wasnt aware there had been an "official" change of name - every day is a school day!)

The English bit should be pretty cheap in the grand scheme of it all as I believe it's only about 10 or 12 miles from carlisle via longtown to the border with some track still in situ anyway serving the nearby MOD depot sidings
 
Last edited:

fegguk

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2012
Messages
181
Location
Hawick
The English bit should be pretty cheap in the grand scheme of it all as I believe it's only about 10 or 12 miles from carlisle via longtown to the border with some track still in situ anyway serving the nearby MOD depot sidings

If the line is ever rebuilt i suspect it would deviate through the MOD depot at Longtown to link with the West Coast Mainline rather than taking the origonal route beyond Longtown. There are no longer open hostilities between the North British and Caledonian to prevent this, unless you consider these to be the combatants in the referendum.

:)
 
Joined
9 Feb 2009
Messages
807
I would not say it is never going to happen. Look at the long term forecasting for intermodal freight on the Anglo Scottish route...

Unlikely for at least the next 30 years though.

That'll be the freight to Mossend & Coatbridge (Strathclyde) then...

Upgrading the G&SW would be a far more viable option.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,667
That'll be the freight to Mossend & Coatbridge (Strathclyde) then...

Upgrading the G&SW would be a far more viable option.

Who is to say terminals will not appear in other places? And i am talking about diversionary routes. If rail is to serve the retail sector we need suitable diversionary routes.
 

Welly

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2013
Messages
669
I stayed in Hawick for a week's holiday during August 2005 and the sheer underpopulation of the area between Hawick and Carlisle convinced me that there is no real case to re-instate the railway from Hawick. I also walked the trackbed from Whitrope to Riccarton Junction which is about 3 miles but has 3 sharp bends in that distance! I can't imagine future freight trains taking that line in preference to the much easier (and wired up) route via Carstairs!
 

Altnabreac

Established Member
Joined
20 Apr 2013
Messages
2,425
Location
Salt & Vinegar
Who is to say terminals will not appear in other places? And i am talking about diversionary routes. If rail is to serve the retail sector we need suitable diversionary routes.

In 20 years time the diversionary and freight route will be the WCML. The main route will be cross border HS2. Although it may well be that HS2 takes a route through the Borders.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top