TRIVIA: Under-rated buses

[nw1]

Yup, they were indeed a Leyland (and later Volvo!) product Solent Blue Line had a good few, picture below! So'ton City Bus soldiered on with their Atlanteans into Firstgroup ownership and they never really bought the next generation of deckers, First eventually replacing the Atlanteans with their standard Volvo low floor single deckers.

The Lynxes were also regular performers on the 727 & 747 Portsmouth express services!
(Image below shows Olympian H734DDL)

Ah yes, the Olympians are coming back to me now! Thanks.

I do remember First CityBus ordering a substantial number of new double deckers in the year 2000 (Wxxx EOW registrations) which ran many of the more 'premium' routes (Atlanteans with Lynxes and the 'Eco Bus' single-deckers still dominating other routes). Not sure what model they were or how long they lasted - ISTR them not lasting as long as one might expect.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I always thought the Leyland Titan was under rated, had the delays in production been sorted, it would have been more than just LT that would have got them in bigger batches, but even after all that, when London decided to get shot of them, they lasted well into the 90s and 2000s with other operators. I remember Nu Venture in Medway had a few

I don't think the Titan was under-rated. Everyone knew what a good product it was - in fact, it was too good to the point of over engineering which was its problem in comparison to simpler and cheaper buy Metrobuses and Titans. That and the well documented productivity challenges and long lead times.

However, whilst it was then a non standard type in fleets like GMPTE and WMPTE and led to its early exit from those fleets, the Titan was well regarded and indeed, on inheriting numbers with East London and Selkent, Stagecoach redeployed them around the country.

Ah yes, the Olympians are coming back to me now! Thanks.

I do remember First CityBus ordering a substantial number of new double deckers in the year 2000 (Wxxx EOW registrations) which ran many of the more 'premium' routes (Atlanteans with Lynxes and the 'Eco Bus' single-deckers still dominating other routes). Not sure what model they were or how long they lasted - ISTR them not lasting as long as one might expect.

The W-EOW deckers were Volvo B7TLs with Alexander ALX bodies and whilst they may have left Southampton, they went on to an extended life in Dorset with three of them still working as open toppers in Weymouth and now into their 22nd year.

 

[Strathclyder]

Cardiff Bus had 36 of them and bought a few more second hand. They are the longest serving fleet to date running from 1982 to 2007. The low floor Dennis Darts almost caught up (1997 to 2022) although no individual vehicle came close. The S reg Darts went a few years ago.

Ah yes, the Cardiff examples completely slipped my mind for some reason. The pre-owned examples came from Merseyside, didn't they?

 

[Bikeman78]

Ah yes, the Cardiff examples completely slipped my mind for some reason. The pre-owned examples came from Merseyside, didn't they?

Yes they had 12 from Merseyside, fleet numbers 437 to 448, and eight from Fife, fleet numbers 449 to 456. The Mersey ones didn't last long, apart from the two painted blue and dedicated to the UWIC campus runs. They chucked out on service runs during the holidays. They lasted more or less to the end, as did the Scottish examples. The latter leaked like a sieve. There was usually water sloshing up and down the left hand side of the top deck when it rained.

They were crazy machines but completely unbreakable. Almost every one had a different engine sound when they were ticking over. 404 sounded like a 1980s BMW. They struggled with the steep hills because they tended to change up to second gear which killed the revs and caused the bus to slow to a crawl. 409 and 427 were great because they stayed in first gear so they thundered up Penylan hill without any problem.

 

[Statto]

The Merseyside Ailsa's were all based at Laird Street 0054, & 0055 then 0069 to 0081, & all appeared on my local routes, i remember the knifeboard fabric seats they had on the 0069 to 0081 batch, they were used on the Chester routes when Merseybus won the tender for the Sunday routes, then started commercial routes a few years later, i always remember the weird positioning of the staircase, because of it, they only had a single seat at the front of the top deck, then 2 single single seats behind that, bit like NBC low height Olympians, but without that 3 seater bench seat at the front top deck. You could hear the engines on the Ailsa's what felt like a mile away.

I agree the Lynx is underrated too, West Midlands Travel had a large batch, i remember them on the Timesaver 979 Wolverhampton - Birmingham, with the dual purpose seats, & would belt down the road

 

[scosutsut]

Standard fodder for Stagecoach, Kelvin/SB Holdings and Mainline but not many others the B10M/PS type was completely underrated in my eyes. Power in abundance and I gather extremely reliable too.

 

[PG]

Standard fodder for Stagecoach, Kelvin/SB Holdings and Mainline but not many others the B10M/PS type was completely underrated in my eyes. Power in abundance and I gather extremely reliable too.

Agreed. Compared to most of their contemporaries they were easier to drive - light and responsive steering, good acceleration (especially with a ZF gearbox) and braking and all controls well placed.
I think that they weren't at all underrated in the industry, so maybe not worthy of being in this thread though?

 

[scosutsut]

Agreed. Compared to most of their contemporaries they were easier to drive - light and responsive steering, good acceleration (especially with a ZF gearbox) and braking and all controls well placed.
I think that they weren't at all underrated in the industry, so maybe not worthy of being in this thread though?

Perhaps not under rated then, just not as popular as they deserved to be, is that better? Routes that got Darts and B6s would have better deserved a heavyweight (a problem that persists to this day - definitely a new thread!)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps not under rated then, just not as popular as they deserved to be, is that better? Routes that got Darts and B6s would have better deserved a heavyweight (a problem that persists to this day - definitely a new thread!)

Ahhh....the common refrain of the enthusiast that a route must have a heavyweight (or a coach or a decker!)

The B10M was certainly not underrated. Drivers loved them and they were extremely reliable. Operators loved them for coaching work, taking the place of the Tiger and being the base of the National Expressliner. Why they weren't more numerous as buses was that the mid-engine meant they were relatively high floor and so not generally regarded as suited to urban work. However, I think most people think that for interurban work, there's little to touch it.

Remember that by the time Stagecoach began taking them in major numbers (first major batch were K regs), then it was only the following year that we saw the first batches of Lance SLFs. Even then, it had competition from the B10B and B10L - arguably the B10B is more fitting of the underrated tag?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The B10M was certainly not underrated. Drivers loved them and they were extremely reliable. Operators loved them for coaching work, taking the place of the Tiger and being the base of the National Expressliner. Why they weren't more numerous as buses was that the mid-engine meant they were relatively high floor and so not generally regarded as suited to urban work. However, I think most people think that for interurban work, there's little to touch it.

Despite the latter they (usually Alexander bodied) were still the mainstay of Stagecoach in pretty much every setting. Stagecoach Manchester used lots of them, including on the Wilmslow Road services - you don't get much busier than that. Other than the lack of accessibility they were good for passengers too - the near-totally flat floor meant you could space the seats out decently (or cram them in if needs be), once up the steps moving around was easy, and window views were good. Also the big wheels and tyres and good suspension meant a smooth ride.

(Those big wheels did mean that despite the high floor the wheelarches did protrude slightly, but I liked those seats, putting your feet up on them was quite comfortable).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Despite the latter they (usually Alexander bodied) were still the mainstay of Stagecoach in pretty much every setting. Stagecoach Manchester used lots of them, including on the Wilmslow Road services - you don't get much busier than that. Other than the lack of accessibility they were good for passengers too.

Indeed they were - I remember Busways getting a reasonable batch (N and P reg) in 1996 for use on urban work. However, the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act was looming large and once the Dart SLF and Volvo B10B came along, that was really it though interesting, Stagecoach did take B10Ms for Manchester until quite late. They were very useful cascades as those R-XVM ones ended up seemingly everywhere in the UK!

 

[RELL6L]

My thoughts:
Agree with everyone on the Lynx, a very good bus especially with the powerful Cummins engines, they didn't half go. Shame they didn't have such long lives, corrosion has been mentioned.
Talking of corrosion - add the Metropolitan and Metro Scania. They corroded and had poor fuel consumption but were great - comfortable and fast buses.
I think the DAF SB220 was pretty good especially the Optare Delta version.
The Mercedes O405 has been mentioned on the thread as relatively rare. Maybe it was rare here but I remember in Sydney in the early 1990s virtually every bus was a locally bodied Mercedes O405 and they were really good buses. I think they were top of the range on price but good quality. I think elsewhere in Europe left hand drive ones were the 'standard'.
I did see an Iveco Turbo City double decker - didn't Filers Coaches in Ilfracombe have one for a while? It sounded good but that's not sufficient to judge it.

 

[GusB]

I did see an Iveco Turbo City double decker - didn't Filers Coaches in Ilfracombe have one for a while? It sounded good but that's not sufficient to judge it.

I had completely forgotten about that one. I recall seeing it in Buses magazine when it first appeared, and it was certainly very different. I think it used a standard Iveco front cowl and Alexander built the rest of the RH body around it!

There are plenty of pictures here, including some with Filer's.

Flickr Search — “J227OKX or "J227 OKX"”

www.flickr.com

There was a single-deck demonstrator as well (K891XGS) which carried a slightly bizarre take on the PS body.

I'm not sure if the TurboCity really counts as underrated, though - were enough of them produced?

 

[Strathclyder]

I had completely forgotten about that one. I recall seeing it in Buses magazine when it first appeared, and it was certainly very different. I think it used a standard Iveco front cowl and Alexander built the rest of the RH body around it!

There are plenty of pictures here, including some with Filer's.

Flickr Search — “J227OKX or "J227 OKX"”

www.flickr.com

There was a single-deck demonstrator as well (K891XGS) which carried a slightly bizarre take on the PS body.

I'm not sure if the TurboCity really counts as underrated, though - were enough of them produced?

8 total for the UK market, including the decker and the PS-bodied demostrator; the other 6 were all bodied by Wadham Stringer. Maybe not 'overrated' per-se, but a missed opportunity/poor timing; the Renault PR100 could also fall into this bracket.

Here is a rear-view of the decker (copyright of Flickr's Les Eddy), the only angle where the distinctive Alexander lines were really evident on this beastie.

J227OKX

The back view of the Iveco double decker with Alexander body. This view also helps to emphasize its length.

www.flickr.com

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not sure if the TurboCity really counts as underrated, though - were enough of them produced?

I tend to agree with you - the bus world is littered with oddball and "never were" vehicle types but if they only had a handful of examples, I'm not certain if they could be under-rated. They were never plentiful enough to gain a rating - see also the Leyland-DAB Tiger Cub!

Interesting that the Daf SB200/Optare Delta got a mention. I thought that was well regarded and was bought in reasonable numbers. The Optare Sigma was not a bad vehicle but never got the orders expected.

 

[Swanny200]

I tend to agree with you - the bus world is littered with oddball and "never were" vehicle types but if they only had a handful of examples, I'm not certain if they could be under-rated. They were never plentiful enough to gain a rating - see also the Leyland-DAB Tiger Cub!

Interesting that the Daf SB200/Optare Delta got a mention. I thought that was well regarded and was bought in reasonable numbers. The Optare Sigma was not a bad vehicle but never got the orders expected.

The Vecta/Sigma/Spectra trio seemed to be a decent bet for the likes of Reading, Wilts and Dorset and Brighton and Hove, but never really took off elsewhere did they?

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Evobus (Mercedes-Benz) should have a lightweight integral midibus in their product line up if they want substantial UK orders. There's demand for midibuses in mainland Europe, so it's certainly not a UK specific niche.

They do have a midibus, the Citaro K is offered in the UK, at 10.6m long. Only 20 have been sold in the British Isles, most between Bus Vannin and RATP London in Surrey. Problem is they’re not lightweight, while there is a real demand for midibuses in mainland Europe there’s little demand for lightweight - they’re mostly all shortened heavyweight chassis.

For my tuppence worth I’ll also go for the Lynx. In north Ayrshire I’d always jump on the less frequent AA Buses service between Irvine and Ardrossan if it appeared in time as it was guaranteed to be a Lynx or a Scania N113, both of which were solid, had a great ride and flew along the road. It was either that or one of A1 Service’s elderly Atlanteans, Fleetlines or, god forbid, Alisas.

A1 had a love affair with them too, probably because they were built in its heartland, but I loathed them as a passenger as they were horrifically loud and bounced you off your seat if you were sat near the back. You could also hear them coming literally miles away (and hear them long after they’ve crossed the horizon) and, as someone else pointed out, seemed to struggle in hilly terrain.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Standard fodder for Stagecoach, Kelvin/SB Holdings and Mainline but not many others the B10M/PS type was completely underrated in my eyes. Power in abundance and I gather extremely reliable too.

I wouldn't really call them underrated given that practically everyone sings their praises about them! The same goes for the Y-Type, Ailsa and B10BLE to name a few.

They do have a midibus, the Citaro K is offered in the UK, at 10.6m long. Only 20 have been sold in the British Isles, most between Bus Vannin and RATP London in Surrey. Problem is they’re not lightweight, while there is a real demand for midibuses in mainland Europe there’s little demand for lightweight - they’re mostly all shortened heavyweight chassis.

The 10.8M Volvo B8RLE / MCV Evora has been seeing some decent success since it hit the market last July and it is also based on a shortened heavyweight chassis so there is the market when the right product comes along. I suspect the reason the Citaro K hasn't sold is more down to the Citaro itself just not being that popular in the UK anymore, even the 12M models have seen barely any sales in recent years. In fact in the past two years more articulated Citaro Gs have been sold in the UK than rigid Citaros!

 

[Strathclyder]

Yes they had 12 from Merseyside, fleet numbers 437 to 448, and eight from Fife, fleet numbers 449 to 456. The Mersey ones didn't last long, apart from the two painted blue and dedicated to the UWIC campus runs. They chucked out on service runs during the holidays. They lasted more or less to the end, as did the Scottish examples. The latter leaked like a sieve. There was usually water sloshing up and down the left hand side of the top deck when it rained.

They were crazy machines but completely unbreakable. Almost every one had a different engine sound when they were ticking over. 404 sounded like a 1980s BMW. They struggled with the steep hills because they tended to change up to second gear which killed the revs and caused the bus to slow to a crawl. 409 and 427 were great because they stayed in first gear so they thundered up Penylan hill without any problem.

Ah, didn't realize that Cardiff took some ex-Fife Scottish examples too.

The engine in the Ailsa (the TD70) hailed from Volvo's lineup of trucks (no surprise, especially given where the chassis was developed and built), which may partially explain how utterly bullet-proof they were. The grilles on the majority of the Alexander-bodied Ailsas, plus a few ancillaries behind it, were also lifted more or less straight from one of Volvo's cabover trucks (the F88 IIRC).

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The Vecta/Sigma/Spectra trio seemed to be a decent bet for the likes of Reading, Wilts and Dorset and Brighton and Hove, but never really took off elsewhere did they?

Erstwhile independent Hutchisons of Overtown took a total of 7 Vecta-bodied MAN 11.190s from October 1993 to April 1996. A small number compared to the larger operators who took to the Vecta-bodied MANs, but a not-insignificant amount for a operator of Hutchisons' size. For comparisons' sake, Hutchisons took a total of 9 Excels (one L1150 & 8 L1070s) from March 1997 to March 2000.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I never found the Ailsa's underpowered. That being said I only drove the fully automatic SCG version and if the gearhold was used they flew up hills. The Voith versions could have been different.

 

[Bikeman78]

I never found the Ailsa's underpowered. That being said I only drove the fully automatic SCG version

Were they the four speed ones that ran in Glasgow? They absolutely flew along. I remember them on routes 47 and 48 which had a a good bit of dual carriageway to whizz along.

 

[Strathclyder]

Were they the four speed ones that ran in Glasgow? They absolutely flew along. I remember them on routes 47 and 48 which had a a good bit of dual carriageway to whizz along.

@Devon Sunset worked for Eastern Scottish back in the day and drove a selection of their Ailsas. I'm gonna leave that one to Devon to answer lol

Glasgow/Strathclyde's examples were a mix of SCGs and Voiths. Gleaming from stories from those who drove them, it seems that the SCGs were far more lively/entertaining to drive, while the Voiths - mostly in A/B-reg Mk3s I beileve - were a more mature & refined product, but no less quick once properly wound up. The Mk3 Ailsas were noticeably quieter overall too, what with the alternator belt set-up - this is what produced the distinctive 'scream' that the prototypes, Mk1s and Mk2s made; it wasn't the turbocharger that screamed as has been claimed numerous times - being altered and the Hamworthy hub-reduction rear axles fitted to the prototypes, Mk1s and Mk2s being swapped out for a standard Volvo-issue equivalent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2022 ==

I wouldn't really call them underrated given that practically everyone sings their praises about them! The same goes for the Y-Type, Ailsa and B10BLE to name a few.

I suspect that the Ailsa wasn't/isn't universally praised from a driver ergonomics point of view, primarily due to the cramped cab (with the expected caveats in summer) thanks to the engine placement. Whether or not these were tolerated in light of the Ailsa's other plus points (responsiveness/handling, performance etc) of course varied from driver to driver. Same principles here apply to all deckers with the Ailsa's layout (the Wulfrunian, Guy/Leyland Victory & Dennis Jubliant). Just because it's one of my favourite bus types of any era doesn't mean I'm not ignorant of it's flaws.

The Y-Type is indeed rightly considered one of the highlights of the bus world, but it's worth mentioning some of the chassis it was fitted to are a bit more divisive to say the least as opposed to the likes of the all-conquering trio of Leopard, RE & Reliance.

 

[Devon Sunset]

Were they the four speed ones that ran in Glasgow? They absolutely flew along. I remember them on routes 47 and 48 which had a a good bit of dual carriageway to whizz along.

The SCG's were technically 5 speed but first was rarely used in practice, it was more of a crawler gear.

 

[RustySpoons]

How about the ALX300 bodied B10BLE? Didn't seem to sell anywhere near as well as the Renown. Was there any reason for it that made it a less attractive option than the Renown?

 

[Jordan Adam]

How about the ALX300 bodied B10BLE? Didn't seem to sell anywhere near as well as the Renown. Was there any reason for it that made it a less attractive option than the Renown?

Indeed almost 9 in 10 UK B10BLEs were Wright Renown bodied! I don't think there was any sole reason the ALX300 sold less other than First preferring the Renown and Stagecoach going for the MAN 18.220LF chassis.

The ALX300 did offer more forward facing seats and masses of luggage and buggy space (i've seen 5 buggy passengers on one at once...) however i personally found the Renown's to be far better built, nicer to travel on and just all round seemed the much better vehicle. The ALX300s could feel very cold and dark due to the seats being higher up at the rear compared to the Renown and the lighting not being great. Additionally the Renown's seemed to have far better heating, of particular note is 62204 which even on the coldest of days would always be nice and toasty inside. With that said despite not being as nice as the Wright bodied counterparts the 30 strong W/X-RFS batch of B10BLE/ALX300s Aberdeen had were good reliable workhorses.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My choice, and it got me thinking about it, is the Wright Cadet bodied SB120 beloved of many Arriva OpCos. What's yours - discuss?

An odd bus. In terms of ride quality and build quality it was an excellent bus, the ones Go North East were a huge step up from the Darts and the Optare Excels they replaced. But, as always with DAF, they ruined it by sticking a tractor engine in it. Over about 20mph the engine noise was deafening.

Others have mentioned the Citaro. They've sorted out the bizarre seating arrangements on the newer buses, but I'll be honest, the build quality doesn't seem great on the newest batch of Citaro Hybrids that Bus Vannin have bought. Everything seems to rattle in a way it never did on the older Citaros.

I always liked the Optare Sigma that Arriva Teesside had, although wish they hadn't done the usual Optare trick of putting in legroom that would give an Oompa-Loompa cramp. I was normally crippled after a thrash from Boro to Whitby on one on the X93.

 

[TR673]

I'm going to be a bit biased since I grew up riding on them and nor are they without their flaws, but the Optare Excel and Tempo feel fairly underrated to me, as a lighter weight saloon - narrower and more economical than Citaros, B7RLEs etc but more stylish and capable than a stretch length Dart. I know Optares of the 2000s tended to have issues, but with the successes they do/did have (for example TrentBarton got decent lives out of theirs in the end, plus Brylaine and Lynx are getting on brilliantly with 2nd hand Tempos) I can't understand why they aren't more popular or long lived, especially when the Solo did so well.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I always liked the Optare Sigma that Arriva Teesside had, although wish they hadn't done the usual Optare trick of putting in legroom that would give an Oompa-Loompa cramp. I was normally crippled after a thrash from Boro to Whitby on one on the X93.

Arriva North East didn't have Sigmas - think you mean Prismas

I'm going to be a bit biased since I grew up riding on them and nor are they without their flaws, but the Optare Excel and Tempo feel fairly underrated to me, as a lighter weight saloon - narrower and more economical than Citaros, B7RLEs etc but more stylish and capable than a stretch length Dart. I know Optares of the 2000s tended to have issues, but with the successes they do/did have (for example TrentBarton got decent lives out of theirs in the end, plus Brylaine and Lynx are getting on brilliantly with 2nd hand Tempos) I can't understand why they aren't more popular or long lived, especially when the Solo did so well.

The Tempo was definitely in the underrated camp. Enjoyed them on TrawsCymru services. It's successor was less regarded but why it didn't have more takers... Well, the 3 largest groups were already tied into existing relationships with ADL, Daf or Volvo and even NXWM or Go Ahead had their preferred options?

As for the Excel, it looked the part. Sadly, the reliability was appalling and the build quality was not to Optare's usual standards either.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

How about the ALX300 bodied B10BLE? Didn't seem to sell anywhere near as well as the Renown. Was there any reason for it that made it a less attractive option than the Renown?

The largest batches of ALX300's were prior to 1997 which was the year that Alexander's had probably their largest order book for deckers (certainly in the last 40 years) so they were perhaps not in a position to body as many. I also guess that there was a bigger sales value in a double decker as opposed to a single one so they concentrated on these. What is noticeable is that when Wright's became the pre-dominant body builder on the B10B their orders for Dart bodies seemed to dry up.