Trivia: Most Expensive Service £/mile anytime return

[Moonshot]

Its is worth noting in the context of this thread that the average fare paid for any single journey on the UK network is just a shade over £5......

As always, when you get a thread on the topic of " expensive rail fares ", the above fact is often forgotten about.

Virgin Trains gets a mention ( as they always do ) - and indeed their fares can be pricey. But the pricey fares tend to be the ones on demand on the day, and I know for a fact that less than 25% of the total fare basket of Virgin Trains are anytime tickets....indeed if you look at the turnover/passenger split, the average fare paid by a Virgin passenger for a single journey is £30.

One other often quoted fact is that UK fares tend to be more expensive than they are on Continental Europe.....but what people fail to point out is that Continental Europe subsidises its rail network at higher levels than the UK does.

 

[crispy1978]

Garforth to East Garforth

47 chain journey
£2.30 anytime return
£3.91 per mile

 

[AndyNLondon]

Indeed, or perhaps if there are no returns available as in this case simply offer up the singles option only. Or maybe even offer an open return for these shorter journeys, at say a slightly higher price than a day return but still cheaper than two singles.

Whilst most folk on here would see something like that & make the correct choices, other less savvy would-be pasengers might see something like & think that everything they've heard & read about rail travel is true & give it a miss. I wonder if people have actually been put off from travelling by train because of oddities like this?

In fairness, the NRE site does default to showing the "two singles" option at £7 for Shipley to Leeds - and with such a large difference, surely it's pretty obvious that the £88 fare is not what you're looking for isn't it?

It's easy to look at a case like this and say that the Rover ticket shouldn't be shown because it's obviously not the right ticket, but what of less clear-cut cases? What rule would you use to tell the website when to show a more expensive but more flexible option, and when not to? (A maximum difference before hiding it would be simple, but I imagine there would be plenty of "but what about..." cases close to any sensible threshold. The "mixing deck" booking sites do perhaps handle the cases where there are lots of options in a nicer way than the NRE site, but are not as simple to use.)

 

[Deerfold]

My Context is travelling a decent commute to a big city for work. NOT SEASON

So if you want to live say an hour from a city, how much does a peak return cost £/per mile, so you can travel in a few days a week

Of course if you were travelling a few days a week from Market Harborough you'd get the 7 day season at £185.90 which is rather more reasonable at just 1.57 times the day return price.

 

[londiscape]

I hope not too many people have to commute from Manchester to London, if they do, I think we have the world wrong!

I had to do that a lot with my last company, had offices near Manchester as well as London. Off-peak returns weren't so bad (around £80 IIRC) so we scheduled accordingly to avoid peak times, if unavoidable we just went up the night before and got a hotel - it was much cheaper.

 

[t o m]

Yes, sorry for my London centricity, Market Harborough to St Pancras

An interesting comparable is Huntingdon to KGX on FCC which is somewhat cheaper!

Hello David, a fellow Harborian. Another comparison is Rugby to Euston. An anytime return is priced £69 for a distance of 82m 40ch, compared to Market Harborough to St Pancras where an anytime return is £118.50 for a distance of 82m 62ch.

 

[All Line Rover]

Hello David, a fellow Harborian. Another comparison is Rugby to Euston. An anytime return is priced £69 for a distance of 82m 40ch, compared to Market Harborough to St Pancras where an anytime return is £118.50 for a distance of 82m 62ch.

An Anytime Return from Rugby to London is £128, not £69.

The £69 fare is a 'London Midland' only ticket. London Midland operate a slower service and on their fastest services Rugby passengers have no hope of getting a seat.

 

[t o m]

An Anytime Return from Rugby to London is £128, not £69.

The £69 fare is a 'London Midland' only ticket. London Midland operate a slower service and on their fastest services Rugby passengers have no hope of getting a seat.

Ok, it's not a route I usually travel, just the result I got on the NRE app. The service that came up was 0834 Rugby to Euston which it says takes 1 hour 3 minutes, about the same time as from Harborough to St Pancras. Perhaps I should have done some more thorough research!

 

[Hadders]

Yes, sorry for my London centricity, Market Harborough to St Pancras

An interesting comparable is Huntingdon to KGX on FCC which is somewhat cheaper!


I hope not too many people have to commute from Manchester to London, if they do, I think we have the world wrong!

This is not an appropriate comparison in my opinion as Huntingdon is served by FCC 'commuter' trains only compared to Market Harborough being 'inter city'.

Also, Market Harborough to St Pancras is 83 miles but Huntingdon is 59 miles from Kings Cross. A better comparison is Peterborough which is 76 miles from Kings Cross.

An Anytime Return fro Peterborough to Kings Cross is £99 (any permitted) or £54.50 (FCC only).

 

[adrock1976]

I remember a few years ago that it was an eye - watering £1000 from Newquay to Kyle of Lochalsh, a distance of 877 miles via Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Edinburgh, and Perth.

If I have calculated this correctly, this works out at £1.14 per mile. Seems reasonable if that is the case, and that it would most likely cost more than that in fuel if driving the exact same route.

In peace

Adam

 

[dcsprior]

I remember a few years ago that it was an eye - watering £1000 from Newquay to Kyle of Lochalsh, a distance of 877 miles via Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Edinburgh, and Perth.

If I have calculated this correctly, this works out at £1.14 per mile. Seems reasonable if that is the case, and that it would most likely cost more than that in fuel if driving the exact same route.

In peace

Adam

Umm, have you perhaps made a decimal place error when it comes to the cost of fuel? By my calculations (based on fuel being £1.36/l) that price per mile would translate to 5.4mpg

Of course the total cost of running a car, or even just the total marginal cost, is a different story

 

[Howardh]

What happens if you buy an advanced single from Truro to Penzance and it only has one day on it....and you have to change trains and will arrive the following day (don't think you can do it in one day??)? Would the guards checking the ticket on day 2 realise it's still the same journey, or would they fuss that it's a day out, or can't that ticket be bought in the first place?

 

[Lee_Again]

But we still don't know where your original service was going? Market Harborough to where?

Surely if the OP means a 'Return' then the destination is Market Harborough.

"Can I have return please"

"Where to sir"

"back here"

 

[Bald Rick]

What happens if you buy an advanced single from Truro to Penzance and it only has one day on it....and you have to change trains and will arrive the following day (don't think you can do it in one day??)? Would the guards checking the ticket on day 2 realise it's still the same journey, or would they fuss that it's a day out, or can't that ticket be bought in the first place?

It is often claimed that travelling to the far south west is like going back in time, but Truro and Penzance aren't that far apart surely!

 

[Howardh]

It is often claimed that travelling to the far south west is like going back in time, but Truro and Penzance aren't that far apart surely!

Oooops
Thurso!!
That's what I meant!!
Although travelling from Bury to Rochdale means you have to put your watch back 20 years

 

[ess]

I've seen weird high fares proposed by booking engines for a return which on investigation turn out to be Rovers. I wonder how many people fall for that rather than buying two singles.

 

[Bantamzen]

In fairness, the NRE site does default to showing the "two singles" option at £7 for Shipley to Leeds - and with such a large difference, surely it's pretty obvious that the £88 fare is not what you're looking for isn't it?

It's easy to look at a case like this and say that the Rover ticket shouldn't be shown because it's obviously not the right ticket, but what of less clear-cut cases? What rule would you use to tell the website when to show a more expensive but more flexible option, and when not to? (A maximum difference before hiding it would be simple, but I imagine there would be plenty of "but what about..." cases close to any sensible threshold. The "mixing deck" booking sites do perhaps handle the cases where there are lots of options in a nicer way than the NRE site, but are not as simple to use.)

I know it's pretty obvious for people used to booking through these sites, but you have to remember that not everybody is. People travelling to & from a destination tend to expect to buy return options, so when the site throws up a set of options as in this case it can confuse folk. I do plenty of application building for work, so I'm only too aware how important it is to not display options that are not relevant as this can throw some people off.

It won't be an easy thing to fix, but it's things sort of things that work their way into urban legends about how expensive it is to travel by train. But this scenario could be perhaps resolved by selling period returns for these shorter journeys. So for example the current peak return for Shipley - Leeds is £5.80 & two singles £7.00 so why not have a period return for say £6.50? That way the TOC covers the potential return by a peak service, as well as preventing inappropriate options being thrown up by journey planners.

 

[Deerfold]

I've seen weird high fares proposed by booking engines for a return which on investigation turn out to be Rovers. I wonder how many people fall for that rather than buying two singles.

Probably very few as NRE doesn't actually sell tickets and most booking sites don't offer rovers by default.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So for example the current peak return for Shipley - Leeds is £5.80 & two singles £7.00 so why not have a period return for say £6.50? That way the TOC covers the potential return by a peak service, as well as preventing inappropriate options being thrown up by journey planners.

I'd like that - typically I get two single Steeton - Leeds tickets (sometimes shorter journeys on the same line) a week - but I'm sure the TOC would rather I continue paying that.

 

[Statto]

On London Underground, Leicester Square to Covent Garden is 0.16 mile, and the zone 1 cash fare is £4.70, a rate of £29.37 per mile.

This is not a completely improbable journey because visitors to London from overseas etc, without Oyster and not knowing the geography, may well make such a trip without realising the impracticality of it.

It is a glaring example of how coarse fare zones can drive away short-distance traffic, which a generation or two ago was a significant part of the load on urban systems. The example above at Canary Wharf is another; although it is such a short distance it is across a bridge, and it's quite a long way round if you have to walk.

That was featured in the Map Man programme, that it was quicker to walk Leicester Square-Covent Garden, but many tourists might not know this. Charing Cross-Embankment is another example where it'd be quicker to walk than get the Tube.

 

[plastictaffy]

As a little aside, and sort of on the same theme - if you travel from Northampton to London on the train, it'll cost 31.20 for an anytime ticket. If you do Wellingborough to London, (almost exactly the same distance, taking around the same amount of time) it'll cost you 57 notes.........
That's madness, too.

 

[Hadders]

But the service from Northampton i far more frequent than from Wellingborough!

There will always be these sort on anomalies as we have market based pricing rather than distance based pricing.

 

[ASharpe]

So for example the current peak return for Shipley - Leeds is £5.80 & two singles £7.00 so why not have a period return for say £6.50? That way the TOC covers the potential return by a peak service, as well as preventing inappropriate options being thrown up by journey planners.

That would have a potential for fraud. People buying period returns and using them repeatedly until they are eventually clipped.

I would much prefer the cost of singles to fall to maybe half of a return, even if it is online only+smartcard/print-at-home to minimize retail costs and temptation to evade. East coast do it half price already.

 

[Yew]

Beeston to Attenborough, A princely £2.20 for a journey of 1.4 miles, working out at £1.57 per mile

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Beeston to Attenborough, A princely £2.20 for a journey of 1.4 miles, working out at £1.57 per mile

How about Newhaven Town to Newhaven Harbour. Distance = 26 chains or approximately 1/3rd of a mile. Cost of a single is £2.60, working out at £0.10 per chain, or £8.00 per mile!

 

[TUC]

I had to do that a lot with my last company, had offices near Manchester as well as London. Off-peak returns weren't so bad (around £80 IIRC) so we scheduled accordingly to avoid peak times, if unavoidable we just went up the night before and got a hotel - it was much cheaper.

What many companies do, given that the time of the start of the day's work is predictable, its when meetings will finish at the end of the day that isn't, is to buy an advance ticket for the outward journey and an anytime single for the return, so significantly reducing the cost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would have a potential for fraud. People buying period returns and using them repeatedly until they are eventually clipped.

Another version then of penalising the passenger simply because the right staffing arrangements aren't in place for revenue protection. Not customer-friendly to say the least. It severely penalises passengers who need to make journeys that don't involve returning the same day and which happen to be ones for which only day returns are available.