Trivia: Trains which take circular routes

[LNW-GW Joint]

Plenty of scope for loops in the Birmingham area with the connections north and south of New St.
The most common is Walsall-Soho-New St-Aston-Walsall and v.v., and similar variations on services to/from Wolverhampton/Rugeley.
Then there's Worcester-Camp Hill-New St-University-Worcester (and historically also via Stourbridge).
Somebody (Virgin or First?) had plans for a Euston-Trent Valley-Crewe-Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Euston service, looping north of Rugby.

 

[frodshamfella]

I think its gone now, but I always found the London Bridge to London Victoria a curious service . I did use it a few times, and found it not a bad way to get between the two London mainline stations, avoided the tube crush which would involve a change. I'm not how well this service was known.

 

[Horizon22]

I think its gone now, but I always found the London Bridge to London Victoria a curious service . I did use it a few times, and found it not a bad way to get between the two London mainline stations, avoided the tube crush which would involve a change. I'm not how well this service was known.

Very much two services joined together really - Crystal Palace is the natural mid-point / terminus from both sides. Was quite well used from either end but as mentioned, only as far as Crystal Palace normally - you wouldn't have people going much further than that; maybe one or two stops either side for convenience, but not often.

Incredibly slow doing London Bridge - Victoria though (60 mins) and I sincerely doubt anyone did this

 

[drb61]

Change at Motherwell by remaining on the train.

My understanding is that in the 2014 timetable recast the Motherwell via Whifflet services used to continue back via Hamilton and vice versa. However recent timetable changes I believe have completely eliminated this and services terminating in platforms 3 and 4 at Motherwell now form the next working back the way the came.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Very much two services joined together really - Crystal Palace is the natural mid-point / terminus from both sides. Was quite well used from either end but as mentioned, only as far as Crystal Palace normally - you wouldn't have people going much further than that; maybe one or two stops either side for convenience, but not often.

Incredibly slow doing London Bridge - Victoria though (60 mins) and I sincerely doubt anyone did this

I think he meant the Victoria-London Bridge route via Clapham High Street and Bermondsey. Gone now as the central bit is now part of the East London line (Clapham Junction to Dalston (Junction)).

Historical I know but. Back in the mid-late 1970s I utilised a service that ran from Victoria to Victoria via Balham, Selhurst, Norwood Junction, Crystal Palace and Balham. Although it might have run to/from Clapham Junction and not reached Victorisa.

 

[hermit]

Very much two services joined together really - Crystal Palace is the natural mid-point / terminus from both sides. Was quite well used from either end but as mentioned, only as far as Crystal Palace normally - you wouldn't have people going much further than that; maybe one or two stops either side for convenience, but not often.

Incredibly slow doing London Bridge - Victoria though (60 mins) and I sincerely doubt anyone did this

But the service that used to run between London Bridge and Victoria via Peckham Rye and Wandsworth Road was a useful service that provided a reasonably quick and hassle-free link. I often used it when having to visit an office next to London Bridge. However it was always the first service to be cut when there were staff shortages, and eventually became a casualty of the introduction of the Overground southern route.

 

[Horizon22]

I think he meant the Victoria-London Bridge route via Clapham High Street and Bermondsey. Gone now as the central bit is now part of the East London line (Clapham Junction to Dalston (Junction)).

Historical I know but. Back in the mid-late 1970s I utilised a service that ran from Victoria to Victoria via Balham, Selhurst, Norwood Junction, Crystal Palace and Balham. Although it might have run to/from Clapham Junction and not reached Victorisa.

Ah yes, that's been gone for a good 7-8 years now?

 

[frodshamfella]

Very much two services joined together really - Crystal Palace is the natural mid-point / terminus from both sides. Was quite well used from either end but as mentioned, only as far as Crystal Palace normally - you wouldn't have people going much further than that; maybe one or two stops either side for convenience, but not often.

Incredibly slow doing London Bridge - Victoria though (60 mins) and I sincerely doubt anyone did this

Ahh no I wasn't referring to that, it was the London Bridge - Victoria via Peckham Rye. Normally just two coaches. I think the service is long gone .

 

[30907]

Ahh no I wasn't referring to that, it was the London Bridge - Victoria via Peckham Rye. Normally just two coaches. I think the service is long gone .

There was a third, long gone, London Br - Tulse Hill - Victoria which as far back as 1970 was down to a single Streatham Hill - LBG via the Leigham Spur.

As mentioned earlier, South London had all sorts of out-and-back (not circular, despite the thread title) routes, which varied over the years.
From London Bridge (C) via
Tulse Hill - Crystal Palace - Forest Hill
Tulse Hill - Streatham Common - Forest Hill (both long-standing)
Tulse Hill - Crystal Palace - Streatham Common (IIRC a 70s Sunday variant for economy)
Tulse Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton - West Croydon/Hackbridge (may be false memory) from the period when Blackfriars was closed at weekends - there was still, pre-Covid, a Southern service over the W and S.

Via London Bridge (SE) the Barnehurst-Slade Green route is ancient, the regular use of the Crayford Spur is relatively modern (and of course there are several permutations of route).
Memory says there was once a Charing X - Tonbridge - Maidstone W, but I don't think that went any further than Strood.
East Kent presents plenty of options, but prior to the Javelin service I don't recall any booked through workings (pre 1959 there were Victoria-Ramsgate-Charing X "rounder" workings, but they were not continuous - in fact the one working notice I can access, 1952, has them ECS Ramsgate-Deal/Sandwich or v.v. )

Waterloo has the two "Roundabouts," Kingston and Hounslow, but there was at least the potential for a Chertsey Roundabout and even a Camberley one; the former was occasionally used, but mainly anti-clockwise to avoid crossing the LSW main line at Weybridge.

 

[Route115?]

There is an intersting example from Switzerland, the St. Gallen S-bahn S4 which takes three hours to run St, Gallen, Ziegelbrucke, Buchs & back to St. Gallen. Its operated clock-face hourly in each direction by the SOB. Just a case I know, doubtless there are others in Europe.

 

[30907]

There is an intersting example from Switzerland, the St. Gallen S-bahn S4 which takes three hours to run St, Gallen, Ziegelbrucke, Buchs & back to St. Gallen. Its operated clock-face hourly in each direction by the SOB. Just a case I know, doubtless there are others in Europe.

...and is an actual circular route. As is the Berlin S-bahn Ring

 

[Peter0124]

My understanding is that in the 2014 timetable recast the Motherwell via Whifflet services used to continue back via Hamilton and vice versa. However recent timetable changes I believe have completely eliminated this and services terminating in platforms 3 and 4 at Motherwell now form the next working back the way the came.

Oddly they're doing it now during the Anderston blockade, with the Glasgow-Whifflets continuing on to Hamilton etc and therefore Mount Florida etc.

I wish they didn't stop the interwork, it provided direct services between Hamilton Circle and Whifflet deviation.

 

[alholmes]

Another double-call is the Inverness-Wick service, stopping twice at Georgemas Junction

 

[scotrail170407]

Technically every Fife circle service which terminates at Glenrothes does this and then continues in the same direction albeit under a different headcode, completing the ‘circle’ upon arrival at Inverkeithing

 

[Bayum]

Do these loop trains have an opposing direction too? How are these differentiated on display boards?

 

[Lockwood]

Do these loop trains have an opposing direction too? How are these differentiated on display boards?

The Waterloo ones are advertised as a strawberry hill service and then a (somewhere else) service. Our the other way round, I can't remember. But you don't get "This is London Waterloo. The train now standing on platform 6 is the 0808 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo"


I have a question on fares/ticketing...
If you take the "long" journey, do you need a different ticket?
Say I had a ticket from Salisbury to Romsey and I had my ticket checked on the loop? Or the other way, I had a ticket from Romsey and boarded the "wrong" Salisbury service?
What would happen if you were going from Waterloo to Clapham via Kingston/Hounslow? Would the contactless system realise you took so long you must have gone through a load of extra zones? And if it doesn't behave that smart, how would it respond to a revenue check out there (zone 1 to zone 2, fare checked in zone 5/6)? Would that then generate a higher fare than if you did not get checked?

 

[Watershed]

If you take the "long" journey, do you need a different ticket?

As long as the headcode doesn't change, then in most cases the answer is no.

Say I had a ticket from Salisbury to Romsey and I had my ticket checked on the loop? Or the other way, I had a ticket from Romsey and boarded the "wrong" Salisbury service?

The former wouldn't be valid as you'd have overtravelled (past your destination) - an offence under section 103 of the Railway Consolidation Clauses Act 1845. The only exception to this would be if you'd bought your ticket with an itinerary indicating you could travel via the loop.

The latter would be fine as there is no rule against calling at your origin twice, the headcode remains the same throughout and all of the available tickets are routed Any Permitted.

What would happen if you were going from Waterloo to Clapham via Kingston/Hounslow? Would the contactless system realise you took so long you must have gone through a load of extra zones?

The system is "dumb" inasmuch as there's just a time limit - the maximum journey time (MJT) - which varies depending on the number of zones passed through, as well as the time of day and day of the week.

As long as you don't exceed the MJT, you'll be charged the same whether you go the "long way round" or not. If you exceed the MJT and touch out again, you'll be charged two maximum fares for two incomplete journeys, which you'll have to have rectified by the helpdesk.

And if it doesn't behave that smart, how would it respond to a revenue check out there (zone 1 to zone 2, fare checked in zone 5/6)? Would that then generate a higher fare than if you did not get checked?

No, only impact of a revenue check is that you will automatically be charged a maximum fare at the end of the day if you present a contactless card/device that was not touched in. And if you present an Oyster card that wasn't touched in, you'll be dealt with as per any other person without a valid ticket (i.e. possibly issued with a Penalty Fare).

The system doesn't know exactly where revenue checks take place and so doesn't use them in its calculations.

The combination of having a MJT, the limited area of validity and the fact that most major stations are barriered is considered enough to protect from short-faring etc. - so in exchange, you can take any route you like within the Oyster/contactless area of validity and the system will work out what to charge you.

 

[Lockwood]

Thanks - not sure why any of the journeys I suggested would ever be taken, but it's interesting to see some of the "what if" scenarios systems have

 

[Statto]

This had a notable change, because some years ago the trains ran from each start point, round the Liverpool loop and to the next point in that list above; over the course of a day trains thus visited each destination in turn. This was introduced because it appeared to offer a saving in turnround time efficiency of I think overall one train and crew in circuit, but the down side was on days when the service had been disrupted on one of the branches it rapidly spread to all, and eventally was given up for the simple plan.

Notably, each of the three main onetime Southern Railway divisions had "roundabout" services in varying combinations back to the London start point. The onetime Central Division has the more unusual arrangement, because from its two termini at Victoria and London Bridge there are a range of suburban lines oriented more or less at 45 degrees between the main lines, and all sorts of looped combinations were operated between them, some variants of which came and went over time.

Back in the day Merseyrail Wirral lines used to do this diagram
West Kirby to New Brighton via loop
New Brighton to Hooton via loop
Hooton to West Kirby via loop
Except for peak extras, this used to be the pattern at all times, trains took 4 hours to get to get back to the same terminal station.

Things changed with the extension to Chester then Ellesmere Port, trains couldn't follow that pattern anymore, so trains now do Chester to Chester ecc, only issue with that, because Chester branch takes around 85 minutes, trains only have around 5 minute layover at Chester, but trains are often delayed so end up arriving & departing Chester late.