TSSA Strike Crosscountry

[simon7929]

If it compromises safety you don't do it. Who would sack somebody for refusing to compromise safety?

 

[yorkie]

If it comprimises safety you don't do it. Who would sack somebody for refusing to compromise safety?

It's not unsafe. Safety is relative; in reality it is far less safe if people take to the roads instead.

I see you have a bee in your bonnet about these staff, but there is no actual justification for this.

 

[simon7929]

What's people taking to the road got to do with anything?
I can imagine you'd be one of the first to complain if you got trapped in the doors by one of these 'stand ins'

I have 28 years railway experience. I know what goes on and what is currently going on.

 

[Tom Quinne]

How on earth does a non guard learn voyagers and lets say New St to Leeds plus limited diversions in less than 3 weeks ?

Facts could be presented that these PUGS had pretty much zero training and people would still swear blind it was safe.

Being a CSM (Customer Service Manager) some have never been guards or a driver manager does not make uou safe to undertake guards duties, are they medically fit, are they fully rules trained, Route competent, traction competant etc ?

I’ve been around long enough to have seen stuff from management grades playing guard and other non guard roles which would make your toes curl.

But hey ho as long as trains run, who cares ?

 

[Starmill]

Of course not.

Who would sack somebody for refusing to compromise safety?

If it were a contracted duty and you refused do it when instructed to then yes, of course you would be at risk of being dismissed. I'm surprised that needs explanation.

 

[Mojo]

The law allows for employees to refuse to undertake a duty if they reasonably believe a situation to be of serious and imminent danger. Standing in for a guard would not create a situation of serious and imminent danger.

 

[simon7929]

Of course not.

If it were a contracted duty and you refused do it when instructed to then yes, of course you would be at risk of being dismissed. I'm surprised that needs explanation.

But for some of these people it isn't in their contracted duty. They are being offered cash incentives to volunteer. Volunteer being the clue here. And before somebody says 'source please?' I have a copy of the letter.

 

[Jonfun]

How on earth does a non guard learn voyagers and lets say New St to Leeds plus limited diversions in less than 3 weeks ?

Facts could be presented that these PUGS had pretty much zero training and people would still swear blind it was safe.

Being a CSM (Customer Service Manager) some have never been guards or a driver manager does not make uou safe to undertake guards duties, are they medically fit, are they fully rules trained, Route competent, traction competant etc ?

I’ve been around long enough to have seen stuff from management grades playing guard and other non guard roles which would make your toes curl.

But hey ho as long as trains run, who cares ?

Please stop presenting your (incorrect) opinion as fact. Nobody has gone from not competent to fully competent in three weeks. Customer Service Managers manage the Guards and as such have to be fully trained and assessed as Guards themselves, in the same way that Driver managers have to be competent drivers.

 

[Starmill]

In which case I really don't see the problem? It was suggested by BestWestern that, in some cases, staff are required to undertake these duties rather than volunteering to do it. If it's made clear that it's a requirement, most staff will do it if they wish to or no. If they volunteer to do it then I don't see the problem.

As for safety it is the responsibility of the company and the ORR to ensure that all relevant safety legislation is being followed. I make no comment on the fitness of anyone to do that or not.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Exactly as I understand it. The PUGS are simply trained in the bare minimum during three weeks to allow a service to open and close doors/ evacuate safety.

 

[simon7929]

CTMs/DTMS etc are contractually obliged to do so usually with most TOCS. Other grades are offered financial rewards and promises of promotion.

 

[simon7929]

But if a job has a minimum training period for its permanent workers. Why should it be any different for temporary workers?

 

[Jonfun]

Exactly as I understand it. The PUGS are simply trained in the bare minimum during three weeks to allow a service to open and close doors/ evacuate safety.

I don't know where you've got this information from but it isn't correct, sorry.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I don't know where you've got this information from but it isn't correct, sorry.

Enlighten me. Which part of what I said is incorrect.

 

[Timrud]

So the people who stand in are actually already trained and competant, and are just refreshing over the 3 weeks?

Could it be argued that those who are getting defensive on this thread are actually feeling threatened on a personal level rather than having a genuine concern over safety?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Your source for that? I would say quite the opposite actually.

Unfortunately, CrossCountry has built itself rather a negative reputation. According to both posts on the forum and my own personal experience XC train managers are regularly rude.

In addition despite having the longest UK journey under their name and also having the network stretching out the most miles they run the majority of services with too-short Voyagers which have no buffet and are unpopular with many due to their thinly padded seats, underfloor engines and pungent lavatory smell which seems to travel throughout the carriage. In addition they strike regularly and are often late.

This is presumably why most people dislike the company

 

[6Gman]

“Asked” you can say No.

Should you then be at the end of unfair treatment because of that refusaal there are processes that can address it.

If you are a member of a trade union, you should not morally undertake work that is not your core employment whilst other TU members are engaged in legal strike action.

You’ll never be thanked for covering for strike breaking, this 1% pay offer is evidence of that - TMs got/will get upwards of at least 3%.

I would expect there are plenty of "management staff" who will have had nothing to do with covering for guards.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Please stop presenting your (incorrect) opinion as fact. Nobody has gone from not competent to fully competent in three weeks. Customer Service Managers manage the Guards and as such have to be fully trained and assessed as Guards themselves, in the same way that Driver managers have to be competent drivers.

Okay, you know best..

 

[whhistle]

So this is different to the RMT strike from the guards/train mangers.

I'm a bit confused. So these "managers" are part of TSSA, but not part of collective bargening? So other TSSA members chatted with the company and got a deal? I sort of thought when yu were in the union, whatever they got, you got.

How on earth does a non guard learn voyagers and lets say New St to Leeds plus limited diversions in less than 3 weeks ?

They don't.
But this then questions whether guards really need to know the routes off by heart too.

Exactly. You wouldn't. Sometimes you have to do something in your job that you may not be entirely happy with, but if you want to keep your job, you just need to get on with those things.

Which is why striking in this day and age is stupid and does nothing to help anyone.
Makes the punters think "the railway" is terrible.
Makes the staff striking feel... well, I imagine not good.
Makes the management disappointed.

Yet it seems to be an unpopular view (that striking is pointless).
If the conditions were that bad, people simply wouldn't work for them.
But people are weak and do continue to work for companies they don't particularly like.
The driver is always money. Why not add some really great conditions instead? The extra £30 a month isn't really worth it when you could have something more valuable.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Unfortunately, CrossCountry has built itself rather a negative reputation. According to both posts on the forum and my own personal experience XC train managers are regularly rude.

In addition despite having the longest UK journey under their name and also having the network stretching out the most miles they run the majority of services with too-short Voyagers which have no buffet and are unpopular with many due to their thinly padded seats, underfloor engines and pungent lavatory smell which seems to travel throughout the carriage. In addition they strike regularly and are often late.

This is presumably why most people dislike the company

Alas, all inherited from Virgin. On the plus side, XC, freed from virgin, have installed luggage and cycle space by removing the shop. They have also got longer trains by using HST sets that Virgin stood down.

 

[Overspeed110]

I would expect there are plenty of "management staff" who will have had nothing to do with covering for guards.

You would hope so, yes.
But I bet there have been some put under pressure from those higher up the ladder to do so.
Which is a terrible way to treat people.
If I'd been a manager at one of these companies and leant on to become a strike breaker "guard" , their "offer" would have been firmly declined. And if that meant disciplinary action, so be it.

 

[Jonfun]

Enlighten me. Which part of what I said is incorrect.

All of it, I'm afraid. Nobody has gone from not competent to fully competent in three weeks.

 

[XCTurbostar]

All of it, I'm afraid. Nobody has gone from not competent to fully competent in three weeks.

Correct, I never mentioned "Fully Competent" in my original post.. all I was suggesting is that office managers have and are been trained to do the bare minimum to run a service. Overspeed110's post is also correct for WMTrains.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm a bit confused. So these "managers" are part of TSSA, but not part of collective bargening? So other TSSA members chatted with the company and got a deal? I sort of thought when yu were in the union, whatever they got, you got.

But this then questions whether guards really need to know the routes off by heart too.

Which is why striking in this day and age is stupid and does nothing to help anyone.
Makes the punters think "the railway" is terrible.
Makes the staff striking feel... well, I imagine not good.
Makes the management disappointed.

Yet it seems to be an unpopular view (that striking is pointless).
If the conditions were that bad, people simply wouldn't work for them.
But people are weak and do continue to work for companies they don't particularly like.
The driver is always money. Why not add some really great conditions instead? The extra £30 a month isn't really worth it when you could have something more valuable.

Management grades frequently negotiate their own salaries on an individual basis, so their union membership doesn't involve pay deals.

There are very good reasons why Guards require route knowledge.

The idea that strike action 'disappoints the management' really doesn't make it 'stupid'!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Alas, all inherited from Virgin. On the plus side, XC, freed from virgin, have installed luggage and cycle space by removing the shop. They have also got longer trains by using HST sets that Virgin stood down.

The Voyagers had space for four bikes as built. After the Arriva XC refit, they only have space for three.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Alas, all inherited from Virgin. On the plus side, XC, freed from virgin, have installed luggage and cycle space by removing the shop. They have also got longer trains by using HST sets that Virgin stood down.

Indeed, despite being a fan of Virgin I cannot deny that they did make some unpleasant and unpopular changes to the CrossCountry franchise which haven’t exactly made the current franchise holder popular.

 

[221129]

Strike has been called off after a deal has been reached.