TT:120 Three years on... has it been a success?

[61653 HTAFC]

Previous (now locked) thread here:
TT is back (apparently)

We're now three years on from Hornby launching their TT:120 range, and a browse of the retailers shows a small but growing range with other manufacturers also getting involved- including Heljan who initially pulled out in protest at Hornby's choice of launch models clashing with theirs.

Has anyone on here dipped their toes in the water with this scale? There's certainly a lot going for it as a "halfway" point between OO and N, and with the advantage of the track and trains both being the same scale. I've just ordered Hornby's HST set in TT, after seeing an offer in last Saturday's i newspaper which gave a £100 discount on the RRP from Hornby's website. Hopefully they've solved the issue with the track geometry!

By the way if anyone wants to take advantage of that offer while it's still on, they can do so by using the code "TTi-NEWS" at Hornby's online store. There was no expiry date printed in the advertisement, just "while stocks last".

By the way, I'm not affiliated with Hornby or the i newspaper, and do not gain from anyone redeeming the offer. A moderator has approved this being posted.

 

[Trainlog]

I can only comment from an observer's point of view, as I chose to model N gauge over TT:120, but I would like to think it has been a mixed success in terms of introducing a new (ish) scale into the UK railway modelling community.

The scale certainly has merit, as you say, a best of both worlds scenario of OO and N gauge, the locomotives and the rest of the range are of good quality, though the sets are fairly expensive still.

Hornby has certainly taken some interesting risks in terms of new ranges, Hornby live steam, Lyddle End in N gauge, and Reproduction O gauge Bassett-Lowke. Unfortunately, not ranges that had a permanent staying power with Hornby, though these ranges have become cult classics and have decent resale values on eBay. It's certainly not something that modellers are too keen to rush into if TT:120 could go the same way as these ranges.

So if put in the place of 'armchair manager' these are some of the steps I would take

• Have a clear, publicly announced roadmap to other manufacturers about what Hornby intends to produce next in terms of locomotives and stick to it for five years. For example, if Hornby intends to model locos from the Big 4 and BR prototypes only, then other manufacturers can have the opportunity to experiment with producing their own locos, maybe from different eras or different prototypes that could be of interest to modellers.

Personally, I would quite like to see a narrow gauge spinoff with TT:120 representing 3ft gauges, featuring some Isle of Man locos, the Southwold Railway's 'Blyth', and Rye and Camber locos. However, I do admit that these would be seriously niche models.

• More gateway sets. I think something along the lines of a TT:120 Harry Potter set would do wonders for the scale and for railway modelling in general. It's a very popular franchise, and I could see it selling well.

Maybe other prototypes such as the Eurostar class '375', some more tank engine or light tender loco sets, a mail train set if they can get it to work at this scale?

• Investments in example layouts at national rail stations or places like Hamleys can be beneficial. If your target audience is those who wish to have a layout in their house but have limited space for OO gauge, an example layout can help convince them to consider TT:120, which is more space-efficient. At this point, I don't think it would be a bad idea to retire some of the OO gauge example layouts in favour of TT:120 if it means that the public are more likely to see the set as something they can realistically display in their home without taking up much space.

As a bonus point, ensure that maintenance is kept up with these layouts and hire someone to check in on them regularly. This includes keeping the track clean, ensuring the locomotives are properly looked after or swapped in/out, and verifying that the wiring remains functional. These layouts are both creative display pieces and partial adverts; there shouldn't be dead/ derailed and left locos on layouts if you are trying to convince the public to buy the sets.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can only comment from an observer's point of view, as I chose to model N gauge over TT:120, but I would like to think it has been a mixed success in terms of introducing a new (ish) scale into the UK railway modelling community.

The scale certainly has merit, as you say, a best of both worlds scenario of OO and N gauge, the locomotives and the rest of the range are of good quality, though the sets are fairly expensive still.

Hornby has certainly taken some interesting risks in terms of new ranges, Hornby live steam, Lyddle End in N gauge, and Reproduction O gauge Bassett-Lowke. Unfortunately, not ranges that had a permanent staying power with Hornby, though these ranges have become cult classics and have decent resale values on eBay. It's certainly not something that modellers are too keen to rush into if TT:120 could go the same way as these ranges.

So if put in the place of 'armchair manager' these are some of the steps I would take

• Have a clear, publicly announced roadmap to other manufacturers about what Hornby intends to produce next in terms of locomotives and stick to it for five years. For example, if Hornby intends to model locos from the Big 4 and BR prototypes only, then other manufacturers can have the opportunity to experiment with producing their own locos, maybe from different eras or different prototypes that could be of interest to modellers.

Personally, I would quite like to see a narrow gauge spinoff with TT:120 representing 3ft gauges, featuring some Isle of Man locos, the Southwold Railway's 'Blyth', and Rye and Camber locos. However, I do admit that these would be seriously niche models.

• More gateway sets. I think something along the lines of a TT:120 Harry Potter set would do wonders for the scale and for railway modelling in general. It's a very popular franchise, and I could see it selling well.

Maybe other prototypes such as the Eurostar class '375', some more tank engine or light tender loco sets, a mail train set if they can get it to work at this scale?

• Investments in example layouts at national rail stations or places like Hamleys can be beneficial. If your target audience is those who wish to have a layout in their house but have limited space for OO gauge, an example layout can help convince them to consider TT:120, which is more space-efficient. At this point, I don't think it would be a bad idea to retire some of the OO gauge example layouts in favour of TT:120 if it means that the public are more likely to see the set as something they can realistically display in their home without taking up much space.

As a bonus point, ensure that maintenance is kept up with these layouts and hire someone to check in on them regularly. This includes keeping the track clean, ensuring the locomotives are properly looked after or swapped in/out, and verifying that the wiring remains functional. These layouts are both creative display pieces and partial adverts; there shouldn't be dead/ derailed and left locos on layouts if you are trying to convince the public to buy the sets.

You raise some good points here. Display layouts in shops are a great advertisement if they're well maintained, but back when I was a wee lad it was always a pleasant surprise if the layout in Hamleys (or even in whichever branch of Beatties/ModelWorld) was working when I visited. The bigger specialist shops usually have a layout available for testing models, but these are presumably maintained my the shops themselves. I'd always assumed that the same applied to Hamleys, and I can't imagine Hornby under Mike Ashley being prepared to take on the responsibility of maintaining a layout even at that famous London shop.
I can see how TT opens up further options for narrow(er) gauge models, but I'd argue it's a "learn to walk before you try to run" situation. So far Hornby have stuck with TT longer than they did with some of the other ventures, and they benefit from being the first to revive the scale in the UK. When they tried to get into N they were entering an already crowded market which wasn't viewed as needing the "beginners option" role that Hornby fills in OO.

As the range of UK models is still somewhat limited, I could see Hornby pairing up with European manufacturers like Tillig, if a deal that worked for both parties could be hashed out. That could bring about a 373 or 374 Eurostar set without Hornby being fully responsible for the development costs, or simply make Hornby the licenced supplier for the partner brand's European outline models. If Rule One can bridge time periods, then it can cross borders too!
A roadmap of a 5-year plan would certainly help the customer as well as the other manufacturers, but that might be considered a form of collusion from a legal perspective... alas sometimes the law is an ass!

 

[Trainlog]

A roadmap of a 5-year plan would certainly help the customer as well as the other manufacturers, but that might be considered a form of collusion from a legal perspective... alas sometimes the law is an ass!

That's fair and rather annoying in that case, then .

You raise some good points here. Display layouts in shops are a great advertisement if they're well maintained, but back when I was a wee lad it was always a pleasant surprise if the layout in Hamleys (or even in whichever branch of Beatties/ModelWorld) was working when I visited. The bigger specialist shops usually have a layout available for testing models, but these are presumably maintained my the shops themselves. I'd always assumed that the same applied to Hamleys, and I can't imagine Hornby under Mike Ashley being prepared to take on the responsibility of maintaining a layout even at that famous London shop.

Again, it's a shame that it's less likely to happen, would be nice that if a layout is installed there is at least someone on standby that has experience with maintaining layouts and locos.

It isn't just places like Hamleys, Kings X when I went last month, the A4 was derailed on the layout there and no attempt has been made to re-rail it for some time.

I can see how TT opens up further options for narrow(er) gauge models, but I'd argue it's a "learn to walk before you try to run" situation.

It's definitely a down-the-line situation to deal with, by no means a priority. I could see other manufacturers tackling the narrow gauge element as Hornby has tended to just deal with Standard gauge outlines. Still, I would like to see the Isle of Man locos and Rye and Camber tramways have some ready-to-run model locos.

As the range of UK models is still somewhat limited, I could see Hornby pairing up with European manufacturers like Tillig, if a deal that worked for both parties could be hashed out. That could bring about a 373 or 374 Eurostar set without Hornby being fully responsible for the development costs, or simply make Hornby the licenced supplier for the partner brand's European outline models. If Rule One can bridge time periods, then it can cross borders too!

I agree, it would be a good collaboration and have a broad selling appeal with the UK and continental markets.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree, it would be a good collaboration and have a broad selling appeal with the UK and continental markets.

Hornby have form for such things, though in the distant (in model rail terms) past: the first launch of a Eurostar set by Hornby was an HO version made by Jouef of France (who were owned by Hornby at the time, I believe). At least with TT there wouldn't be a discrepancy with scale!

 

[MartinRS]

A post from Widnes Model Centre on 8 January on RmWeb states that they are selling more TT120 than N gauge. A further post by Phil Parker, one of the RM admins, says that other shops have told him the same. Widness models go on to say that, "TT120 is definitely a growing business. Footfall has increased due to TT without a doubt".

In a post on 12 January Widnes Model Centre says

We are selling less N Gauge.

New and existing customers are taking TT120 or switching to it.
OO gauge is still strong.

Delivery from Hornby due today, roughly a 50/50 mix of OO and TT.

Later this week, if l recall correctly, one N Gauge loco due. Customer order.

I did dispose of a modest amount of 00 and bought a TT120 set, along with more locos, rolling stock and track but soon realised that it's going to be a long time before the scale has the range of region and era specific models to suit my requirements so it's back to N gauge for me.

I did contact Graham Farish of Kader Industries a few years ago to let them know that the wheelbase of one of their N gauge locos corresponded to the same wheelbase as a smaller TT120 loco and suggested that they had an easy way into TT120 with only the need to create a bodyshell. The response I received was very negative with a statement that they had no intention of entering the TT120 market. I wonder if they will reassess their stance if TT120 does start to eat into their N gauge market share?

Another post in the same RmWeb thread quotes a Times article which says Hornby's revenue rose from £53.8 million to £56.6 million but that losses before taxation widened from £8.7 million to £11 million. I have wondered that if a big player commits to TT120 once Hornby have established the market then Hornby could be in jeopardy. I know that Peco and a number of small suppliers are in the TT120 market, and that Revolution Trains and Heljan are about to enter the market but none of these are likely to offer a full range of products. A surge of competitively priced TT120 products by the Graham Farish arm of Kader Industries would safeguard their income and potentially damage Hornby's income stream, even putting the future of Hornby in doubt. Surely it would suit the Bachmann arm of Kader Industries if Hornby was to fail?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A post from Widnes Model Centre on 8 January on RmWeb states that they are selling more TT120 than N gauge. A further post by Phil Parker, one of the RM admins, says that other shops have told him the same. Widness models go on to say that, "TT120 is definitely a growing business. Footfall has increased due to TT without a doubt".

In a post on 12 January Widnes Model Centre says

We are selling less N Gauge.

New and existing customers are taking TT120 or switching to it.
OO gauge is still strong.

Delivery from Hornby due today, roughly a 50/50 mix of OO and TT.

Later this week, if l recall correctly, one N Gauge loco due. Customer order.

I did dispose of a modest amount of 00 and bought a TT120 set, along with more locos, rolling stock and track but soon realised that it's going to be a long time before the scale has the range of region and era specific models to suit my requirements so it's back to N gauge for me.

I did contact Graham Farish of Kader Industries a few years ago to let them know that the wheelbase of one of their N gauge locos corresponded to the same wheelbase as a smaller TT120 loco and suggested that they had an easy way into TT120 with only the need to create a bodyshell. The response I received was very negative with a statement that they had no intention of entering the TT120 market. I wonder if they will reassess their stance if TT120 does start to eat into their N gauge market share?

Another post in the same RmWeb thread quotes a Times article which says Hornby's revenue rose from £53.8 million to £56.6 million but that losses before taxation widened from £8.7 million to £11 million. I have wondered that if a big player commits to TT120 once Hornby have established the market then Hornby could be in jeopardy. I know that Peco and a number of small suppliers are in the TT120 market, and that Revolution Trains and Heljan are about to enter the market but none of these are likely to offer a full range of products. A surge of competitively priced TT120 products by the Graham Farish arm of Kader Industries would safeguard their income and potentially damage Hornby's income stream, even putting the future of Hornby in doubt. Surely it would suit the Bachmann arm of Kader Industries if Hornby was to fail?

It's hard to say how the UK scene as a whole would fare if Hornby were to collapse. They're most people's entry point into the hobby, but generally not highly regarded by serious modellers. Their latest announcements do suggest a recognition by Hornby management of their place in the industry though- much more focus on their Railroad range of cheaper, less complex models.
At the moment they're leading the way with TT, and it's (almost) a monopoly for them for now. If the scale catches on in a big way, I'd be surprised to see the Kader brands continue to ignore it