Trivia: Underground National Rail stations in London

[ijmad]

I went to a friend's house at Essex Road at the weekend and wanted to check whether the wikipedia claim that "it is the only deep level underground station in London served solely by National Rail trains" checks out. I think it does, just about, although it's quite a specific claim because:

• Shadwell and Rotherhithe are both deep level stations serving Overground trains, but are not National Rail stations as this part of the East London Line is owned by TfL. Are they still National Rail trains when serving these stations? I'm not sure.
• City Thameslink certainly serves National Rail trains, but isn't deep level.
• Moorgate and Old Street have underground platforms for National Rail trains, but are also served by Underground trains.
• St Pancras is not solely a deep level station, although its Thameslink platforms are at a deep level. It is also (sort of) served by Underground trains at Kings Cross St Pancras, although far more of the tube station is underneath Kings Cross than underneath St Pancras.
• This claim will cease to be true in 2018 when Crossrail opens. At the very least, Canary Wharf Crossrail will be a separate and deep level station serving National Rail trains, most of the others are more integrated in to tube stations though.

Did I get it right? Anything I've forgotten? Does the claim hold up?

 

[TheDavibob]

I think "deep level" is probably referring to Deep Tube, as opposed to subsurface (which St P and City Thameslink are), with the old Northern City Line (that is, the Moorgate line) using properly bored, deep-level tunnels.

 

[ijmad]

I think "deep level" is probably referring to Deep Tube, as opposed to subsurface (which St P and City Thameslink are), with the old Northern City Line (that is, the Moorgate line) using properly bored, deep-level tunnels.

I thought the new Thameslink tunnels at St Pancras were bored... maybe I'm thinking of the Canal Tunnels

 

[TheDavibob]

Yes, they probably are (I confused myself, there), given they were built concurrently with the Canal Tunnels and HS1. That said, they aren't particularly deep, with the lines running into subsurface lines to the south and not really being underground at all in the north. Similarly, one could argue that Heathrow (Connect/Express) checks the same boxes. I wouldn't put them down as "deep level", though, personally.

 

[ijmad]

Yes, they probably are (I confused myself, there), given they were built concurrently with the Canal Tunnels and HS1. That said, they aren't particularly deep, with the lines running into subsurface lines to the south and not really being underground at all in the north. Similarly, one could argue that Heathrow (Connect/Express) checks the same boxes. I wouldn't put them down as "deep level", though, personally.

Good thinking on the Heathrows. All three are physically separate stations to their tube counterparts, I think?

 

[Kite159]

Good thinking on the Heathrows. All three are physically separate stations to their tube counterparts, I think?

Pretty much, only at Terminal 5 are the platforms near each other

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the new Thameslink tunnels at St Pancras were bored... maybe I'm thinking of the Canal Tunnels

As you suggest, only the canal tunnels were newly bored. The station box for the new Thameslink station opened out the ground around the original tunnels, but the route hasn't fundamentally changed.

 

[ijmad]

Pretty much, only at Terminal 5 are the platforms near each other

So I suppose the question is, does it still count as National Rail if the line isn't owned by Network Rail? Similar question, whether it's BAA (Heathrow) or TfL (East London Line)...

 

[Mikey C]

Are Shadwell nor Rotherhithe deep level anyway? Both are as near the surface as many NR stations in London!

 

[telstarbox]

Overground is part of National Rail.

 

[TheDavibob]

Are Shadwell nor Rotherhithe deep level anyway? Both are as near the surface as many NR stations in London!

How far from the Thames Tunnel are Rotherhithe and Wapping? I can vaguely remember Rotherhithe station facing into the tunnel, but I was only there briefly and may be mistaken. With the tunnel quoted at 23m below river level (at high tide) this is comparable to deep tube depths.

 

[30907]

How far from the Thames Tunnel are Rotherhithe and Wapping? I can vaguely remember Rotherhithe station facing into the tunnel, but I was only there briefly and may be mistaken. With the tunnel quoted at 23m below river level (at high tide) this is comparable to deep tube depths.

At least one is very close, but if "deep level" is taken in the LT/LUL sense already mentioned - so about tunnelling methods - then neither meet the criterion.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Overground is part of National Rail.

As far as the TOC is concerned, yes. But the actual East London Line itself? It was London Underground, don't forget - so was the track given over to Network Rail, or is it still owned by TfL?

 

[LLivery]

So I suppose the question is, does it still count as National Rail if the line isn't owned by Network Rail? Similar question, whether it's BAA (Heathrow) or TfL (East London Line)...

The Heathrow Express isn't classed as an National Rail service, however, I believe Heathrow Connect is. That being said I don't believe NR railcards are valid into the airport and you can't buy tickets to stations other those served directly at Heathrow. London Overground and TfL Rail are indeed National Rail services (even says so on the TfL website) although they don't like branding it as such. However, Surrey Quays to Dalston/Highbury (ELL)? is owned by TfL.

Canada Water - Whitechapel are all sub-surface stations, parts of the platforms at Shadwell get a lot of rain. I believe City Thameslink was built open air, however, the air rights sold and now has an office block above it. St Pancras Thameslink is deep, officially the tube is a separate station. That being said, Eurostar isn't a National Rail service.

So the claim seems to be correct, until as you say Crossrail opens and Canary Wharf and Woolwich open. For the country as a whole, only the Mersey Circle and Glasgow Argyle I can think of.

 

[pdeaves]

As far as the TOC is concerned, yes. But the actual East London Line itself? It was London Underground, don't forget - so was the track given over to Network Rail, or is it still owned by TfL?

Ownership hasn't changed and nor has regulation. You get the odd situation where LO has a licence to operate umpteen stations but not those on the East London Line itself as they are not under the same regulatory regime.

 

[jopsuk]

Thames Tunnel is barely "deep level" itself- it flooded several times during construction. I wouldn't class the stations at the ends as "deep level", but that's really down to how you want to define it

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as the TOC is concerned, yes. But the actual East London Line itself? It was London Underground, don't forget - so was the track given over to Network Rail, or is it still owned by TfL?

Still TfL infrastructure. The sectional appendix shows the various change of ownership mileages. However signalling operations are subcontracted to Network Rail. Northern boundary is on the Dalston West Curve. Southern boundary for the ELL is beyond new Cross Gate platform 1 for the down line, and just south of the flyover for the up line. Somewhat further south than the previous station at Surrey Quays.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The report here

During the morning of Friday 8 March 2013, a train driver reported that flood water was flowing from the roof of a railway tunnel north of Old Street station near central London. The driver of an out-of-service passenger train was asked to examine the tunnel at low speed and check for damage. The driver stopped short of the water flow and reported that two large drills (augers) had come through the tunnel wall and were fouling the line ahead of his train.
The augers were being used for boring piles from a construction site about 13 metres above the top of the tunnel. The operators of the piling rig involved were unaware that they were working above an operational railway tunnel. Its position was not shown on the site plan, or on any map available to either the developer or the local planning authority. As a consequence, Network Rail was not consulted during the planning application stage and was unaware of the construction activity.

sheds some interesting light on history of the tunnel in the area of Essex Road.

 

[rebmcr]

The report here

sheds some interesting light on history of the tunnel in the area of Essex Road.

That's not history, it's still News.

 

[matt_world2004]

Stations in the crossrail core are not going to be part of the national rail network. Indeed I believe the plan is for most of them to be staffed and maintained by london underground and not MTR it is going to be a similar set up to the east London line

 

[AM9]

... but that's really down to how you want to define it

Agreed. St Pancras Thameslink isn't really deep either, - its platforms are at about the same level as the Kings Cross Met/Circle lines, Farringdon and slightly shallower than City Thameslink which are all sub-surface.

 

[swt_passenger]

Agreed. St Pancras Thameslink isn't really deep either, - its platforms are at about the same level as the Kings Cross Met/Circle lines, Farringdon and slightly shallower than City Thameslink which are all sub-surface.

As mentioned by someone else earlier, City Thameslink is not strictly subsurface, depending on what side you consider the reference. The up platform emergency doors exit onto Farringdon Rd street level if you ever see them opened, they can be seen up certain side streets on Google Streetview. Of course it seems to be underground when you are in it, but thats mainly because you enter at a raised street level and go down to the platforms.

 

[edwin_m]

Stations in the crossrail core are not going to be part of the national rail network. Indeed I believe the plan is for most of them to be staffed and maintained by london underground and not MTR it is going to be a similar set up to the east London line

If I recall correctly Paddington was separate enough from the Underground to be treated as a separate station, Canary Wharf is a separate station and Woolwich doesn't have any Underground links at all. All the other underground (small U) stations are so closely integrated with Underground (big U) stations that most of the staff were going to be LU except possibly a few Crossrail staff at platform level. This was the plan a few years back but it may have changed since.

 

[edwin_m]

That's not history, it's still News.

If I recall correctly the report contains some interesting historical information in the process of trying to work out why the builders didn't realise there was a tunnel underneath their property.

To confuse things further, there's a safety definition of sub-surface and deep level stations which determines things like mandatory staffing levels and provision of fire alarms.

 

[thenorthern]

There were plans for a Clay Cross station in the tunnel under the town however the Midland Railway realised it would be impossible to ventilate it so it was never built.

The fact that the majority of stations were built by the Victorians in the days of steam I think is a reason why there are very few stations in tunnels.

 

[ijmad]

The up platform emergency doors exit onto Farringdon Rd street level if you ever see them opened, they can be seen up certain side streets on Google Streetview.

I'm intrigued... got a link?

 

[southern442]

Still TfL infrastructure. The sectional appendix shows the various change of ownership mileages. However signalling operations are subcontracted to Network Rail. Northern boundary is on the Dalston West Curve. Southern boundary for the ELL is beyond new Cross Gate platform 1 for the down line, and just south of the flyover for the up line. Somewhat further south than the previous station at Surrey Quays.

The point is, though, they are London Overground stations. London Overground is national rail, so they are national rail stations that are underground.

 

[ijmad]

The point is, though, they are London Overground stations. London Overground is national rail, so they are national rail stations that are underground.

I'd always thought the lack of National Rail logo at these stations was a giveaway as to their status, but I just checked and it seems like having just the Overground roundel is now the pattern for stations where only Overground services call, as Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street don't show the National Rail logo either, despite very obviously being Network Rail owned...

 

[swt_passenger]

The point is, though, they are London Overground stations. London Overground is national rail, so they are national rail stations that are underground.

I was responding to the immediately preceding point as to whether they were Network Rail or TfL infrastructure. That is a separate matter to whether they are National Rail services...

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm intrigued... got a link?

Bear Alley:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...4!1sE6oSlZATEeTuyJcJ9rZ7vw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Old Fleet Lane:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...4!1sIwLnyN930x-t28Atbr_VDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

St Georges Court, (down side):

https://goo.gl/maps/6xjxaCkMPMq

There's about half a dozen accesses altogether you can find once you get the idea...