Trouble in North Yorkshire

[Stuwhu]

Five volunteers suspended from North Yorkshire Moors Railway after station group 'carried out unauthorised work'

Five volunteers at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway have been suspended following an investigation into the unregulated activities of a group running one of the line’s historic stations.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

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Five volunteers suspended from North Yorkshire Moors Railway after station group accused of 'carrying out unauthorised work and taking safety risks'​

Five volunteers at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway have been suspended following an investigation into the unregulated activities of a group running one of the line’s historic stations.

Interesting story from the NYMR about a dispute at Levisham station involving allegations of violent threats.

 

[weepingwillowb]

NYMR - Is there an issue at Levisham???

I was at the beautiful and tranquil Station of Levisham on the NYMR today. It’s my second visit in 5 weeks and on my first visit, I detected something very different about the place and its volunteers….as if the enthusiasm had been switched off!! Today, very few volunteers and asking around...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[50002Superb]

Sad state of affairs

 

[John Luxton]

I read this a few minutes ago on the Daily Mail web site. Never been to the NYMR having only ever seen it in TV dramas and documentaries.

First time I have seen reports of police being brought into to investigate internal squabbles at a heritage railway.

However, in recent years there appears to be growing dissatisfaction and unhappiness at various heritage lines where problems have been reported.

West Somerset comes to mind.
Strathspey has been mentioned

I am a fairly recent and distant member of the Lynton and Barnstaple it is clear mailing received this week things seem to be breaking down between trust directors with accusations and counter accusations.

Earlier this year I attended an AGM at another line where displeasure was expressed at some members comments to staff about the post Covid modus operandi.

Perhaps the bigger question here is are the wheels going to come off the heritage movement due to internal society or society Vs operating company squabbles?

It's rather reminiscent of a certain political party which appears intent on pulling itself apart rather than pulling together.

 

[railfan99]

Without reference to the specifics of the media allegations, are these disputes possibly because volunteers feel underappreciated?

Do some paid staff (especially those occupying white collar positions) sometimes throw their weight around and have little or no idea how to treat dedicated volunteers with respect?

 

[50002Superb]

I read this a few minutes ago on the Daily Mail web site. Never been to the NYMR having only ever seen it in TV dramas and documentaries.

First time I have seen reports of police being brought into to investigate internal squabbles at a heritage railway.

However, in recent years there appears to be growing dissatisfaction and unhappiness at various heritage lines where problems have been reported.

West Somerset comes to mind.
Strathspey has been mentioned

I am a fairly recent and distant member of the Lynton and Barnstaple it is clear mailing received this week things seem to be breaking down between trust directors with accusations and counter accusations.

Earlier this year I attended an AGM at another line where displeasure was expressed at some members comments to staff about the post Covid modus operandi.

Perhaps the bigger question here is are the wheels going to come off the heritage movement due to internal society or society Vs operating company squabbles?

It's rather reminiscent of a certain political party which appears intent on pulling itself apart rather than pulling together.

Also the high profile issue at the ELR with the female driver.

 

[Titfield]

Without reference to the specifics of the media allegations, are these disputes possibly because volunteers feel underappreciated?

Do some paid staff (especially those occupying white collar positions) sometimes throw their weight around and have little or no idea how to treat dedicated volunteers with respect?

On a line I have volunteered on, some of the volunteers show a lack of appreciation of health and safety legislation (risk assessments, safe working, working at height regulations) and when challenged can become quite "arsey" or just walk off. The comment "well Im not going to sue anybody" is often used as a defence for unsafe working practices. Paid managers can be put in a very difficult position when they try to enforce both the law and the company's safety management system. Pointing out that fatalities at work and accidents at work have fallen very considerably since legislation was both tightened up and very actively enforced falls on deaf ears.

EDIT for the sake of clarification, volunteers are excellent at following safe working procedures in safety critical operations e.g. lineside. However often they do not perceive the level of risk when working elsewhere for example in building maintenance operations where safety goggles and gloves are now the required ppe.

As regarding feeling under appreciated this seems to be par for the course and endemic across nearly all voluntary organisations. The reality is that volunteers are appreciated the vast majority of the time but this is not necessarily articulated.

In my experience paid staff do treat volunteers with respect but at the end of the day paid staff have a job to do and can not endlessly consult and discuss ad nauseam. Ask 5 volunteers the best way of doing something and you will get 6 answers. As Charlie Croker says in The Italian Job It's a very difficult job and the only way to get through it is we all work together as a team. And that means you do everything I say.

 

[Moonshot]

Also the high profile issue at the ELR with the female driver.

Which particular issue is that?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Which particular issue is that?

Railway Herald :: ELR comes under fire in volunteer harassment row

www.railwayherald.com

Link to Railway Herald article explaining the dispute between volunteer Joanne Crompton and the ELR

 

[Lemmy282]

I think that there will be trouble ahead for many heritage operations and not only on railways. What were volunteer run operations are rapidly becoming professional business operations, employing more paid staff in the last few years. Not that this is a bad thing, with more legislation in place nowadays volunteers are more reticent about taking on safety critical management duties and the mountain of paperwork involved. Where things can go wrong is when management don't appreciate what volunteers actually do and although may have business accumen aren't actually very good at dealing with people and remain distant.
The world of heritage railways will no doubt be very different in ten years time, it is getting more difficult to get volunteers in general, not only on railways but in other museums as well, and I wonder how many will survive when there aren't enough to cover day to running.

 

[Titfield]

Where things can go wrong is when management don't appreciate what volunteers actually do and although may have business accumen aren't actually very good at dealing with people and remain distant.

Except that on Heritage Railways many of the paid staff were previously volunteers (and indeed many continue to do so) and applied for a paid role when the role became available and thus are fully aware of what it is to be a volunteer.

Heritage Railways have had to become more professional as required by the ORR who have on a number of occasions highlighted the health and safety risk to staff (paid or volunteer), passengers and the general public.

Perhaps some volunteers have too high or a different expectation of what paid managers are able or minded to deliver? If a paid manager has hundreds of volunteers who "work" occasionally under their direction the time required to "exchange a quick word" with them on every occasion they volunteer simply absorbs too much of their paid time. This is much the same that teachers experience when you divide the time available by the class size to get the contact time per pupil.

I wonder how many volunteers have recent experience of working in the business world and managing staff. The working world has changed enormously in the past 15 years and with remote communication (email, teams, wfh, multi site etc etc) now the norm, the days of the team cup of tea at the start of work, the shared lunch time in the works canteen and the after work pint in the local have gone forever.

 

[bleeder4]

The more safety training, rules and procedures there are then the less attractive it will be to volunteers. No volunteer who is giving up their free time wants to take on safety-critical duties with mountains of paperwork and red tape. I certainly wouldn't. If I'm in a safety-critical role with loads of rules and procedures that I have to learn by rote and follow to the letter then I would expect to be paid for that role - I certainly wouldn't be doing it for free.

 

[Titfield]

The more safety training, rules and procedures there are then the less attractive it will be to volunteers. No volunteer who is giving up their free time wants to take on safety-critical duties with mountains of paperwork and red tape. I certainly wouldn't. If I'm in a safety-critical role with loads of rules and procedures that I have to learn by rote and follow to the letter then I would expect to be paid for that role - I certainly wouldn't be doing it for free.

It does appear to make volunteering less and less attractive but this is the price that has to be paid to continue enjoying the hobby that many of us participate in.

As others have suggested I think it is only a matter of time before the number of heritage railways starts to fall and the "hobby" begins to shrink.

If you look at some of the work done by Mike Esbester you will see the horrific toll of accidents on railways "back in the day". Whilst modern day heritage railways are hardly comparable it may only take one serious accident and the whole movement will be placed under the spotlight.

I think it is also worth pointing out that comparatively few volunteers now work day to day in a higher risk environment and arguably do not appreciate the risk they place themselves and others in when they come to "work" on a heritage railway. For that reason it is essential that appropriate training is given and reinforced on a regular basis.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think it is definitely a two sided thing. Paid staff often don't appreciate volunteers (or their actions are perceived not to) and volunteers often expect paid staff to do everything because they are paid. Paid staff often number few and are overworked with far wider ranging remits than is possible.

It's a very hard balance which also requires people to compromise, I often see volunteers (I am one) using the well I'll just leave then to force people's hands, it rarely does anything other than leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

 

[Titfield]

I think it is definitely a two sided thing. Paid staff often don't appreciate volunteers (or their actions are perceived not to) and volunteers often expect paid staff to do everything because they are paid. Paid staff often number few and are overworked with far wider ranging remits than is possible.

It's a very hard balance which also requires people to compromise, I often see volunteers (I am one) using the well I'll just leave then to force people's hands, it rarely does anything other than leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

Yes some volunteers (understandably) prefer to do the "nice stuff" which then means that the paid staff have a disproportionate amount of "not nice stuff" to do.

If the way that in general people are becoming less tolerant and more aggressive is carried through to voluntary organisations I can see the volunteer shortage growing and growing to the point that some will close down.

I find the "I do it my way or not at all" statement uttered by some volunteers to be quite childish and can quite understand why some staff (both paid and voluntary) decide they do not wish to work in such an unpleasant atmosphere and vote with their feet.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes some volunteers (understandably) prefer to do the "nice stuff" which then means that the paid staff have a disproportionate amount of "not nice stuff" to do.

If the way that in general people are becoming less tolerant and more aggressive is carried through to voluntary organisations I can see the volunteer shortage growing and growing to the point that some will close down.

I find the "I do it my way or not at all" statement uttered by some volunteers to be quite childish and can quite understand why some staff (both paid and voluntary) decide they do not wish to work in such an unpleasant atmosphere and vote with their feet.

I agree that it is a general outlook on society, I nearly said the same in my post. It's sad really.

 

[Titfield]

I agree that it is a general outlook on society, I nearly said the same in my post. It's sad really.

It is very sad indeed.

 

[trebor79]

The more safety training, rules and procedures there are then the less attractive it will be to volunteers. No volunteer who is giving up their free time wants to take on safety-critical duties with mountains of paperwork and red tape. I certainly wouldn't. If I'm in a safety-critical role with loads of rules and procedures that I have to learn by rote and follow to the letter then I would expect to be paid for that role - I certainly wouldn't be doing it for free.

This. When I volunteered 25 years ago we learnt on the job and were passed for firing and driving by a volunteer (ex BR traction inspector) who was shall we say, not particularly fussy. Just as I was going off to university formal training and rules started to come in and it was offputting in the way it was imposed and delivered.

If you look at some of the work done by Mike Esbester you will see the horrific toll of accidents on railways "back in the day". Whilst modern day heritage railways are hardly comparable it may only take one serious accident and the whole movement will be placed under the spotlight.

I think it is also worth pointing out that comparatively few volunteers now work day to day in a higher risk environment and arguably do not appreciate the risk they place themselves and others in when they come to "work" on a heritage railway. For that reason it is essential that appropriate training is given and reinforced on a regular basis.

And also this.
I was very nearly killed in a shunting accident at the same place as above. Still gives me a cold sweat whenever it comes to mind.

I think it's how the training is delivered that puts people off at times. It needs to be done in a way that isn't just a facsimilie of the sorts of courses they have in their paid job. That doesn't mean it cant or shouldn't be rigorous. It's a tough circle to square.

The bottom line is if a serious incident occurs, it's the responsible railway management up in the dock, and volunteers cannot override the statutory responsibilities they or the management have by saying "I'm not bothered and I won't sue".

 

[Titfield]

I meet very few people who welcome training unless (a) they get paid for attending (b) it increases their pay or their chance of promotion and a pay rise.

When training is "refresher" or mandatory "health and safety" attendees are negative from the get go. No matter how the trainer tries to engage or make it interesting or appealing, there is a mountain to climb.

There are only three absolute certainties in life: death, taxes and the irritation of attending training courses.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

Yes some volunteers (understandably) prefer to do the "nice stuff" which then means that the paid staff have a disproportionate amount of "not nice stuff" to do.

If the way that in general people are becoming less tolerant and more aggressive is carried through to voluntary organisations I can see the volunteer shortage growing and growing to the point that some will close down.

I find the "I do it my way or not at all" statement uttered by some volunteers to be quite childish and can quite understand why some staff (both paid and voluntary) decide they do not wish to work in such an unpleasant atmosphere and vote with their feet.

I've read about the NYMR, The Strathspey and heard about a few other HR's where there are rumblings beneath the surface, usually appertaining to volunteers.
I was talking to a friend of mine who volunteers at a railway and he said one of the things that gets up his nose is that there is precious little courtesy these days and the simple use of "thank you" to volunteers by those "in charge".
I would agree, I used to volunteer when I lived further south on a HR. When I started it was really good, you felt appreciated, even contributed to materials out of your own pocket.
But a change at the top with one or two obnoxious types and the "fun" went out of it, because you really felt taken for granted.
Volunteers are so precious. Yes they have to managed and they cant do what they like, however equally you should not treat them as a lack lustre commodity. These people are the lifeblood of our hobby and should be treat as such.

 

[Titfield]

I am beginning to wonder if somewhat unusually Heritage Railways and other voluntary organisations are highlighting what is going on in the wider world.

By that I mean courtesy is rapidly disappearing across life in general. In normal life there is little we can do. However in voluntary organisations volunteers almost uniquely can "highlight" this by simply walking away complaining about being taken for granted.

Because this problem seems to be suffered by many heritage railways it seems to be something with a deeper cause than a few "obnoxious types". After all heritage railways do not set out to recruit obnoxious types into paid managerial roles.

I do wonder if on some heritage railways the positivity and general feel good factor of making progress has been replaced by a malaise caused by the realisation that just keeping the "show in the road" is becoming tougher as each year passes. Is that influencing both volunteer and paid staff behaviour?

 

[ChristopherJ]

Reading the article, it seems the volunteers thought they had free reign of the station group and NYMR senior management had no power to intervene - resorting to threats of violence to protect their home turf.

Glad to see the Levisham Station Cartel has been disbanded, Mexico drug lords eat your heart out...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I meet very few people who welcome training unless (a) they get paid for attending (b) it increases their pay or their chance of promotion and a pay rise.

When training is "refresher" or mandatory "health and safety" attendees are negative from the get go. No matter how the trainer tries to engage or make it interesting or appealing, there is a mountain to climb.

There are only three absolute certainties in life: death, taxes and the irritation of attending training courses.

I deliver training courses on a HR, for my sins, and I've noticed a marked change in attitude with younger members really keen to come on them learn and feel like they are progressing.

We try to link our safety courses to a ladder with our equivalent of PICOP at the top.

It does help somewhat. As others say, hard thing to manage and our way is not universally successful!

 

[Titfield]

I deliver training courses on a HR, for my sins, and I've noticed a marked change in attitude with younger members really keen to come on them learn and feel like they are progressing.

We try to link our safety courses to a ladder with our equivalent of PICOP at the top.

It does help somewhat. As others say, hard thing to manage and our way is not universally successful!

Generalising I know,but younger members of staff see the value in training and embrace learning opportunities. I think this is driven by an appreciation that skills rapidly become dated and possessing skills / not possessing skills can have career and earning impacts. There is also an appreciation by younger people that skills learnt are transferrable and that good quality training costs money so they are well advised to embrace it. By contrast older members of staff place the value of experience higher and do not appreciate how quickly skills become dated and the benefits that training can deliver.

I work in a field where CPD Continuous Professional Development is required and I have to say the vast majority accept this and embrace it as being part of that profession.

 

[The exile]

I wonder how many volunteers have recent experience of working in the business world and managing staff. The working world has changed enormously in the past 15 years and with remote communication (email, teams, wfh, multi site etc etc) now the norm, the days of the team cup of tea at the start of work, the shared lunch time in the works canteen and the after work pint in the local have gone forever.

Which is why it is all the more important that such opportunities are still there in the voluntary sector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2023 ==

I deliver training courses on a HR, for my sins, and I've noticed a marked change in attitude with younger members really keen to come on them learn and feel like they are progressing.

Could it also be that a training course actually offers a chance to meet real people?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Which is why it is all the more important that such opportunities are still there in the voluntary sector.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2023 ==


Could it also be that a training course actually offers a chance to meet real people?

It could be but in general they meet people more doing the work. I do Pway/civil engineering so they meet people on gangs.

 

[Sulzer:1999]

I've read about the NYMR, The Strathspey and heard about a few other HR's where there are rumblings beneath the surface, usually appertaining to volunteers.
I was talking to a friend of mine who volunteers at a railway and he said one of the things that gets up his nose is that there is precious little courtesy these days and the simple use of "thank you" to volunteers by those "in charge".
I would agree, I used to volunteer when I lived further south on a HR. When I started it was really good, you felt appreciated, even contributed to materials out of your own pocket.
But a change at the top with one or two obnoxious types and the "fun" went out of it, because you really felt taken for granted.
Volunteers are so precious. Yes they have to managed and they cant do what they like, however equally you should not treat them as a lack lustre commodity. These people are the lifeblood of our hobby and should be treat as such.

After nearly 40 years of working at various heritage railways, I’ve had my fill of the ‘Obnoxious types’ & the lack of courtesy. In fact I would say that the more you sometimes do (first there in the mornings, last to lock up), familiarity breeds contempt.
One thing I learned quickly as a 15 year old was that just because you are getting involved with a group of fellow railway enthusiasts, there is no guarantee that they will like you, or let you into the ‘club’. Alas, those types of morons that you thought you left behind at the school gates are very much to be found on preserved railways.
There have always been empire builders wanting to have it their way all the time, I say the use of social media amplifies their presence to the near total exclusion of other volunteers. The FB pages of a railway I was formerly involved with gives the impression that everything is done by one individual with his gurning fizog in every picture.
That said, volunteer committee members can have a hard time with some of the strange characters who volunteer, who usually have nothing else in life but their railway, oblivious to those of us in the real world with work & families to consider.
Nowadays I mainly just do paid contract work & get my occasional railway fix that way, avoiding the well of despair that seems to be the thing when you go too often.

 

[yorksrob]

After nearly 40 years of working at various heritage railways, I’ve had my fill of the ‘Obnoxious types’ & the lack of courtesy. In fact I would say that the more you sometimes do (first there in the mornings, last to lock up), familiarity breeds contempt.
One thing I learned quickly as a 15 year old was that just because you are getting involved with a group of fellow railway enthusiasts, there is no guarantee that they will like you, or let you into the ‘club’. Alas, those types of morons that you thought you left behind at the school gates are very much to be found on preserved railways.
There have always been empire builders wanting to have it their way all the time, I say the use of social media amplifies their presence to the near total exclusion of other volunteers. The FB pages of a railway I was formerly involved with gives the impression that everything is done by one individual with his gurning fizog in every picture.
That said, volunteer committee members can have a hard time with some of the strange characters who volunteer, who usually have nothing else in life but their railway, oblivious to those of us in the real world with work & families to consider.
Nowadays I mainly just do paid contract work & get my occasional railway fix that way, avoiding the well of despair that seems to be the thing when you go to often.

Sounds a bit too much like work.

If you don't have to, why would you ?

 

[Sulzer:1999]

Sounds a bit too much like work.

If you don't have to, why would you ?

Believe you me, I have pondered many times over the years why do I bother? But at the end of the day, I’m too much of a hands on railway enthusiast, I need my fix now & again. Like all here who work on a heritage line, for better or worse, we have our passion & enthusiasm for our own particular lines, in fact I’ll always be passionate about the railways I’m no longer involved with, glad to hear of positive updates, etc. But I am definitely not enthusiastic about spending any time with some of the zany characters of times past (I’m sure they perhaps think the same of me!).
As I said, I have just the right balance in terms of railway enjoyment & not over-doing it.

 

[yorksrob]

Believe you me, I have pondered many times over the years why do I bother? But at the end of the day, I’m too much of a hands on railway enthusiast, I need my fix now & again. Like all here who work on a heritage line, for better or worse, we have our passion & enthusiasm for our own particular lines, in fact I’ll always be passionate about the railways I’m no longer involved with, glad to hear of positive updates, etc. But I am definitely not enthusiastic about spending any time with some of the zany characters of times past (I’m sure they perhaps think the same of me!).
As I said, I have just the right balance in terms of railway enjoyment & not over-doing it.

I must admit, I did some work doing up a heritage unit. It was a four year project and they were some of the best years of my life.

I was fortunate enough to have a very experienced boss on the restoration and we were largely left to get on with it. As you allude to, it was the perfect balance of trust and acknowledgement that we weren't experts, but we were willing to get on with it.