TVMs not handling cash for security - a solution?

[jon0844]

At Hatfield today, I noticed a TVM with a sticker stating that it might give vouchers instead of change.

Given the discussions elsewhere about stations without ticketing facilities, or only taking cards, could this be a solution? Accepting cash (which is dropped to a safe and secure cash box) but not giving any change - and thus not having to keep a hopper filled up with coins in a more vulnerable position.



I assume from the 'may' bit that when it runs out change it will give vouchers, instead of requiring exact money only (which might be a good thing) but surely this could work at other stations?

 

[The Ham]

Most passengers who use the railways regularly would probably be OK with it, as long as the vouchers do not have to be redeemed at a ticket office!

 

[northwichcat]

Most passengers who use the railways regularly would probably be OK with it, as long as the vouchers do not have to be redeemed at a ticket office!

The sign posted on the machine in the linked picture states to take vouchers to your nearest ticket office within 7 days!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Do they mean exchange it for cash or is it a voucher for travel with the amount of change?

 

[northwichcat]

I assume from the 'may' bit that when it runs out change it will give vouchers, instead of requiring exact money only (which might be a good thing) but surely this could work at other stations?

Maybe on lines with unstaffed stations or with ticket offices that open before the first or close after the last train, it's something conductors should have in case they run out of change.

 

[The Ham]

The sign posted on the machine in the linked picture states to take vouchers to your nearest ticket office within 7 days!

Quite

 

[harz99]

Maybe on lines with unstaffed stations or with ticket offices that open before the first or close after the last train, it's something conductors should have in case they run out of change.

Seems to be following on from developments in the bus industry, where drivers without change on some buses now give a credit ticket from their ticket machine. Only redeemable against another bus ride though.

Vouchers will create a big problem if the TVMs that issue them are not capable of redeeming them as well - stupid idea if that's the case.

 

[jon0844]

Do they mean exchange it for cash or is it a voucher for travel with the amount of change?

I'd hope they can be exchanged for cash, or else people might end up with worthless vouchers if they aren't planning to travel again.

Vouchers will create a big problem if the TVMs that issue them are not capable of redeeming them as well - stupid idea if that's the case.

Yes, that's a good point. I have to assume they'll be printed on ticket stock, so I can't see how the TVM could take these back in. Now, you could have a code printed on them, but that then requires the code to be validated (and quickly marked as used) and could cause all sorts of problems.

I imagine they're testing to see if it can enable the machine to take overpayments even when there's no float, so in those circumstances I suppose it's better than having no way to buy a ticket because you've not got the right money.

No doubt you'll HAVE to accept the voucher too, as if you didn't pay because it was going to give a voucher instead of change, you'd probably now get stung by an RPI because they'd class the machine as being able to accept cash.

 

[Holly]

... Vouchers will create a big problem if the TVMs that issue them are not capable of redeeming them as well - stupid idea if that's the case.

Yes, clearly any machine that issues vouchers should be capable of reading them and accepting them in payment for travel at a later date.
Nothing else makes sense.
And the tourists who travel by rail once only still get stiffed.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I'd be a bit cheesed off to find that a voucher needed to be redeemed at a ticket office, I use the machine to avoid them!

 

[route:oxford]

Given the discussions elsewhere about stations without ticketing facilities, or only taking cards, could this be a solution? Accepting cash (which is dropped to a safe and secure cash box) but not giving any change - and thus not having to keep a hopper filled up with coins in a more vulnerable position.

You're missing the point a bit. When it comes to vending machines, generally speaking, the operator doesn't want the coin - the ideal is for the majority of deposited coin to be "recycled" as change for those who pay by notes.

A "safe and secure coin box"" at a low level would become very heavy, very quickly if the coin wasn't reissued. Difficult for an operative to remove to empty.

 

[maniacmartin]

I would only accept this solution if:

• The vouchers (even if printed on orange stock) were similar to Rail Travel Vouchers drawn on the account of the TOC who operates the TVM and would be accepted for payment at ticket offices and onboard by any TOC
• The vouchers have a life much longer than 7 days (e.g. 12 months)
• Passengers wishing to pay by voucher would not have an obligation to use the TVM, but could pay on-board (unless the TVM can accept these vouchers, which I think is unlikely)
• All ticket offices operated by the same TOC as the TVM would be obliged to exchange these vouchers for cash

Ideally there would also be a Freepost address to post these vouchers to to receive a BACS transfer of the amount, or a cheque.

FCC's 7 day validity is unnacceptable in my opinion

 

[jon0844]

@routexford, that is how it already happens. Only a small float is held up in the machine for change. The 'profit' is banked, so to speak, once the hoppers overflow. I can't speak for every possible machine but expect it to be the case for most.

I know there's a cost to manage money. At least FCC worked out how to dispose of notes by putting them in their cash machines and making them free (instead of charging between £1.50-£2 to use the machines), instead of banking them.

 

[Drsatan]

I would only accept this solution if:

• The vouchers (even if printed on orange stock) were similar to Rail Travel Vouchers drawn on the account of the TOC who operates the TVM and would be accepted for payment at ticket offices and onboard by any TOC
• The vouchers have a life much longer than 7 days (e.g. 12 months)
• Passengers wishing to pay by voucher would not have an obligation to use the TVM, but could pay on-board (unless the TVM can accept these vouchers, which I think is unlikely)
• All ticket offices operated by the same TOC as the TVM would be obliged to exchange these vouchers for cash

Ideally there would also be a Freepost address to post these vouchers to to receive a BACS transfer of the amount, or a cheque.

FCC's 7 day validity is unnacceptable in my opinion

Yes. I think before anything else happens, giving vouchers in lieu of change ought to be standardised across all TOCs. If the worse comes to the worst, I can imagine all TVMs at FCC stations dispensing vouchers which can only be accepted by FCC ticket offices. To me that would seem extremely lazy and a cop-out from bothering to top up the float in the TVM. FGW runs my local station and sometimes the ticket machine will state "exact payment only" at 16:00 on a Tuesday afternoon (when the station's unstaffed).

 

[SS4]

I would only accept this solution if:

• The vouchers (even if printed on orange stock) were similar to Rail Travel Vouchers drawn on the account of the TOC who operates the TVM and would be accepted for payment at ticket offices and onboard by any TOC
• The vouchers have a life much longer than 7 days (e.g. 12 months)
• Passengers wishing to pay by voucher would not have an obligation to use the TVM, but could pay on-board (unless the TVM can accept these vouchers, which I think is unlikely)
• All ticket offices operated by the same TOC as the TVM would be obliged to exchange these vouchers for cash

Ideally there would also be a Freepost address to post these vouchers to to receive a BACS transfer of the amount, or a cheque.

FCC's 7 day validity is unnacceptable in my opinion

Agreed but I'd amend the first point to make them exchangeable for cash or for travel at any ticket office, essentially an IOU

 

[Fincra5]

Maybe on lines with unstaffed stations or with ticket offices that open before the first or close after the last train, it's something conductors should have in case they run out of change.

We kind of do. The avantix can do a Short Change voucher, which I imagine the TVM does something similar, of not the same. Printed on Normal stick stock.

 

[route:oxford]

@routexford, that is how it already happens. Only a small float is held up in the machine for change. The 'profit' is banked, so to speak, once the hoppers overflow. I can't speak for every possible machine but expect it to be the case for most.

I know there's a cost to manage money. At least FCC worked out how to dispose of notes by putting them in their cash machines and making them free (instead of charging between £1.50-£2 to use the machines), instead of banking them.

For security cash handling, it's around £20 to transport every full coin sack. A full coin sack being £20 of bronze, £100 of silver, £250 of 20p or 50p and £500 of £1/£2

 

[barrykas]

The vouchers in question are printed on normal orange stock and headed "Short Change Voucher", and have to be exchanged at a Ticket Office operated by the same TOC within 7 days. DLR ticket machines issue a similar thing, which isn't entirely surprising as they're supplied by the same company.

In general, only 10p and £1 coins are recycled back to the hoppers, everything else drops into the coin box. Similarly, notes go directly to the note box when they're inserted, which is why you get coins back if you abort the transaction.

 

[TheLastMinute]

But the main problem with issuing vouchers is that the machines will still have cash in them and thus a target.

It doesn't matter how secure the strong box is, it's not the loss of the cash that's the major expense but rather the damage to the TVM caused by someone trying to access it. If there's any cash in the TVM, someone will have a pot shot at it, causing £1,000s of damage.

TLM

 

[jon0844]

True, but most people will have some knowledge of where the cash box(es) are - and thus will know it's a lot harder to get to the cash box that's right at the bottom and sealed tight - compared to hoppers that are usually easily accessed to deal with jams/blockages etc.

Of course you might get some dumbass smashing it up, but they could do that to any machine - cash or no cash.

 

[TheLastMinute]

True, but most people will have some knowledge of where the cash box(es) are

I'm afraid that almost all of those that would consider breaking into a TVM wouldn't have a clue where the cash before they was smashed the screen in to have a look. Petty thieves aren't the brightest people, but even they know that if the machine's got "no cash" there's no chance they will get anything from it.

The cash hoppers in FGW's TVMs are already pretty secure. That didn't not the machines at Nailsea and Backwell getting screens smashed in 3 times in the 6 or 9 months that they took cash. In the 2 years since they have been card only, not one attack to my knowledge.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure more machines would be attacked if the cash was easily accessible.

How many idiots are there that would attack a machine repeatedly? I'm not of the opinion that there are THAT many people that would try and rob a TVM. It's most likely the same people/group attacking multiple machines than loads of (dumb) opportunists.

I have no evidence to back that up, but really don't believe it to be likely. At least not around here.

 

[duncanp]

If a ticket machine is unable to give the required amount of change in cash, it could be argued that it is not in working order. This therefore gives the passenger the right to board the train without paying and buy the ticket on board.

Issuing a voucher which can

(a) Only be redeemed against future rail travel

and/or

(b) Must be redeemed within seven days at a ticket office

is tantamount to daylight robbery.

What if you were travelling to an airport to go for two weeks holiday, or if you weren't from the local area and so unable to get to the ticket office in time, or simply didn't know about future rail travel plans?

If I only had a £10 note and the rail fare was £3, I might want to use the remaining £7 for something else. I would be interested to see this issue tested in a court of law.

Imagine what would happen if the automated check outs at Sainsbury's, Tesco's etc. adopted the same policy.

 

[Clip]

I'm afraid that almost all of those that would consider breaking into a TVM wouldn't have a clue where the cash before they was smashed the screen in to have a look. Petty thieves aren't the brightest people, but even they know that if the machine's got "no cash" there's no chance they will get anything from it.

.

Dont be too sure about that. The thieves knew pretty well wehre the cash boxes and hoppers were located when they went on the rampage on Chiltern railways a few years ago. And not just smashing the screens either - properly opening up the doors.

 

[krus_aragon]

For security cash handling, it's around £20 to transport every full coin sack. A full coin sack being £20 of bronze, £100 of silver, £250 of 20p or 50p and £500 of £1/£2

Jeepers! I'm clearly not being paid enough for carrying copper from the bank to the shop I work at. Sounds like I should be on something like £80 an hour...

 

[northwichcat]

We kind of do. The avantix can do a Short Change voucher, which I imagine the TVM does something similar, of not the same. Printed on Normal stick stock.

Northern don't seem to. They either seem to short change the passenger and say they'll get back to them when they have more change and usually forget, otherwise let the passenger short change them e.g. take a £5 note for a £5.10 fare if they have a choice of a £5 note or a £10 note.

 

[jon0844]

Dont be too sure about that. The thieves knew pretty well wehre the cash boxes and hoppers were located when they went on the rampage on Chiltern railways a few years ago. And not just smashing the screens either - properly opening up the doors.

As I would expect. When fruit machines were being attacked (before pubs and clubs realised it was better to empty them overnight) the thieves didn't waste time just bashing them to bits - but going for the weak points to open the cabinets and doors, often avoiding the alarm triggers.

I accept there will be some opportunists in any crime, but most are fairly organised and not as dumb as we'd like to think.

 

[Clip]

Indeed they are - hence why there was such a spate of them a few years abck. Hone your skills then go for broke on the others once discovered. I do believe there are now bollards in front of the one at WEst Ruislip now just because of this.

 

[dvboy]

If a ticket machine is unable to give the required amount of change in cash, it could be argued that it is not in working order. This therefore gives the passenger the right to board the train without paying and buy the ticket on board.

Issuing a voucher which can

(a) Only be redeemed against future rail travel

and/or

(b) Must be redeemed within seven days at a ticket office

is tantamount to daylight robbery.

What if you were travelling to an airport to go for two weeks holiday, or if you weren't from the local area and so unable to get to the ticket office in time, or simply didn't know about future rail travel plans?

If I only had a £10 note and the rail fare was £3, I might want to use the remaining £7 for something else. I would be interested to see this issue tested in a court of law.

Imagine what would happen if the automated check outs at Sainsbury's, Tesco's etc. adopted the same policy.

IIRC by law no-one is obliged to give change if you over pay.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I believe that is indeed true.