Tube driver filming himself whilst driving

[danielnez1]

That FOI request really did read as a quite pointed question, and almost like the "when did you stop hitting your wife" trap. "Did you allow this extremely dangerous thing that is a security risk and make trains start falling from the sky?" "No" - you have no control over your staff and they can run wild. "Yes" - you support the behaviour being described as extremely negative.

The questions might have been pointed/specific but the person asking had every right to ask. In a few of his videos he points out staff and also discusses working conditions/polities that probably should have been edited out too.

Looking at the documents provided as part of TfL's reply, the term "personal electric devices" would cover cameras etc, but it is probably a case that their polices need to be further amended to make it more explicit, and possibly situations where it would be allowed (i.e. for press runs, or when a production company is filming a drivers eye view etc.).

And to add further complexity to videos like this, here is TfL's Social Media Policy: https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-1286-1819/P102 (2).pdf. Section 4 is probably the most relevant.

 

[Intermodal]

The questions might have been pointed/specific but the person asking had every right to ask. In a few of his videos he points out staff and also discusses working conditions/polities that probably should have been edited out too.

Looking at the documents provided as part of TfL's reply, the term "personal electric devices" would cover cameras etc, but it is probably a case that their polices need to be further amended to make it more explicit, and possibly situations where it would be allowed (i.e. for press runs, or when a production company is filming a drivers eye view etc.).

And to add further complexity to videos like this, here is TfL's Social Media Policy: https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-1286-1819/P102 (2).pdf. Section 4 is probably the most relevant.

Section 4.6 is very concerning there. The YouTube comments on his last video are basically a TfL hate group. If I was him I'd delete the channel, or disable comments at the very least.

 

[Lockwood]

Sure, the question in general is a fair one. But the way it was posed was very adversarial.

 

[danielnez1]

Sure, the question in general is a fair one. But the way it was posed was very adversarial.

Regardless, IMHO it shouldn't have gone as far as it did. I would have hoped Dale's managers would have been aware of the policies, and asked further up if they were unsure. Social Media policies like the one I've linked to are family common these days, as the amount of public exposure company matters can get exposed to is forever increaing, and the burden of managing such content, and public intetactions too.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

One, if they were to look at the bigger picture, might go as far to say this thread is a window into everything wrong with these forums, regardless of individual views on the matter

 

[bramling]

One, if they were to look at the bigger picture, might go as far to say this thread is a window into everything wrong with these forums, regardless of individual views on the matter

Yes there does seem to be some bitterness directed towards these videos, which I find hard to understand to be honest.

Whilst I’m of the view that they shouldn’t really have been allowed, I nonetheless thought they were well produced and informative.

The problem, as ever, is that there doesn’t seem to have been a mechanism in place for the company to ensure the content was appropriate, and likewise a system for safely producing it. Really these sorts of things need a manager or similar present, both for the filming, and then to go through the content and ensure it’s okay for dissemination. That’s before we get into the realms of making money off the back of doing a job, data protection, etc.

 

[danielnez1]

Yes there does seem to be some bitterness directed towards these videos, which I find hard to understand to be honest.

Whilst I’m of the view that they shouldn’t really have been allowed, I nonetheless thought they were well produced and informative.

The problem, as ever, is that there doesn’t seem to have been a mechanism in place for the company to ensure the content was appropriate, and likewise a system for safely producing it. Really these sorts of things need a manager or similar present, both for the filming, and then to go through the content and ensure it’s okay for dissemination. That’s before we get into the realms of making money off the back of doing a job, data protection, etc.

I enjoyed his videos and appreciated the "behind the sciences" viewpoint, but I did have a growing sense of unease with some aspects of them, and videos from similar channels. Still it is a good opportunity for TfL to fully clarify their position (and possibly other operators too) to avoid issues in the future. As I mentioned before this sort of content could come from TfL themselves, but given time, effort and costs associated with producing such content, and editing/vetting it, and the state of TfL's finances, I don't think this will happen any time soon.

 

[TheTallOne]

No idea how much Dale was making from the YouTube videos, but I do know YouTube take a big cut.

Did it cover the cost of his cameras and microphones, who knows. You could probably argue a contribution towards the computer used for editing perhaps too? Certainly wouldn't make a living from it.

 

[Marty_P]

Probably too late now, but you’d think a better way would be to record with a static camera, and driver interaction added during editing, either by voiceover or onscreen comments as Don Coffey does. If in-cab audio was unacceptable a suitably muffled radio mike could be mounted externally on the cab side. The Hastings Diesel group comment in one of their videos: “Video footage is from an unattended unmonitored forward-facing cab-camera in motor coach 60116 Mountfield. The soundtrack mostly comes from the camera in the leading cab; however, on a few occasions there was radio usage or (at Newbury) chatter via the cab window which we are not permitted to publish, in these cases the soundtrack you hear on this video is instead an accurately synchronised audio recording made in the rear cab.”

 

[philthetube]

There have been a number of SPADs, fail to calls, TPWS activations, over speed and more incidents over the years which have at least partly been attributed to more than one person in a cab causing a distraction.

I would accept this but if that second person is another driver they would point out if the first one was about to make an error.

Its very common to see bus drivers having conversations with other bus drivers while driving, wether this is officially allowed or not, i don't know but it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Surely you can see how it's completely different?

Very easy to kill someone with a bus but difficult/impossible to kill someone with a modern underground train.

 

[Mgameing123]

I tend to agree that management must know about it, and it is surprising. But the flip side of the coin is that he remains well focussed on the work-related task. What’s perhaps more surprising is that from a security point of view it is quite clearly showing people how to drive a train, not sure how wise that is nowadays - though I don’t think he has shown stuff like where to put keys or how to open up the cab.

I believe the reason why manage accepted it is something to do with advertising. His videos are basically a free advert to become a train driver.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Will this indirectly have anything to do with recent Industrial Relations, I would assume Dale is an Aslef member and the safety angle is being used as a stick to hit a union member with by the higher ups when local management didn't seem to have an issue for the last 9 months now all of a sudden it is when strikes were being called.

 

[Mawkie]

Will this indirectly have anything to do with recent Industrial Relations, I would assume Dale is an Aslef member and the safety angle is being used as a stick to hit a union member with by the higher ups when local management didn't seem to have an issue for the last 9 months now all of a sudden it is when strikes were being called.

There is no conspiracy to 'get' union members. How would anyone know which union, if any, he's a member of?

I don't think we need to read too much into anything. LU is famously risk averse, so a verbal agreement by a manager in a depot that Dale could stick a Go Pro on the screen, was superseded by a 'corporate' manager from head office after the FOI brought it to their attention. It's that simple. I'm sure their view is "We can't control that content and don't want LU to be seen in a particular way/ give away secrets/ film people who don't want to be filmed/ hear the voices of radio chatter" and on and on and on.

Dale told me himself that LU have asked him to remove all videos pertaining to driving trains and walking around depots etc. but he is resisting - obviously they don't have an opinion on his other content.

 

[ScottGallagher]

There is no conspiracy to 'get' union members. How would anyone know which union, if any, he's a member of?

I don't think we need to read too much into anything. LU is famously risk averse, so a verbal agreement by a manager in a depot that Dale could stick a Go Pro on the screen, was superseded by a 'corporate' manager from head office after the FOI brought it to their attention. It's that simple. I'm sure their view is "We can't control that content and don't want LU to be seen in a particular way/ give away secrets/ film people who don't want to be filmed/ hear the voices of radio chatter" and on and on and on.

Dale told me himself that LU have asked him to remove all videos pertaining to driving trains and walking around depots etc. but he is resisting - obviously they don't have an opinion on his other content.

If you know him then fair enough , i just thought the timing of this action was too much of a coincidence being the whole.workforce was in dispute, LU have had for the most part, antagonistic staff relations from its inception

 

[Bikeman78]

I haven't seen any discussion of this yet. There is a bloke on YouTube who has recently started posting videos of himself whilst driving trains on the Piccadilly line - both filming the view forward and talking to himself and also filming himself talking to the camera whilst driving.

Presumably someone at LUL has authorised this, but it seems a bit bonkers to me. I think the arguments against it are incredibly obvious and I'm surprised any manager has ever agreed to it. I can't see this being allowed to carry on for long? All it takes is one Daily Mail headline saying that a tube driver is focusing on talking to his YouTube fans instead of actually driving the train.

Dale Charman Travels

A travel Vlog for all to enjoy. Drivers POV of the Piccadilly Line. A mixture of plane and train reviews as well as some of my trips to the likes of Disney and Universal theme parks.

www.youtube.com

I have watched several of his videos and he comes across as very professional at all times. Filming in the cab is not that unusual. There are hundreds of cab views of Dutch trains going back 10 years or so, including one where the driver clearly brakes rather later than normal. I must admit I was sitting on the edge of my seat!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2024 ==

There's a cab ride from Blackfriars to Crayford and Slade Green Depot on Youtube where the driver of an EPB formation chats to someone in the cab mainly about the route. I think it's so long ago that both are safe from discipline!

The chap with the camera has passed away. He did dozens of cab rides in the 1980s. In this video, around 11:50, the driver appears to have misjudged the approach to Nunhead.

 

[wattman]

There are hundreds of cab views of Dutch trains going back 10 years or so, including one where the driver clearly brakes rather later than normal.

And it might be interesting to know that Prorail, the Dutch government organisation responsible for the maintenance of the national railway network infrastructure, makes those cab views easily findable as a layer on the map at SpoorData

This page by ProRail offers also a direct link to a page with a lot of videos maintained by a train driver.

 

[Turtle]

I have watched several of his videos and he comes across as very professional at all times. Filming in the cab is not that unusual. There are hundreds of cab views of Dutch trains going back 10 years or so, including one where the driver clearly brakes rather later than normal. I must admit I was sitting on the edge of my seat!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2024 ==


The chap with the camera has passed away. He did dozens of cab rides in the 1980s. In this video, around 11:50, the driver appears to have misjudged the approach to Nunhead.

What? No graffiti.

 

[Hedge Fund]

Very sad to see the end of these videos. I thoroughly enjoyed them, and Dale seems like a really nice guy and a careful and intelligent driver.

My personal view is that the individual(s) who submitted the FOI to TFL did so purely out of malice to get him into trouble and stop his videos. I genuinely doubt there was anyone actually clutching their pearls and sitting there petrified about it being a genuine safety issue.

 

[TUC]

I have no problem with these videos. However, bearing in mind the recent discussion regarding IPads and other electronic devices for drivers on National Rail services, and the insistence from some that no electronic devices can be allowed in the cab, there does seem an inconsistency (and yes, I know this is the Underground, not National Rail, but the views of some were so vehemently against any kind of electronic equipment whatsoever, there does seem a contradiction.)

 

[fIIsion]

I don't think many Tfl manager are qualified drivers themselves.

Actually many LUL managers were former drivers.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Seems very risky mentioning in videos that permission was given if it hadn't though.

 

[mrg9999]

I liked Dale's videos and didn't think he exposed any extra risk or danger.
This was being discussed on another private UG forum.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Saw this today -
FOI-2479-2425

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Dear TfL, Please provide full unredacted copies of all correspondence within TfL regarding Dale Charman and his YouTube channel. I look forward to hearing from you within 20 days

TFL give the expected request.

 

[DM352]

I liked Dale's videos. If he could add value, it would be his trips abroad to include some transit there rather than say 12 hours in a HK airport hotel.

My own take is some coworker was jealous of him getting a few pennies from Youtube being genuine interested in his job but I know nothing.

 

[Vespa]

I liked Dale's videos and didn't think he exposed any extra risk or danger.
This was being discussed on another private UG forum.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Saw this today -
FOI-2479-2425

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Dear TfL, Please provide full unredacted copies of all correspondence within TfL regarding Dale Charman and his YouTube channel. I look forward to hearing from you within 20 days

TFL give the expected request.

In the second FOI request it certainly looks like Tfl is road blocking you.

 

[Trackman]

Seems very risky mentioning in videos that permission was given if it hadn't though.

Has there been a post about this saying he hasn't got permission? Not having a go, might have missed something.

 

[Egg Centric]

I liked Dale's videos and didn't think he exposed any extra risk or danger.
This was being discussed on another private UG forum.

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Saw this today -
FOI-2479-2425

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

Dear TfL, Please provide full unredacted copies of all correspondence within TfL regarding Dale Charman and his YouTube channel. I look forward to hearing from you within 20 days

TFL give the expected request.

While no doubt the first FOI request was trouble making (whether it was "malicious" or "I have no other way of bringing this thing I'm concerned about to managers attention" who knows) the second FOI request was silly and clearly not in good faith. Either that or the author was incredibly naive.

FOI team must be kinda peed off!

 

[GordonT]

Interesting that whatever concerns that individuals and latterly the powers that be may have had, his video channel still retains the videos filmed prior to the embargo.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This has easily been my favourite YouTube channel this year and not just because it's quite fascinating to get a driver's perspective, but also because dale himself is such a nice bloke and talks to people as if they're human beings and is just all around a nice guy. I'm sorry that he got screwed over in this way and whilst there are arguments and discussions and debates to be had for a long time to come about the safety or otherwise or the morality or otherwise anyone who wanted to see him broke down should hang your head in shame. He made something that is both interesting and often out with the reach of many come to life and did it in a friendly, personable approachable way and was as good and ambassador for transport for London and London generally as any tour guide

 

[GordonT]

This has easily been my favourite YouTube channel this year and not just because it's quite fascinating to get a driver's perspective, but also because dale himself is such a nice bloke and talks to people as if they're human beings and is just all around a nice guy. I'm sorry that he got screwed over in this way and whilst there are arguments and discussions and debates to be had for a long time to come about the safety or otherwise or the morality or otherwise anyone who wanted to see him broke down should hang your head in shame. He made something that is both interesting and often out with the reach of many come to life and did it in a friendly, personable approachable way and was as good and ambassador for transport for London and London generally as any tour guide

Yes I agree entirely with your comments. Fascinating and insightful videos which were presented in a highly "consumer friendly" way which is a skill which London Underground corporately would do well to learn from.

 

[GordonT]

I see that Dale Charman Travels has recently had some new videos added to the YouTube channel regarding Piccadilly Line operations but no longer recording actual driving. The previous driving videos before the sudden halt in production are still available to view.
The link to the YouTube channel to which my post refers is as follows: https://www.youtube.com/@dalecharmantravels8057
The textual description which accompanies the Dale Charman Travels page on YouTube is as follows:

"A travel Vlog for all to enjoy.
Drivers POV of the Piccadilly Line.
A mixture of plane and train reviews as well as some of my trips to the likes of Disney and Universal theme parks."

(For clarity, Drivers POV = Driver's point of view).