TSSA accept TOC pay offer

[Annetts key]

Over the long term, wages have tended to rise on average more than inflation, funded by productivity. That's on average, with lots of variation by industry and type of job. But when inflation goes high, that relationship may go into reverse with increases below inflation. I expect that if and when inflation normalises, wages will rise faster than it which will lead to a degree of catching up.

It could be argued that either ‘there is no normal rate of inflation’ and/or that ‘the normal rate of inflation should be zero’ (to prevent the value of the currency from drifting down over time). But governments generally want there to be between say 1 to 4% inflation for various reasons.

Basically the company used cancelling overtime and rest days to break the deadlock and force a ballot. Short term pain was obviously worth it because it took less than a week between banning overtime and a positive ballot result (notwithstanding three more strike days in between).

That tactic won’t work everywhere. In fact, I would love it, as it would be fun taking the mick out of a manager briefing this to me. Why, because I work very little overtime. Sometimes none in six months. By my choice.

 

[falcon]

A well said summary from someone well "in the know" and ex trade union.....

Maybe this person "Well in the know" can tell us why he concludes that there should be a driver only union?

 

[Facing Back]

Maybe this person "Well in the know" can tell us why he concludes that there should be a driver only union?

I was under the impression that there is a driver-only union currently?

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That tactic won’t work everywhere. In fact, I would love it, as it would be fun taking the mick out of a manager briefing this to me. Why, because I work very little overtime. Sometimes none in six months. By my choice.

Good for you.

I was under the impression that the RMT and ASLEF both had a target of sufficient staffing levels so that there was zero overtime - do I have that right?

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'Politically homeless' is about right - if Labour do win, as seems very likely, it will hopefully give the Conservatives a bit of a wake-up call - or could this perhaps be a time for the LDs to shine. . ?

LD's tp shine? You can try tp polish a turd all you like but...

 

[43066]

I was under the impression that there is a driver-only union currently?

There is. It isn’t the one under discussion on this thread.

Good for you.

I was under the impression that the RMT and ASLEF both had a target of sufficient staffing levels so that there was zero overtime - do I have that right?

Theoretically, but the TOCs (and BR before them) keep asking for overtime agreements. It’s a symbiotic arrangement that works well, except when it doesn’t….

LD's tp shine? You can try tp polish a turd all you like but...

Agreed.

 

[Facing Back]

I think the general consensus amongst economists is that, in the current circumstances, the idea that public sector pay rises risk stoking inflation is a figment of the Tory party’s imagination, especially as most disputes are being settled with below inflation pay rises…

A consensus amongst economists?

My experience working with them is that if you dropped 4 of them at the North Pole then there would be no agreement on which direction was South. Many are brilliant and well educated and experienced - and a blast a dinner parties - most I have come across will readily agree that it is not a precise science.

I can easily find a few who will swear that public sector pay rises will stoke inflation - plus stopping the earth in it's orbit and inducing a plague of locusts o'er the land. However as I recall the Bank of England provided the same warning, and that I'm going to take slightly more seriously.

 

[43066]

My experience working with them is that if you dropped 4 of them at the North Pole then there would be no agreement on which direction was South. Many are brilliant and well educated and experienced - and a blast a dinner parties - most I have come across will readily agree that it is not a precise science.

Like the accountants I’ve worked with, then?

I can easily find a few who will swear that public sector pay rises will stoke inflation - plus stopping the earth in it's orbit and inducing a plague of locusts o'er the land. However as I recall the Bank of England provided the same warning, and that I'm going to take slightly more seriously.

The Bank of England’s snouts are buried in exactly the same trough as the government’s, it would seem…

As Ms. Truss said, if they were truly concerned about inflation, why didn’t they raise interest rates earlier?

Bank of England under fire over £23m bonus payouts

Anger as thousands of Bank staff enjoy ‘performance awards’ when governor had urged other British workers not to demand big rises

amp.theguardian.com

The Bank of England, which has been criticised for underestimating the threat of rising inflation, last year paid out bonuses to its staff amounting to more than £23m, the Observer can reveal.
This bonus pot was at its highest level for at least two years, with more than 4,260 employees receiving performance awards. Andrew Bailey, the bank’s governor, was widely criticised earlier this year after telling Britain’s workers that they should not be asking for big pay rises because inflation had to be kept under control.

 

[Facing Back]

The Bank of England’s snouts are buried in the trough as the government’s, it would seem…

Cheers. I hadn't seen that! I'll have a read through the article

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Theoretically, but the TOCs (and BR before them) keep asking for overtime agreements. It’s a symbiotic arrangement that works well, except when it doesn’t….

There is sometimes a fine line between symbiotic and parasitic - and that really isn't a dig at either side.

My experience is that "fully staffed" is not especially efficient either and leads to "over staffed" whereas having a small amount - perhaps 5-10% of capacity being flexible and turn onable and offable as a gas advert once said - works well - this can be overtime or flexible resourcing depending on the need.

The absolute reliance on signficant amounts of overtime and rest day working seems to have been shown to have weaknesses - being polite, but I wouldn't think aiming for zero overime is the right answer either.

 

[43066]

Cheers. I hadn't seen that! I'll have a read through the article

I mean that article isn’t addressing the issue, specifically.

But it’s surely obvious to anyone who has a rudimentary understanding of economics that sub inflation pay rises for workers who have suffered real terms pay cuts over many years aren’t going to be inflationary?

Tax cuts (and the recent pension increase) are also inflationary, yet they’re being promoted by swathes of the Tory party…

 

[Some guy]

a lot of TSSS members are management teams the same management who aren’t even allowed to strike so they get an extra bonus plus extra money for working strike days. I feel bad for the gate line and booking office members they’ll definitely be shifting over to RMT

 

[Facing Back]

Like the accountants I’ve worked with, then?

I can guarantee that some accountants really are a blast a dinner parties....

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I mean that article isn’t addressing the issue, specifically.

But it’s surely obvious to anyone who has a rudimentary understanding of economics that sub inflation pay rises for workers who have suffered real terms pay cuts over many years aren’t going to be inflationary?

Tax cuts (and the recent pension increase) are also inflationary, yet they’re being promoted by swathes of the Tory party…

I agree with that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

a lot of TSSS members are management teams the same management who aren’t even allowed to strike so they get an extra bonus plus extra money for working strike days. I feel bad for the gate line and booking office members they’ll definitely be shifting over to RMT

TSSS management members are not allowed to strike?

 

[43066]

My experience is that "fully staffed" is not especially efficient either and leads to "over staffed" whereas having a small amount - perhaps 5-10% of capacity being flexible and turn onable and offable as a gas advert once said - works well - this can be overtime or flexible resourcing depending on the need.

The absolute reliance on signficant amounts of overtime and rest day working seems to have been shown to have weaknesses - being polite, but I wouldn't think aiming for zero overime is the right answer either.

The railway tends to run (or not) on the basis of being chronically understaffed, certainly in terms of drivers.

I can guarantee that some accountants really are a blast a dinner parties....

And that’s before you get the secretaries tipsy. And the bored junior auditors who have spent months living in hotels in random locations. There are some aspects of that world I miss, for sure ….

 

[CyrusWuff]

The unite vote closes today, AIUI.

The Unite vote started today, with a closing date of 10th March.

 

[Facing Back]

The railway tends to run (or not) on the basis of being chronically understaffed, certainly in terms of drivers.

I'm getting that message here loud and clear. A number of posters have explained that there has been a huge amount of recruitment and the lengthy training process is starting to show some results in some areas so I guess we wait and see.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

And that’s before you get the secretaries tipsy. And the bored junior auditors who have spent months living in hotels in random locations. There are some aspects of that world I miss, for sure ….

The days where you could drink until breakfast on the company tab but god help you if you are not in the office suited and booted and smelling of roses on time? My secretaries were terrifyingly efficient when sober - get a few gins into them and I run away screaming.

 

[Annetts key]

I was under the impression that the RMT and ASLEF both had a target of sufficient staffing levels so that there was zero overtime - do I have that right?

I can’t comment on ASLEF, but the RMT would prefer sufficient staffing levels and salary rates such that staff don’t have to rely on overtime or rest day working and the companies don’t have lots of unfilled vacancies.

Also, unsurprisingly, the RMT would prefer the use of railway company employed staff rather than rely on labour only contractors or contractors hired to do core or routine work. The RMT does not have a problem with specialist contractors, or occasionally the use of contractors to handle higher than normal/peak work loads.

In terms of the railways relying far too much on overtime or rest day working, read the ‘Investigation into the Clapham Junction Railway Accident’ by Anthony Hidden (QC) (available here, far too long to quote). The excessive overtime and lack of rest by railway employees was identified by Anthony Hidden in his investigation. That’s why the railway now calls the limits on overtime working the ‘Hidden rules’.

TSSS? You mean TSSA I presume…

 

[43066]

I'm getting that message here loud and clear. A number of posters have explained that there has been a huge amount of recruitment and the lengthy training process is starting to show some results in some areas so I guess we wait and see.

From ASELF’s own figures (they represent 97% of the grade) 22% are over 56, 43% are over 50. 25% of the driver population will be retiring within the next five years. So there is an imminent driver shortage, even if current establishment levels are maintained.

The days where you could drink until breakfast on the company tab but god help you if you are not in the office suited and booted and smelling of roses on time? My secretaries were terrifyingly efficient when sober - get a few gins into them and I run away screaming.

I’m assuming you worked at an Alvarez and Marsal type outfit? Where I was (post law firm, pre railway) there was a healthy drinking culture.

“Make sure you get the draft tax opinion to partner X to review, before he disappears to Vivat Bacchus at 1130” (partner X being notable insurance tax expert who brought in goodness knows how much in terms of fee revenue, but was reliably leathered after midday everyday, and reeked of booze and sweat).

Nothing like taking a taxi over the river for a conference with Johnathan Peacock QC, who (memorably) would tell you whatever the client wanted for £5000 per page, and then off to to Simpsons on the Strand for a quick shnifter. Breakfast “up the shard”, dinner at One Lombard St (not all on the same day, lol).

Those were the days!

 

[Facing Back]

I can’t comment on ASLEF, but the RMT would prefer sufficient staffing levels and salary rates such that staff don’t have to rely on overtime or rest day working and the companies don’t have lots of unfilled vacancies.

Also, unsurprisingly, the RMT would prefer the use of railway company employed staff rather than rely on labour only contractors or contractors hired to do core or routine work. The RMT does not have a problem with specialist contractors, or occasionally the use of contractors to handle higher than normal/peak work loads.

In terms of the railways relying far too much on overtime or rest day working, read the ‘Investigation into the Clapham Junction Railway Accident’ by Anthony Hidden (QC) (available here, far too long to quote). The excessive overtime and lack of rest by railway employees was identified by Anthony Hidden in his investigation. That’s why the railway now calls the limits on overtime working the ‘Hidden rules’.

TSSS? You mean TSSA I presume…

Thanks for the feedback. I agree the RMT view is not surprising and understandable.

I will read the link and thanks again - I see that the article is quite lengthy so not tonight - funnily enough it will likely be on a train on Sunday evening - as the bloody thing is non-stop I hope it doesn't scare me too much....

Yes TSSA, I was replying to a post which had the typo in. Its late on a Friday and Barolo have been involved so sorry about my poor sense of humour.

 

[Annetts key]

In terms of the railways relying far too much on overtime or rest day working, read the ‘Investigation into the Clapham Junction Railway Accident’ by Anthony Hidden (QC) (available here, far too long to quote). The excessive overtime and lack of rest by railway employees was identified by Anthony Hidden in his investigation. That’s why the railway now calls the limits on overtime working the ‘Hidden rules’.

I’ve attached the two most relevant recommendations as images.

 

[Bald Rick]

My experience working with them is that if you dropped 4 of them at the North Pole then there would be no agreement on which direction was South.

if they were at the North Pole, they would definitely agree which way was south. They might not all point the same way, though…

a lot of TSSS members are management teams the same management who aren’t even allowed to strike

They are allowed to strike. They usually choose not to.

The Unite vote started today, with a closing date of 10th March.

My mistake, sorry.

 

[Facing Back]

if they were at the North Pole, they would definitely agree which way was south. They might not all point the same way, though…

Haha. I acceot your clarification

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I’ve attached the two most relevant recommendations as images.View attachment 129788View attachment 129789

got them. Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

From ASELF’s own figures (they represent 97% of the grade) 22% are over 56, 43% are over 50. 25% of the driver population will be retiring within the next five years. So there is an imminent driver shortage, even if current establishment levels are maintained.

That sounds rather shocking. I'm going to assume that the resource planning process in the TOCs is well aware of this and is planning recruitment and training accordingly. And I am going to vote LD at the next election.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

I’ve attached the two most relevant recommendations as images.View attachment 129788View attachment 129789

S&T?

 

[JonathanH]

From ASELF’s own figures (they represent 97% of the grade) 22% are over 56, 43% are over 50. 25% of the driver population will be retiring within the next five years. So there is an imminent driver shortage, even if current establishment levels are maintained.

Sounds like a useful way of reducing the workforce of the railway, and therefore costs, by natural wastage, avoiding redundancies.

 

[43066]

Sounds like a useful way of reducing the workforce of the railway, and therefore costs, by natural wastage, avoiding redundancies.

Does it?

In which case it’s funny how I keep getting calls begging me to work overtime, and my TOC regularly can’t cover a day’s work without several drivers doing overtime…

Redundancies really aren’t a concern for the driver grade .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==

That sounds rather shocking. I'm going to assume that the resource planning process in the TOCs is well aware of this and is planning recruitment and training accordingly.

I doubt it.

And I am going to vote LD at the next election.

I won’t be.

 

[Facing Back]

I’m assuming you worked at an Alvarez and Marsal type outfit? Where I was (post law firm, pre railway) there was a healthy drinking culture.

“Make sure you get the draft tax opinion to partner X to review, before he disappears to Vivat Bacchus at 1130” (partner X being notable insurance tax expert who brought in goodness knows how much in terms of fee revenue, but was reliably leathered after midday everyday, and reeked of booze and sweat).

Nothing like taking a taxi over the river for a conference with Johnathan Peacock QC, who (memorably) would tell you whatever the client wanted for £5000 per page, and then off to to Simpsons on the Strand for a quick shnifter. Breakfast “up the shard”, dinner at One Lombard St (not all on the same day, lol).

Those were the days!

A&M were more strategic than we were/are - we focus on operation transformation rather than strategy - and yes I know it is a fine line. Simpsons was our go to place for breakfast as it was 100 yds from the office - and from that you can guess where I worked if you care.

Bachus opened its London Bridge branch after I left a firm based in London Bridge so, whilst I have been to both of them it wasn't an everyday thing. I've been poured out of 1 Lombard Street on more occasions than I care to remember.

I'm almost sure I met Peacock at an event. I will have to ask somebody - either he or I was pissed, if it was me then I probably wasn't speaking - I can't talk for him.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

Does it?

In which case it’s funny how I keep getting calls begging me to work overtime, and my TOC regularly can’t cover a day’s work without several drivers doing overtime…

Redundancies really aren’t a concern for the driver grade .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2023 ==



I doubt it.



I won’t be.

me voting LD was as likely as me believing my previous comment

 

[43066]

A&M were more strategic than we were/are - we focus on operation transformation rather than strategy - and yes I know it is a fine line. Simpsons was our go to place for breakfast as it was 100 yds from the office - and from that you can guess where I worked if you care.

Got you.

Bachus opened its London Bridge branch after I left a firm based in London Bridge so, whilst I have been to both of them it wasn't an everyday thing. I've been poured out of 1 Lombard Street on more occasions than I care to remember.

Got you.

me voting LD was as likely as me believing my previous comment

I thought I detected a certain delicious (almost salicious), sneering sarcasm befitting of a city gent in that comment, but I couldn’t be sure. We need more of that sort of humour on here…

I’m guessing you’re a Lib Dem voter in exactly the same way as being a member of a union makes me a socialist…

 

[dctraindriver]

The railway tends to run (or not) on the basis of being chronically understaffed, certainly in terms of drivers.

I think my TOC at the moment is currently over subscribed at some depots, but as you rightly say many will be coming up to retire in the next 5 years or so. Depends how astute the DFT are for the shortages coming in the next half decade. Overtime certainly isn’t free flowing like it was prior to Covid.

 

[Facing Back]

I think my TOC at the moment is currently over subscribed at some depots, but as you rightly say many will be coming up to retire in the next 5 years or so. Depends how astute the DFT are for the shortages coming in the next half decade. Overtime certainly isn’t free flowing like it was prior to Covid.

is the resource planning in this case down to the DfT or the TOC?

 

[dctraindriver]

is the resource planning in this case down to the DfT or the TOC?

Treasury now I expect.

 

[Facing Back]

Treasury now I expect.

fair enough - replace Dft with government

 

[Annetts key]

S&T?

Signal & Telecom - the engineering department/staff that install, test, maintain, break, repair the signalling and telecommunication equipment on the railway (or for railway businesses).

 

[Facing Back]

Signal & Telecom - the engineering department/staff that install, test, maintain, break, repair the signalling and telecommunication equipment on the railway (or for railway businesses).

thanks