Trivia-Services that could be combined to make a new through service

[Chiltern006]

For example:
Ormskirk-Preston and Preston-Blackpool South could probably be combined with little problems

Strood-Tonbridge and Tonbridge-Redhill
Would give surrey a link with north Kent, something it hasn’t had in a long time (ever?)

Sudbury-Marks Tey and Ipswich-Felixstowe
This one im not too sure about ie paths between Marks Tey and Ipswich. It would take up more stock but I feel it might be useful.

Any other ideas?

 

[JonathanH]

Strood-Tonbridge and Tonbridge-Redhill
Would give surrey a link with north Kent, something it hasn’t had in a long time (ever?)

Happened in the past - demand for cross Tonbridge travel is likely to be minimal

Sudbury-Marks Tey and Ipswich-Felixstowe
This one im not too sure about ie paths between Marks Tey and Ipswich. It would take up more stock but I feel it might be useful.

There is apparently an issue at Marks Tey with the pedestrian route to the car park. Moreover, it is better to use the mainline capacity for mainline trains and freight. Linking up two single track routes isn't ideal. Not sure there is much demand to link Sudbury and Felixstowe - the usual suggestion is to link Sudbury through to Colchester Town.

There are, of course, lots of places where linking up journeys has been successful - for example Norwich to Stansted Airport linked up Norwich to Cambridge and Cambridge to Stansted Airport once bi-mode trains were available - and some where it is simply convenient to link one pair of services rather than another.

I'll suggest North Berwick to Glasgow Central via Shotts to create a cross Edinburgh service.

 

[Dai Corner]

Wick-Inverness, Inverness-Aberdeen and Aberdeen-Penzance.

Probably an operational and commercial non-starter but it would be cool to travel the whole way on one train.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Buxton to Stalybridge anyone?

 

[Chiltern006]

that would give reddish south and denton a potential regular service, good idea

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One that comes up a lot is to extend the Manchester to Huddersfield stopper to Wakefield Kirkgate. This isn't quite a merger as the Huddersfield to Wakefield (and Castleford) doesn't run at the moment, but there is history there: For much of the 1990s the two services as they were were linked, operated by Regional Railways North West, later First North Western. It even linked ran through Manchester to Llandudno at times.
In a similar vein, Huddersfield to Sheffield has in the past been linked with Sheffield to Retford/Lincoln, and still is on Sundays. Not sure there's many passengers doing the whole run though!. The main reason is to reduce the number of units needed in service.

Would merging the Hull to Halifax with the Bradford to Huddersfield be worthwhile? It would restore the latter to hourly, and if an extra unit is required you've already freed one up from that service as it wouldn't need a separate diagram.

 

[306024]

Sudbury-Marks Tey and Ipswich-Felixstowe
This one im not too sure about ie paths between Marks Tey and Ipswich. It would take up more stock but I feel it might be useful.

Any other ideas?

Not if they are as good as this one Operational disaster waiting to happen.

 

[zwk500]

Happened in the past - demand for cross Tonbridge travel is likely to be minimal

Cross Tonbridge demand could be raised if the service went somewhere more useful than Redhill, but getting capacity to reverse for Gatwick isn't easy.

Wick-Inverness, Inverness-Aberdeen and Aberdeen-Penzance.

Probably an operational and commercial non-starter but it would be cool to travel the whole way on one train.

It's also not a 'through' service, there being the little matter of having to do the hokey kokey at Inverness as you can't go from one route to another with a simple reversal.

 

[RobShipway]

Cross Tonbridge demand could be raised if the service went somewhere more useful than Redhill, but getting capacity to reverse for Gatwick isn't easy.

Admittedly you still have to have the capacity to reverse at Redhill, but could you not have every other train from Tonbridge to Redhill, then go on to Guildford and Reading with the service in between going to Gatwick to start a Gatwick - Reading service?

 

[PTR 444]

• Romsey - Salisbury and Westbury - Swindon
• Paddington - Exeter (semifast) and Exeter - Penzance
• Paddington - Didcot and Didcot - Oxford
• Doncaster - Lincoln and Lincoln - Peterborough
• Crewe - Derby and Nottingham - Skegness
• Manchester - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Castleford
• Sheffield - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Bradford
• Llandudno - Manchester and Manchester - Leeds (via Calder Valley)

 

[zwk500]

Romsey - Salisbury and Westbury - Swindon

There's not a great deal of demand up that way, and the Romsey Rockets are already vulnerable enough to disruption at Southampton, best not to take more risks with it. The Southampton-Bristols were always quite popular though, and give similar interchange opportunities - are they still hanging around?

Paddington - Exeter (semifast) and Exeter - Penzance

Given a Pad-Penzance already runs, what would this achieve?

Paddington - Didcot and Didcot - Oxford

Yes, the split was originally because of the electrification fizzling out, but I think the intention is to rejoin them when Oxford is sorted.

Doncaster - Lincoln and Lincoln - Peterborough

Again, possible but given the vast majority of traffic will be for Lincoln (the ECML being the far more attractive route for longer journeys) will this actually help people or will it just be a delay magnet?

Crewe - Derby and Nottingham - Skegness

There be a hole in this plan!

Manchester - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Castleford
Sheffield - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Bradford

These are possible, Castlefield-Manchester seems a bit of a long run to me but I don't know the travel patterns so well in this area. Sheffield-Bradford also seems like a good idea but depends on journey time - Sheffield-Leeds is well served and quick, with regular trains between Leeds and both Bradford Stations. A twisty route up the Penistone line then getting over to Brighouse and up past Halifax may well take a lot longer.

 

[Basil Jet]

I'll tell you one I would never have suggested... Newquay to Par and Truro to Falmouth, but for some reasons TPTB think it's a good idea.

 

[zwk500]

Admittedly you still have to have the capacity to reverse at Redhill, but could you not have every other train from Tonbridge to Redhill, then go on to Guildford and Reading with the service in between going to Gatwick to start a Gatwick - Reading service?

The issue is getting the Junction and Platform at Redhill! Also, I suspect the economics of the flows between Guildford and Tonbridge are somewhat limiting for operating a subsidy-free service.
I personally would keep it as simple as possible and just run 1tph Tonbridge-Redhill-Gatwick as there's capacity for 1tph but no more between Earlswood and Gatwick, but if you were doing some big works anyway you could drop a 4-Car bay on the east side of Redhill station to give 2tph Tonbridge-Redhill with 1tph extension to Gatwick. This would work in connection with the existing North Downs Line services, which I would leave as they are proposed to be.

 

[PTR 444]

There's not a great deal of demand up that way, and the Romsey Rockets are already vulnerable enough to disruption at Southampton, best not to take more risks with it. The Southampton-Bristols were always quite popular though, and give similar interchange opportunities - are they still hanging around?

Don’t think so as they now all run from Portsmouth to Cardiff. The idea of this is to close the frequency gap between Salisbury and Westbury, although this might be better done by simply extending the Swindon - Westbury to Salisbury/Southampton and leave the Romsey Rocket as it is.

Given a Pad-Penzance already runs, what would this achieve?

A more frequent service from London to Plymouth and Penzance

Yes, the split was originally because of the electrification fizzling out, but I think the intention is to rejoin them when Oxford is sorted.

True, although what’s the practicality of running a rejoined service now with 5-car IETs or class 769s?

Again, possible but given the vast majority of traffic will be for Lincoln (the ECML being the far more attractive route for longer journeys) will this actually help people or will it just be a delay magnet?

I can’t see it causing much delay as it is largely separate from the ECML. Trains could have a longer stop scheduled in Lincoln to make up for any delays.

There be a hole in this plan!

Well spotted, but presumably the Derby - Nottingham section would be covered as an additional tph between the two forming part of the longer service.

These are possible, Castlefield-Manchester seems a bit of a long run to me but I don't know the travel patterns so well in this area. Sheffield-Bradford also seems like a good idea but depends on journey time - Sheffield-Leeds is well served and quick, with regular trains between Leeds and both Bradford Stations. A twisty route up the Penistone line then getting over to Brighouse and up past Halifax may well take a lot longer.

It would be of benefit to travellers on the Penistone Line whose final destination is Bradford however.

 

[zwk500]

True, although what’s the practicality of running a rejoined service now with 5-car IETs or class 769s?

IETs are better deployed on the London-Oxford (and beyond) turns, and there aren't enough 769s to cover this service as well, they're for Reading-Gatwick and Reading-Basingstoke.

I can’t see it causing much delay as it is largely separate from the ECML. Trains could have a longer stop scheduled in Lincoln to make up for any delays.

The intersection of the Nottingham-Cleethorpes line with all it's freight tied into a long run between Doncaster and Peterborough (that's tied into the ECML at both ends) will probably quickly degrade. How big is the demand for cross-Lincoln travel? If it's big then a long stop is unattractive, if it's small then why join the service up?

Well spotted, but presumably the Derby - Nottingham section would be covered as an additional tph between the two forming part of the longer service.

I'm guessing there's a Trent Jns-related reason why one or the other is not extended already. Nottingham-Crewe would be an interesting service if it ever ran though.

It would be of benefit to travellers on the Penistone Line whose final destination is Bradford however.

Are there many of these?

 

[Purple Train]

• Romsey - Salisbury and Westbury - Swindon
• Paddington - Exeter (semifast) and Exeter - Penzance
• Paddington - Didcot and Didcot - Oxford
• Doncaster - Lincoln and Lincoln - Peterborough
• Crewe - Derby and Nottingham - Skegness
• Manchester - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Castleford
• Sheffield - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Bradford
• Llandudno - Manchester and Manchester - Leeds (via Calder Valley)

Doncaster-Peterborough via Lincoln through services do actually run, see here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-08-08/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
(Link is for Realtime Trains, showing departures from Spalding tomorrow, on Monday the 8th of August)


How about a GWR-operated Guildford-Oxford via Reading stopper, using platforms 13-15 at Reading, or, alternatively, Guildford-Didcot Parkway when the 769s come in, to avoid having to change power mode twice? Or a Southern-operated Haywards Heath-Seaford via Plumpton service?

 

[zwk500]

How about a GWR-operated Guildford-Oxford via Reading stopper, using platforms 13-15 at Reading, or, alternatively, Guildford-Didcot Parkway when the 769s come in, to avoid having to change power mode twice?

The difficult bit is getting from the Wokingham line to the Relief lines at Reading. Once you've done that, may as well run all the way to Oxford.

Or a Southern-operated Haywards Heath-Seaford via Plumpton service?

Given the interchange already exists at Lewes, and the issues squeezing trains through Keymer Jn-Haywards Heath, I don't think this is sensible. If you could get it through to London (or even Croydon) then maybe it might be worth it.

 

[Purple Train]

The difficult bit is getting from the Wokingham line to the Relief lines at Reading. Once you've done that, may as well run all the way to Oxford.

I believe that there is a fly-under going from the Wokingham lines to the relief lines: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/reading#T_RDNGSTN
(Link is for Open Train Times's Reading map)

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe that there is a fly-under going from the Wokingham lines to the relief lines: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/reading#T_RDNGSTN
(Link is for Open Train Times's Reading map)

Definitely is, and it’s used in passenger service at start and end of the day’s services. And would be used by XC if it ever restarted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2022 ==

Don’t think so as they now all run from Portsmouth to Cardiff. The idea of this is to close the frequency gap between Salisbury and Westbury, although this might be better done by simply extending the Swindon - Westbury to Salisbury/Southampton and leave the Romsey Rocket as it is.

I think @zwk500 was possibly referring to the pre-Covid timetable when there were a few GWR short workings each day to/from Southampton, that ran in between the hourly Portsmouth-Cardiff services. The Brighton services were an example that ran via Bristol. A couple of such trains still run, but not as many as in 2019. However I wouldn't have necessarily referred to them as Southampton-Bristol services, as some went elsewhere, eg Swindon, Gloucester, or Great Malvern.

But going back 3 or 4 years there were definite proposals being made by local councils I think under the “trans-Wilts” banner to rationalise things and run a through service to Swindon via Melksham by joining it to the Romsey-Salisbury. I think the big question was whether to run the section north of Salisbury hourly or 2 hourly. Thats probably a proposal that triggered the service you were suggesting?

 

[RobShipway]

The difficult bit is getting from the Wokingham line to the Relief lines at Reading. Once you've done that, may as well run all the way to Oxford.

Given the interchange already exists at Lewes, and the issues squeezing trains through Keymer Jn-Haywards Heath, I don't think this is sensible. If you could get it through to London (or even Croydon) then maybe it might be worth it.

If you used 5 car 377 units, you could do the Seaford - London service, which is what previously used to happen. However, even though on football match days for Brighton & Hove there is 8 car trains running on the Seaford - Brighton service, these trains do hang across the level crossing at Newhaven Town. Hence, why the trains would be better off being 5 car class 377 service.

I believe that there is a fly-under going from the Wokingham lines to the relief lines: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/reading#T_RDNGSTN
(Link is for Open Train Times's Reading map)

There is a fly under, but the line there is not powered by either 3rd rail or overhead AC, so for that section the train would need alternative power such as diesel or battery.

 

[JonathanH]

How about a GWR-operated Guildford-Oxford via Reading stopper, using platforms 13-15 at Reading, or, alternatively, Guildford-Didcot Parkway when the 769s come in, to avoid having to change power mode twice?

It is an option but it would need to take the place between Reading and Didcot of the existing London to Didcot stopping service, perhaps if the Elizabeth Line ran all services calling East of Reading, with those all starting at Reading or Maidenhead.

 

[zwk500]

I believe that there is a fly-under going from the Wokingham lines to the relief lines: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/reading#T_RDNGSTN
(Link is for Open Train Times's Reading map)

Yes, but the difficult bit is getting the gap across the Up Wokingham and Up relief to line up such that you don't spend 15 minutes sitting around waiting for the road. It's also single track, which won't help a regular service. XC did it 1 time per day in each direction, I believe. And that's before you start looking at getting a Platform at Reading, once Crossrail is in full service.

 

[Chiltern006]

Another one which strikes me as not combined, however they’re must be a reason

Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds. both TPE. any reason why they’re not combined?

 

[JonathanH]

Another one which strikes me as not combined, however they’re must be a reason

Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds. both TPE. any reason why they’re not combined?

Yes, the paths for a stopping service don't coincide at Huddersfield. It was too unreliable to work with the passing opportunities on the route.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sheffield - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Bradford

Good luck with that one. It wouldn't be too difficult towards Sheffield but going the other way would be tricky, as you need platform 4 (which in normal pre-Covid times was used as two separate platforms) to be free. You've got a fair bit of single line and potential for delay too.

I'll refer you to my earlier suggestion of merging Huddersfield to Bradford with the Hull to Halifax. Saving one unit for the relatively small price of adding a call at Low Moor to the Hull service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2022 ==

Another one which strikes me as not combined, however they’re must be a reason

Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds. both TPE. any reason why they’re not combined?

They tried it in 2018. It was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

For example:
Ormskirk-Preston and Preston-Blackpool South could probably be combined with little problems

Strood-Tonbridge and Tonbridge-Redhill
Would give surrey a link with north Kent, something it hasn’t had in a long time (ever?)

Sudbury-Marks Tey and Ipswich-Felixstowe
This one im not too sure about ie paths between Marks Tey and Ipswich. It would take up more stock but I feel it might be useful.

Any other ideas?

Here's my similar thread from a few years ago...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...extensions-to-regional-train-services.211253/

 

[TheBigD]

I'll tell you one I would never have suggested... Newquay to Par and Truro to Falmouth, but for some reasons TPTB think it's a good idea.

Extra infrastructure is also provided, extra platform at Newquay and an extra passing loop (Goss moor?). One of the main benefits is connecting Newquay to the college at Penryn and opportunities at Truro etc etc. Also allows for the extra summer trains to run alongside, instead of replacing the local service.

I'm not local to the area but like you I'm sceptical given that's its likely to be around 75-80 minutes from Newquay to Truro, and around 90-95 to Penrhyn, that doesn't sound to enticing ing to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2022 ==

Again, possible but given the vast majority of traffic will be for Lincoln (the ECML being the far more attractive route for longer journeys) will this actually help people or will it just be a delay magnet?

There's already a few through services though if you went hourly all day with a good path you'd have around 30 minutes turnaround at both Doncaster and Peterborough so very little performance risk. As others have posted, I doubt there is that much cross Lincoln demand.
Hte main risk is the same as today, when a liner decides to sit down and stop the job for a few hours to admire the stunning, awe inspiring Lincolnshire countryside...

 

[Basil Jet]

Ipswich to Lowestoft and Lowestoft to Norwich. I think the stock is similar and the frequency not that far off, and people in Beccles would probably enjoy a through service to the city of Norwich, which is nearer to them (by rail) than the town of Ipswich (although for some reason the shorter journey seems to cost a fair bit more).

 

[A S Leib]

Birmingham New Street - Leicester and Leicester - Nottingham / Lincoln / Grimsby (so Coventry - Nottingham can be done with one change at Nuneaton until direct services are restored)

If it could be made hourly and reliable enough, could regular through Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster services be viable as part of a 'Thameslink / EMR services' only ticket between London and Doncaster similarly to the WMR / TfW only Euston - Manchester fares? (On the other hand, it's probably easier just making a 'not LNER' fare including Thameslink, EMR, Hull Trains and Grand Central; and it would have to be massively cheaper to convince people to take a 3½ hour journey with a change over a 1 hour 40 minute direct service, with an even bigger time difference to get to Leeds or further north.)

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if combining Leeds to Doncaster and Doncaster to Lincoln would actually be a better theoretical combination, leaving Peterborough to Lincoln as it is.