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Trivia: Towns and cities that need a park & ride

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PTR 444

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I’ve always found it astonishing that both Bournemouth and Southampton, two of the largest settlements on the south coast of England, have no full park & ride provision. Especially so when smaller cities like Salisbury and Winchester have multiple sites spread across many locations.

The issue with both places is that they only have one high quality road in and out of town, causing massive congestion during peak times and leaving little resilience in the event of an accident or emergency. While Southampton does have the park & ride for hospital staff, the site at Adanac Park really needs to be expanded for use by the general public. It could be linked by a bus route via the City Centre to another site on the east of town somewhere near M27 junction 8.

Bournemouth on the other hand has a real missed opportunity with the development of Wessex Fields behind the hospital. With close proximity to the A338 dual carriageway and nearby bus interchange, it would be a prime location for a park and ride. So much so that I reckon it would need a multi-storey car park to account for the volume of summer visitors.

Any other places in need of similar treatment?
 
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Teapot42

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While it would be best as rail so OT for this forum, I'm amazed there isn't proper park and ride provision for London. Something just off the major motorways around the M25.

You could argue that if train fares weren't so high then people would use the train all the way, but not everyone is going to the main station their nearest line serves, and congestion is best dealt with further out rather than at the main stations.

Where a bus would help, Sheffield is one I'd point to. Yes there are park and rides, but they are more aimed at the tram and only on certain sides of the city. Something towards the south, as well as one somewhere near the A57 to the east would help reduce congestion to that side of the city.

And not a town or city at all, but a park and ride for the Peak District would be very welcome. Far too many cars entering the park with far too few parking spaces to accommodate them. Select 4 or 5 sites on the periphery, link them all with the major attractions and charge stupidly high parking charges for anyone who decides to drive in still.
 

PTR 444

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And not a town or city at all, but a park and ride for the Peak District would be very welcome. Far too many cars entering the park with far too few parking spaces to accommodate them. Select 4 or 5 sites on the periphery, link them all with the major attractions and charge stupidly high parking charges for anyone who decides to drive in still.
You could say the same for the New Forest, which also suffers from traffic problems. A park & ride site at Southampton could form the commencing point of a bus service through to Lyndhurst and Lymington, specifically aimed at getting day trippers out of their cars.
 

Magdalia

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I'm amazed there isn't proper park and ride provision for London.
Before Network SouthEast took the traffic the extremities of the Underground performed this function.

Day trips from the Fens to London usually involved driving to Stanmore or Cockfosters.
 

Ken H

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Leeds is pretty woeful. I just park in the street about 5 bus stops out.
How about hospitals? Airedale Hospital could use one.
 

Teapot42

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You could say the same for the New Forest, which also suffers from traffic problems. A park & ride site at Southampton could form the commencing point of a bus service through to Lyndhurst and Lymington, specifically aimed at getting day trippers out of their cars.
I suspect most national parks to be honest, although size and scale has an impact on how viable it might be. The Peak District has scope for services crossing much of it for example, but the Lakes might be better served with more local provision for the towns and attractions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Before Network SouthEast took the traffic the extremities of the Underground performed this function.

Day trips from the Fens to London usually involved driving to Stanmore or Cockfosters.
I've often wondered how practical Edgeware would be as somewhere to leave the car for a few days. I think a dedicated / monitored car park would feel more secure, and faster links than the underground would be attractive.

It might put paid to the clusters of hotels springing up in places like near the Excel which have parking so appeal to those who want to drive. A central hotel is so much more convenient, but getting there isn't cheap much of the time.
 

telstarbox

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If people are aiming for central London they'll get a train all the way. If they're heading to suburbs or the peripheral business areas like Park Royal, Lea Valley, Royal Docks, Chiswick, Beddington or the Heathrow area then they'll probably have free or cheap parking at the destination. Can't see much of a market in the middle.

Now Crossrail and Thameslink are complete there's even more opportunity to capture cross London journeys at the origin.
 

JonathanH

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While it would be best as rail so OT for this forum, I'm amazed there isn't proper park and ride provision for London. Something just off the major motorways around the M25.
There are so many places people are travelling from to get to London that a number of 'simple' park and ride facilities are never really going to make sense.

There is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging people to drive to the outskirts of London, and pick up a small amount of revenue from those passengers, and having them use a train all the way. There is also the matter of space for car parks.

In practice, people travel by car as far as they consider sensible, then park up and switch to the railway. That means that the park and ride is spread over a number of different locations.
 

Andyh82

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If people are aiming for central London they'll get a train all the way. If they're heading to suburbs or the peripheral business areas like Park Royal, Lea Valley, Royal Docks, Chiswick, Beddington or the Heathrow area then they'll probably have free or cheap parking at the destination. Can't see much of a market in the middle.

Now Crossrail and Thameslink are complete there's even more opportunity to capture cross London journeys at the origin.
It’d be good if there was a single source to find out the best Park and Ride locations around the M25 both tube and rail

Without researching every possible station you don’t know if a station has a car park or not, or whether it has a multi storey with spare capacity or a glorified forecourt with about 10 spaces, and indeed whether the rail service has spare off peak capacity or is pretty limited

Sometimes particularly with rail strikes or with more central hotels being expensive, people may want to drive part of the way and then catch the train

I know I once wanted to be particularly thrifty and did a city break to London staying in Stevenage, as I fathomed a fast train cab get to KX quicker and more comfortably than an all stations tube does from somewhere closer
 

Trainguy34

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I would say Medway towns, perhaps near Rochester airport but who wants to go to Medway anyway! ;)
 

Simon75

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From Essex/East Anglia , you can use Newbury Park and Gants Hill tube, as a 'park and Ride ', and now Shenfield on the Elizabeth line
There are so many places people are travelling from to get to London that a number of 'simple' park and ride facilities are never really going to make sense.

There is a fine balance to be struck between encouraging people to drive to the outskirts of London, and pick up a small amount of revenue from those passengers, and having them use a train all the way. There is also the matter of space for car parks.

In practice, people travel by car as far as they consider sensible, then park up and switch to the railway. That means that the park and ride is spread over a number of different locations.
 
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Peak District would be very welcome. Far too many cars entering the park with far too few parking spaces to accommodate them.
As someone living in the peak district this would be very nice. I don't bother going anywhere on bank holidays as I'll just get stuck in traffic. A 10 min drive to Bakewell turns into an hour. Not to mention Bakewell is full of car parks anyway.

Better bus service in general is needed in the peak. My village has a terrible bus service that's quite often late or doesn't turn up, and the last bus from Bakewell is at 6pm which is quite inconvenient.

As for park and ride facilities. One near Buxton would be good for people coming from Manchester (and it could connect with Buxton station). As for the Sheffield direction I'm not really an expert but perhaps something off the M1 between Sheffield and chesterfield? I'd love to hear other people's suggestions on this.
 

Simon75

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As someone living in the peak district this would be very nice. I don't bother going anywhere on bank holidays as I'll just get stuck in traffic. A 10 min drive to Bakewell turns into an hour. Not to mention Bakewell is full of car parks anyway.

Better bus service in general is needed in the peak. My village has a terrible bus service that's quite often late or doesn't turn up, and the last bus from Bakewell is at 6pm which is quite inconvenient.

As for park and ride facilities. One near Buxton would be good for people coming from Manchester (and it could connect with Buxton station). As for the Sheffield direction I'm not really an expert but perhaps something off the M1 between Sheffield and chesterfield? I'd love to hear other people's suggestions on this.
Leek maybe (this has poor service to Buxton) ?
 

Killingworth

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While it would be best as rail so OT for this forum, I'm amazed there isn't proper park and ride provision for London. Something just off the major motorways around the M25.

You could argue that if train fares weren't so high then people would use the train all the way, but not everyone is going to the main station their nearest line serves, and congestion is best dealt with further out rather than at the main stations.

Where a bus would help, Sheffield is one I'd point to. Yes there are park and rides, but they are more aimed at the tram and only on certain sides of the city. Something towards the south, as well as one somewhere near the A57 to the east would help reduce congestion to that side of the city.

And not a town or city at all, but a park and ride for the Peak District would be very welcome. Far too many cars entering the park with far too few parking spaces to accommodate them. Select 4 or 5 sites on the periphery, link them all with the major attractions and charge stupidly high parking charges for anyone who decides to drive in still.
As far as South Sheffield is concerned Dore is becoming a parkway station for Manchester and the Hope Valley part of the Peak Distict- although local residents aren't happy with road side parking now the car park is full Tuesday - Thursday.

A feasibity study for adding platforms on the MML highlighted likely extraction of users from Sheffiekd, Dronfield and Chesterfield against totally new business, setting that alongside adding 3 minutes journey time on each stop and potential delays to all other services. And ccst of building platforms and environmental issues surrounding more car parking provision. Not viable.

All trains into Hull from the west and south stop at Brough
 

Teapot42

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If people are aiming for central London they'll get a train all the way. If they're heading to suburbs or the peripheral business areas like Park Royal, Lea Valley, Royal Docks, Chiswick, Beddington or the Heathrow area then they'll probably have free or cheap parking at the destination. Can't see much of a market in the middle.

Now Crossrail and Thameslink are complete there's even more opportunity to capture cross London journeys at the origin.
We aim for central London, and the only time we've used the train was when my employer was paying my fare and we only had to pay for one rather than two. Otherwise even at the £20 a day most hotels charge it's still cheaper to drive. If you live next to a station that has a direct link to London then that's a different story, but otherwise the current sums are very much against using the train.

It does limit what hotels we can stay in, whereas if we could leave the car just off the M25 and get a quick train in then it would massively change where we stay and how often we visited.

I should point out I'm talking about driving down from the Midlands, so not a 20 minute drive to a park and ride here!
 

Man of Kent

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I would say Medway towns, perhaps near Rochester airport but who wants to go to Medway anyway! ;)
Exactly where it used to operate from, as a Saturdays and events-only operation in the 1990s until withdrawn at some point I think in the early 2000s. A triangular service, running out to Rochester, then to Chatham, and back to the airport.
 

Trainguy34

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Exactly where it used to operate from, as a Saturdays and events-only operation in the 1990s until withdrawn at some point I think in the early 2000s. A triangular service, running out to Rochester, then to Chatham, and back to the airport.
Ah, makes sense considering size, only tourist attractions I can think of are the cathedral in Rochester and Chatham Dockyard!
 

Teapot42

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As someone living in the peak district this would be very nice. I don't bother going anywhere on bank holidays as I'll just get stuck in traffic. A 10 min drive to Bakewell turns into an hour. Not to mention Bakewell is full of car parks anyway.

Better bus service in general is needed in the peak. My village has a terrible bus service that's quite often late or doesn't turn up, and the last bus from Bakewell is at 6pm which is quite inconvenient.

As for park and ride facilities. One near Buxton would be good for people coming from Manchester (and it could connect with Buxton station). As for the Sheffield direction I'm not really an expert but perhaps something off the M1 between Sheffield and chesterfield? I'd love to hear other people's suggestions on this.
We are similar, from Chesterfield you have to plan where and when you go to avoid getting stuck in traffic.

I think the question is how far in to the Peaks do you want people to get? I'd actually thought maybe two layer of P&R might work, ones on the edge of the Park with free parking and ones further in where you paid a modest fee but still cheaper than car parks in the actual towns and villages.

You'd probably also want to provide reduced tariffs for locals.

Chesterfield itself could be an option - traffic to the Peaks brings the place to a standstill as it has to go through the middle of town. The town itself has plenty of parking but there would be scope to build something off the Hasland bypass to capture M1 traffic before it even got in to town. Then for the 'further in at a cost' parking, Baslow has been suggested before.

Whaley Bridge or Chapel might be good options from the Manchester direction, with Buxton as you suggest being a 'further in' option.

It's difficult to fund more and later buses without a source of revenue, and parking seems the logical one to target. It's not the number of people coming that's the issue, it's how they come, so finding a way to make it still convenient while dissuading them from driving in to the park will be the skill.
 

duncombec

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Ah, makes sense considering size, only tourist attractions I can think of are the cathedral in Rochester
Rochester Castle, Eastgate House, Restoration House....
and Chatham Dockyard!
... which isn't in Chatham.

The Park & Ride was mostly useful in the days when people still did their shopping in town centres on Saturday, and town centre parking was at a premium - that hasn't been the case for a while now, in the Medway Towns or otherwise. The site is now used as the coach park, following the closure of Rochester Riverside and conversion of the site to a primary school.

There is a staff-only Park & Ride from Chatham Dockyard (which is in Gillingham) to Medway Hospital, which would appear to be the more pressing need, given the nightmare that is trying to park on that highly constrained site. The Dockyard is also used (subject to their own events) for festival weekend Park & Rides (such as the Arts budget can now afford them), otherwise they use the University campus on the other side of the main road.


As for "London", it has (and may still be) popular to drive to North Greenwich and then use the Jubilee line, but ultimately, for large parts of the south-east there seems no need for a Park & Ride, because the train fulfils the need.
 

jupiter

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Corfe/Swanage/Studland are crying out for some relief from traffic, especially from the Dorchester/Wareham side. The ferry side is self-limiting.

I was on the peninsular yesterday trying to move about principally by bus and every 50 (Bournemouth to Swanage via the ferry) that went past was "Sorry Bus Full". This despite raising the service from one to two an hour.
 

The exile

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I suspect most national parks to be honest, although size and scale has an impact on how viable it might be. The Peak District has scope for services crossing much of it for example, but the Lakes might be better served with more local provision for the towns and attractions.
The difficulty with the National Parks is that, other than a few obvious "honey pot" attractions, there is a wide number of diverse destinations, and many people driving there are (ironically) trying to get to places where there are as few people as possible, so the concept would have to be different - large car parks "feeding" a network of frequent local bus services (as opposed to, or in addition to, a shuttle to one or two destinations) - which I doubt would be viable. Park and Rides work well when people are coming by car from a large number of diverse destination (so there's no viable public transport) but all heading to roughly the same place (city centre, major tourist site or hospital etc)
 

PTR 444

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Corfe/Swanage/Studland are crying out for some relief from traffic, especially from the Dorchester/Wareham side. The ferry side is self-limiting.

I was on the peninsular yesterday trying to move about principally by bus and every 50 (Bournemouth to Swanage via the ferry) that went past was "Sorry Bus Full". This despite raising the service from one to two an hour.
There is already the Norden Park & Ride, although this is only useful when the Swanage Railway is operating. Perhaps the car park could be bought by the council and made into a year-round facility with the no.40 bus diverted to serve it. Another summer-only route (let’s give it the number 45) could also run from the site to serve Studland.
 

Citistar

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Looking a little further afield, Antwerp has become a good model for how P&R sites can work. There have been several large, multi-storey car parks built at easily accessible locations near the city. These cost €1 for up to 24 hours parking (fees rise considerably beyond 24h to prevent them being used as airport parking or long term car dumps). Passengers are then directed on to the main public transport network for the city - there are no special services (although the Linkeroever tram line has been strengthened).

I think the age of providing dedicated bus services for P&R sites needs to come to an end because car drivers are not special passengers. Sites need to be in the places where they will attract most usage and not where they are easiest to build (as happened with the failed site at Wroughton in Swindon). P&R should be a tool as part of wider network revisions to make local transport networks more attractive to all users.

Locally to me, Bath is about to lose a fairly substantial city centre car park, but still the woeful local council cannot manage to build a P&R site for either of the main routes to the east of the city. Two of the existing P&R sites are regularly at capacity. A failed parking strategy makes long term city centre parking far too cheap. Any urban area with a significant tourist footfall like Bath should be investing in P&R to free up their urban routes for mass transit. Likewise Bristol needs two P&R sites at the north of the city - preferably the A38/M5/M4 junction and top of the M32 - the latter could easily be served by the Metrobus routes and the former could form the basis of strengthened service down the Gloucester Road. But sadly, local leadership is too busy deluding itself about the city's capacity for private transport whilst bleating on about cargo bikes and e-scooters.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Looking a little further afield, Antwerp has become a good model for how P&R sites can work. There have been several large, multi-storey car parks built at easily accessible locations near the city. These cost €1 for up to 24 hours parking (fees rise considerably beyond 24h to prevent them being used as airport parking or long term car dumps). Passengers are then directed on to the main public transport network for the city - there are no special services (although the Linkeroever tram line has been strengthened).

I think the age of providing dedicated bus services for P&R sites needs to come to an end because car drivers are not special passengers. Sites need to be in the places where they will attract most usage and not where they are easiest to build (as happened with the failed site at Wroughton in Swindon). P&R should be a tool as part of wider network revisions to make local transport networks more attractive to all users.

Locally to me, Bath is about to lose a fairly substantial city centre car park, but still the woeful local council cannot manage to build a P&R site for either of the main routes to the east of the city. Two of the existing P&R sites are regularly at capacity. A failed parking strategy makes long term city centre parking far too cheap. Any urban area with a significant tourist footfall like Bath should be investing in P&R to free up their urban routes for mass transit. Likewise Bristol needs two P&R sites at the north of the city - preferably the A38/M5/M4 junction and top of the M32 - the latter could easily be served by the Metrobus routes and the former could form the basis of strengthened service down the Gloucester Road. But sadly, local leadership is too busy deluding itself about the city's capacity for private transport whilst bleating on about cargo bikes and e-scooters.
Some interesting points from @Citistar especially in respect of how you might serve towns and cities.

The comment on having them where you need them (i.e. on the main arterial routes) rather than where they can be accommodated is very true. Swindon had two sites - now mothballed but extant (I think). I passed the Wroughton one last week, and it has always struck me that it was one of the worst conceived schemes in the country, being on what is essentially a relatively quiet road from Devizes.

Back in the day, the idea of dedicated bus services made sense.
  • Dedicated vehicles in an appropriate livery would drive awareness of the facility
  • Dedicated vehicles wouldn't be liable to arrive from elsewhere and have insufficient capacity for the waiting drivers and undermine the idea of them every undertaking "modal shift"
  • Dedicated vehicles would be waiting (!) acting as a mobile waiting room
Over the years, the concept has waned and for a number of reasons. Firstly, local authorities have not had the money to invest in developing and maintaining sites. Nor have they had the skills or resources to promote them. Some were poorly conceived (like Swindon) but many suffered during cuts to local government funding. It's easy to put a £ figure on the cost but less easy to quantify the benefit, so some were an "easy cut" like Worcester (of which one site was sold for development). That's before you get to councils having a vested interest in getting car drivers to pay for parking in the centre of town, and the decline of high street shopping (even pre Covid) and commuting.

So what's the solution? Well IMHO...
  • Having sites on major arterial roads is one bit of best practice
  • Have a decent waiting area (but not some palace that's expensive to maintain)
    • Harlescott P&R in Shrewsbury is the most soulless, bleak place to wait for a bus
1724332584258.png
  • The buses themselves should be modern
  • A high enough frequency to make it attractive
    • The Salisbury ones are now half hourly and in the case of Wilton, that's after losing the dedicated route and diverting the Bulbridge route (which should probably be more frequent anyway) to serve it
  • The route should be quick and have bus priority to remove/reduce the time penalty from changing mode
    • The Brislington P&R uses the Bath Road in Bristol yet it often is caught in the same pinch points (West Town Lane, Bristol Hill, Arnos Vale, Printworks)
  • Market the option effectively on those roads approaching the sites
    • Construct the tender of a dedicated P&R bus service with some form of gainshare with the operator to drive usage
  • Remove some of the town centre roadside parking (1% p.a.) and then increase charges to compensate for the loss of revenue (supply and demand)
To pick up on @Citistar's specific complaints, it is fair to say that Bath and North East Somerset Council have wanted to have a site on the East of the city. After assessing and discounting various sites, they came to a shortlist of three. The local populace and many other people not directly affected effectively waged a campaign and the proposals were shelved - not so much NIMBYs but BANANAs (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything). I wouldn't say parking in Bath is cheap; we used to get the P&R but having moved, now just get the regular bus with the £2 fare!


EDIT: to answer the question, I'd suggest that Darlington could actually benefit from a Park and Ride located at Lingfield Point that could support traffic from the East, and one somewhere around Harrowgate Hill.

Worcester would benefit but it did have two (though only one was really any use). Perdiswell was in a good location but they flogged it for a care home!
 
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Teapot42

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the town centre roadside parking (1% p.a.) and then increase charges to compensate for the loss of revenue (supply and demand)
To pick up on @Citistar's specific complaints, it is fair to say that Bath and North East Somerset Council have wanted to have a site on the East of the city. After assessing and discounting various sites, they came to a shortlist of three. The local populace and many other people not directly affected effectively waged a campaign and the proposals were shelved - not so much NIMBYs but BANANAs (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything). I wouldn't say parking in Bath is cheap; we used to get the P&R but having moved, now just get the regular bus with the £2 fare!
I've wondered why there was no facility on the east side of Bath. We stayed near Bradford last year and it seemed really daft to have to pretty much drive through the centre of Bath then out the other side again to Lansdowne. We only bothered because parking in Bath itself is really expensive. We also found there wasn't much in the way of late buses - had we wanted to do something that went late in to the evening I think I'd have had to go out and bring the car in, as the last bus out is 20:30.

As an aside, the Bath P&R sites don't appear to allow overnight parking. We actually wanted to stay in Bath, but needing to drive down there was no option that included parking, and the car parks in town were very expensive. We'd have happily left the car outside the city but that doesn't appear to be an option.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I've wondered why there was no facility on the east side of Bath. We stayed near Bradford last year and it seemed really daft to have to pretty much drive through the centre of Bath then out the other side again to Lansdowne. We only bothered because parking in Bath itself is really expensive. We also found there wasn't much in the way of late buses - had we wanted to do something that went late in to the evening I think I'd have had to go out and bring the car in, as the last bus out is 20:30.

As an aside, the Bath P&R sites don't appear to allow overnight parking. We actually wanted to stay in Bath, but needing to drive down there was no option that included parking, and the car parks in town were very expensive. We'd have happily left the car outside the city but that doesn't appear to be an option.
The overnight thing is a bit of an oddity. I don't think the sites are actually closed despite issues with travellers. Mind you, I don't know how secure they are at night. Lansdowne is a bit of a problem, in addition, as the only service does stop when you say. The others have dedicated services but are also served by regular services that have later cut offs. For Bradford on Avon, most folks tend to use the train anyway
 

Teapot42

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The overnight thing is a bit of an oddity. I don't think the sites are actually closed despite issues with travellers. Mind you, I don't know how secure they are at night. Lansdowne is a bit of a problem, in addition, as the only service does stop when you say. The others have dedicated services but are also served by regular services that have later cut offs. For Bradford on Avon, most folks tend to use the train anyway
I didn't get the impression they closed, but there was a suggestion of charging, potentially fining users who stayed over. Lansdowne is a long way out so not surprised there are no 'normal' services passing it. Seems odd they couldn't have found a location a bit closer in - when we went it didn't seem that well used either, we got parked almost right next to the place the buses stop, although it was a Bank Holiday weekend which might make a difference.

If we'd been in Bradford we'd probably have done the same, we were far enough out that driving to Bath was just as easy.
 
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