Turning Avanti trains

[Dave_D]

I travelled from Manchester to London on Avanti a few days ago.

The train was the wrong way round.

Does anyone know how they turn the train around? Presumably it needs to be over electrified track

TIA

 

[Bletchleyite]

Running the wrong way into Birmingham on diversion is the way it tends to happen (I forget the exact route), though I'm sure there are other ways it can happen that don't as often.

 

[The exile]

The easiest/ most likely place for an Avanti train to end up the wrong way round is at Birmingham. For the East Coast it’s at Newcastle - basically at both stations you can leave from either end and still end up in London. Can be done at Manchester too, but I’m not sure whether Avanti crew would have the knowledge and you’d miss Stockport (at least)
For clarity there are lots of places it can be done by diesels - but not many pure electric options north of the Thames. Central belt of Scotland must now offer quite a few as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The easiest/ most likely place for an Avanti train to end up the wrong way round is at Birmingham. For the East Coast it’s at Newcastle - basically at both stations you can leave from either end and still end up in London. Can be done at Manchester too, but I’m not sure whether Avanti crew would have the knowledge and you’d miss Stockport (at least)

I don't think I've ever heard of that happening. Avanti on Castlefield does occasionally happen but only on diverted Liverpool and Scotland services which wouldn't result in a reverse.

 

[jfollows]

I don't think I've ever heard of that happening. Avanti on Castlefield does occasionally happen but only on diverted Liverpool and Scotland services which wouldn't result in a reverse.

Agreed, it’s not done at Manchester and would be quite convoluted if it were to be done.

 

[800001]

Occasionally I’ve heard of Edinburgh to Euston have to turn at Carstairs for what ever reason, also if departing Glasgow via an alternative route to Motherwell I’m sure I’ve heard they have to reverse?

 

[Class15]

Occasionally I’ve heard of Edinburgh to Euston have to turn at Carstairs for what ever reason, also if departing Glasgow via an alternative route to Motherwell I’m sure I’ve heard they have to reverse?

I’m not sure about that, IIRC they go to Motherwell via Hamilton then towards Carstairs via Mossend and Holytown I think.

 

[The exile]

I’m not sure about that, IIRC they go to Motherwell via Hamilton then towards Carstairs via Mossend and Holytown I think.

In the process using halves of two loops that could be used for actually turning the train - 1 per direction!

 

[The Planner]

Running the wrong way into Birmingham on diversion is the way it tends to happen (I forget the exact route), though I'm sure there are other ways it can happen that don't as often.

Running via Aston in either direction will get you wrong side of New St to correct the formation.

 

[Peter0124]

Some of the London to Glasgow trains needed to divert due to 2 seperate incidents around Carluke in the last week.

They diverted up the Edinburgh bit to Midcalder and reversed along Shotts.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Obviously not Pendolinos, but 805s and previously the Voyagers are occasionally turned at Chester on the triangle.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Agreed, it’s not done at Manchester and would be quite convoluted if it were to be done.

If both the Stoke and Wilmslow routes were closed, they could run via Earlestown, which would bring them in to the wrong end of Piccadilly. But I'm not sure they would want to do it in passenger service - the through platforms are very busy anyway, and I'm not sure they are long enough for a full-length Pendolino

 

[jfollows]

If both the Stoke and Wilmslow routes were closed, they could run via Earlestown, which would bring them in to the wrong end of Piccadilly. But I'm not sure they would want to do it in passenger service - the through platforms are very busy anyway, and I'm not sure they are long enough for a full-length Pendolino

They’re long enough but they don’t do it, save on special occasions when there have been intermittent services over the route.
Of course, as you say, if the route is only used in one direction the set gets turned. If other routes are closed they’d reverse and go back the way they came.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Running via Aston in either direction will get you wrong side of New St to correct the formation.

Indeed - the electrified network in the Birmingham area, and in particular the Stour Valley Line via Aston and Perry Barr, allows a train to leave New Street in either direction to head towards London (the two routes rejoining at Stechford) or towards Stafford (the two routes rejoiing at Wolverhampton)

 

[Halish Railway]

I’ve done the Birmingham New Street to International via Soho and Aston diversion in the past because there was some issue with the front cab of the train, with the train being taken out of service once it got to Euston.

If there is an issue with the cab e.g. and there’s no way of turning the train then they’ll just do a set swap with a train going the other way (yes I have watched that Tom Scott Lateral video).

 

[childwallblues]

If both the Stoke and Wilmslow routes were closed, they could run via Earlestown, which would bring them in to the wrong end of Piccadilly. But I'm not sure they would want to do it in passenger service - the through platforms are very busy anyway, and I'm not sure they are long enough for a full-length Pendolino

I have been on a diverted 11 car Liverpool service which stopped in Platform 14.

 

[390136]

via Aston in/out of New St
WVH-WVH via Soho
Can also do Oxley Chord to/from Stafford and Oxley (805 only)

EDB-GLC/Polmadie:
via Carstairs (FTS Carstairs South Jn)
via Shotts (FTS Braidhurt Loop)
You can also run round Hamilton Circle (see 5D99 on a Sunday which runs as required)

Can also do a reversal around Earlestown in a few different ways.

Can't do Chester or MIA unfortunately

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2025 ==

Obviously not Pendolinos, but 805s and previously the Voyagers are occasionally turned at Chester on the triangle.

Not anymore, hasn't been done since 221 days.

 

[D9006]

Agreed, it’s not done at Manchester and would be quite convoluted if it were to be done.

Only way to do be into Warrington bank quay from Manchester and then back to Liverpool using Earlestown triangle

 

[HUY2ROB]

Excuse an ignorant question from a non user. What does wrong way round mean? What difference does it make?

 

[Peter0124]

Excuse an ignorant question from a non user. What does wrong way round mean? What difference does it make?

It would mean the first class part of the train is at the wrong end. Its meant to be at the London end.

And for example anyone who reserved forward facing seats on the left of the train will end up with a backwards right hand side seat.

 

[childwallblues]

In locomotive hauled days trains were often hauled around the Hamilton Circle for one reason or another usually by Class 85s.

 

[Trainman40083]

In locomotive hauled days trains were often hauled around the Hamilton Circle for one reason or another usually by Class 85s.

I remember being on Motherwell station when a Caledonian Sleeper ECS came through from the Hamilton circle. Presume to turn the coaches round

 

[Mag_seven]

In locomotive hauled days trains were often hauled around the Hamilton Circle for one reason or another usually by Class 85s.

Any available AC Class would be used. Also via Shields Junction though that would have required a reversal.

 

[DelW]

Indeed - the electrified network in the Birmingham area, and in particular the Stour Valley Line via Aston and Perry Barr, allows a train to leave New Street in either direction to head towards London (the two routes rejoining at Stechford) or towards Stafford (the two routes rejoiing at Wolverhampton)

I realise I'm picking up on an old post, but just to note that the route via Aston and Perry Barr is the Grand Junction line - it was the first route towards the north west from Curzon Street.

The Stour Valley line is the later route from the west end of New Street, to Wolverhampton via Smethwick.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Avanti goes to some lengths NOT to turn Pendolinos.
The unit that works the evening Euston-Blackpool returns to Edge Hill depot, via Crewe (reverse).
It doesn't use the shorter route via St Helens as that would turn the set.

TfW regularly runs Mk4 sets ECS Manchester to/from Crewe via Warrington to turn them.

 

[lione87023]

Obviously not Pendolinos, but 805s and previously the Voyagers are occasionally turned at Chester on the triangle.

Turning at Chester hasn’t happened for a few years now for Avanti (possibly not since Virgin days) and certainly an 805 has never turned this way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2025 ==

In locomotive hauled days trains were often hauled around the Hamilton Circle for one reason or another usually by Class 85s.

This can and does still happen occasionally with 390s to turn them.