Trivia - Lines where "Up" doesnt head toward London

[WirralLine]

Just reading another thread about the history of the terms "Up" and "Down" referring to line direction. Generally speaking, Up is to London. As we know this isn't necessarily the case. I did have a quick search, I assume this has been done before on the forum but couldn't find anything.

For example - the Welsh Marches line is, if i remember rightly, Up to Shrewsbury and Down to Cardiff (where the line branches off the mainline near Newport, the Up there is of course heading to London, so Up continues all the way up the Marches.)

Another example is Merseyrail where Up is always to Liverpool. The Chester/Ellesmere Port line was originally Up toward Chester (heading away from Liverpool as the line was originally heading to Paddington) however this changed I believe with electrification to Hooton in the 80s.

Any other examples?

 

[Western Gaffer]

There are plenty of other transverse routes which don't head either towards or away from London (Glasgow-Edinburgh, trans-Pennine, Bristol-Birmingham-Derby, Oxford-Cambridge or remnants thereof, Reading-Tonbridge, and many more no doubt), so other rules have to apply to these, wholly or in part.

 

[rower40]

The Elizabeth line uses ‘Eastbound’ and ‘Westbound’. EB becomes ‘Down’ when it joins the Great Eastern at Stratford, and WB becomes’Down’ when it joins the Great Western at Portobello Jn.

 

[enginedin]

I have been meaning to ask a similar question for a very long time, but thought I'd be ridiculed for asking a stupid question...

> Generally speaking, Up is to London

case in point, I actually didn't know this.

2 quick example questions:

- for a Betws-y-Coed - Llandudno service, which crosses the north wales main line, which is the "up" direction?
- Are all services which pass through Edinburgh (CrossCountry and LNER going north) always considered going "down"?

 

[rower40]

Edinburgh to Haymarket is ‘down’; all trains onwards to Haymarket West are ‘down’, both on the E&G to Polmont and the Fife to Dalmeny. Anything turning left at Haymarket to go to Slateford and Midcalder becomes ‘up’.

There are very many triangular junctions where ‘up’ becomes’down’ and v.v. It’s just a matter of defining a direction for each stretch of line. (As per the Sectional Appendix or Timetable Planning Rules.)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...for a Betws-y-Coed - Llandudno service, which crosses the north wales main line, which is the "up" direction?

'Up' in the direction of Llandudno Junction, 'down' in the direction of Betws-y-Coed. Obviously, mostly single track. The changeover point is, I think, the point where the branch line joins the main line. After passing through Llandudno Junction station, it becomes 'down' if continuing in the direction of Llandudno station and 'up' when travelling back again.

 

[jfollows]

The Lancashire & Yorkshire railway was/is ‘up’ towards Manchester Victoria.

 

[Sorcerer]

The general rule as I understand it is that 'Up' is always towards the most major location. So for much of Scotland the Up direction is towards Edinburgh while the Down direction is from Edinburgh, except for the ECML and WCML where Up instead runs towards London. On the Liverpool-Manchester routes Up is towards Manchester, though I'm not sure how it works beyond this.

 

[Merle Haggard]

'Up' in the direction of Llandudno Junction, 'down' in the direction of Betws-y-Coed. Obviously, mostly single track. The changeover point is, I think, the point where the branch line joins the main line. After passing through Llandudno Junction station, it becomes 'down' if continuing in the direction of Llandudno station and 'up' when travelling back again.

It's interesting that Down is up the valley in North Wales because, in South Wales, lines climbing up the Valleys (generally, originally the smaller Welsh railway companies later grouped into the GW) were designated the 'Up' lines. It seemed to be the practice of all the companies so probably a convention. I don't know whether it applied to the bigger companies, e.g. the LNWR downhill from the MT&A to Talywain and Aberschan.

 

[Peter0124]

If the rules were reversed (ie down is London) then it would make more sense geographically as most places are north of London

 

[swt_passenger]

Edinburgh to Haymarket is ‘down’; all trains onwards to Haymarket West are ‘down’, both on the E&G to Polmont and the Fife to Dalmeny. Anything turning left at Haymarket to go to Slateford and Midcalder becomes ‘up’.

There are very many triangular junctions where ‘up’ becomes’down’ and v.v. It’s just a matter of defining a direction for each stretch of line. (As per the Sectional Appendix or Timetable Planning Rules.)

Surely every complete triangular junction must include a change of direction on one side, ie not just many of them?

 

[rower40]

Surely every complete triangular junction must include a change of direction on one side, ie not just many of them?

Yes, agreed. I wasn’t thinking straight. Or possibly triangular.

There might even be a junction where every side includes a direction change…

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The western side of the Laira triangle in Plymouth is up towards North Road station. The Gunnislake branch was up (to Waterloo) towards Bere Alston and down to Gunnislake; but is now down to Gunnislake throughout.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are plenty of other transverse routes which don't head either towards or away from London (Glasgow-Edinburgh

Not sure Glasgow-Edinburgh is the best example; Because for many decades trains arriving at Waverley from the West continued up the ECML to London. Mostly from Glasgow Queen Street but also (for a while) from Glasgow Central. And when Lumo's Glasgow service starts, from Queen Street again!

On my local line, the Neilston branch, Up is from Glasgow to Neilston; It would have possible in the past to continue through Uplawmoor towards London via connecting lines at Lugton, although I doubt whether any trains actually did.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Not sure Glasgow-Edinburgh is the best example; Because for many decades trains arriving at Waverley from the West continued up the ECML to London. Mostly from Glasgow Queen Street but also (for a while) from Glasgow Central. And when Lumo's Glasgow service starts, from Queen Street again!

I didn't say it was the best example, but just included it on an unprioritised list!

However, you're right of course that arrivals from the west at Waverley can continue towards London, and that some do, but the point was really that the national network isn't entirely London-centric and that alternative rules need to be in place for many lines, albeit these are usually based on the same principle of a major centre. Given the number of routes via which it's possible to travel from Edinburgh to Glasgow, it would surprise me if they were all 'down' all the way to Glasgow, but happy to be corrected!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Given the number of routes via which it's possible to travel from Edinburgh to Glasgow, it would surprise me if they were all 'down' all the way to Glasgow, but happy to be corrected!

Think that might actually be the case, certainly when approaching Glasgow. Into Glasgow Queen Street (High Level) via Bishopriggs uses the 'Down E&G' line. Via Robroyston uses the 'Down Stepps', whereas into Glasgow Queen Street (Low Level) via Bellgrove uses the 'Down Airdrie'. Across at Glasgow Central (Low Level), the final approach uses the 'Down Argyle'. And routes into Glasgow Central (High Level) from the Edinburgh side of Central Scotland are likely to use either the 'Down Main' or perhaps the 'Down Holytown' / 'Down Shotts'. Have I possibly missed any?

 

[Western Gaffer]

Think that might actually be the case, certainly when approaching Glasgow. Into Glasgow Queen Street (High Level) via Bishopriggs uses the 'Down E&G' line. Via Robroyston uses the 'Down Stepps', whereas into Glasgow Queen Street (Low Level) via Bellgrove uses the 'Down Airdrie'. Across at Glasgow Central (Low Level), the final approach uses the 'Down Argyle'. And routes into Glasgow Central (High Level) from the Edinburgh side of Central Scotland are likely to use either the 'Down Main' or perhaps the 'Down Holytown' / 'Down Shotts'. Have I possibly missed any?

....in which case I stand corrected!

 

[jamesst]

Just reading another thread about the history of the terms "Up" and "Down" referring to line direction. Generally speaking, Up is to London. As we know this isn't necessarily the case. I did have a quick search, I assume this has been done before on the forum but couldn't find anything.

For example - the Welsh Marches line is, if i remember rightly, Up to Shrewsbury and Down to Cardiff (where the line branches off the mainline near Newport, the Up there is of course heading to London, so Up continues all the way up the Marches.)

Another example is Merseyrail where Up is always to Liverpool. The Chester/Ellesmere Port line was originally Up toward Chester (heading away from Liverpool as the line was originally heading to Paddington) however this changed I believe with electrification to Hooton in the 80s.

Any other examples?

The Chester line is still up towards Chester from Hooton towards Chester.
From Chester to Hooton its the down Birkenhead, Hooton to Hamilton Sq up Chester and Hamilton Sq to Liverpool the up West Kirby

 

[MP33]

Up to London, pre-dates the Railways as it was used for Stagecoach routes.

 

[MadMac]

I didn't say it was the best example, but just included it on an unprioritised list!

However, you're right of course that arrivals from the west at Waverley can continue towards London, and that some do, but the point was really that the national network isn't entirely London-centric and that alternative rules need to be in place for many lines, albeit these are usually based on the same principle of a major centre. Given the number of routes via which it's possible to travel from Edinburgh to Glasgow, it would surprise me if they were all 'down' all the way to Glasgow, but happy to be corrected!

When GNER ran through to Central, they were Down as far as Haymarket then Up to Carstairs and Down to Central.

 

[Rail Ranger]

It was up towards Derby on the Midland Railway (e.g. on the Birmingham and Gloucester line). It was up towards Manchester on the Cheshire Lines Railway (even though the company HQ was in Liverpool and mileposts were measured from Liverpool).

 

[Falcon1200]

it would surprise me if they were all 'down' all the way to Glasgow

As @MadMac says, trains from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central are on the Up line from Haymarket East Jc to Carstairs, or Midcalder Jc if going via Shotts.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In southern Scotland, Up on the North British Railway/LNER would have been towards London via the ECML, and on the Caledonian/LMS via the WCML. It may be nearly 80 years since they both became part of British Railways, but what would be the point of changing?

Thus you would expect a down/up switch for trains somewhere between Waverley (on the old NBR) and Carstairs (on the Caley)

 

[Springs Branch]

According to my Quail Track Maps (1996 vintage, so not exactly up-to-date), the Cathcart Circle has conventional but arbitrary Up & Down lines (Up is clockwise) plus additional Outer and Inner designations which would help avoid confusion.

Outer & Inner, of course, is also used on the Glasgow Subway.

 

[Falcon1200]

the Cathcart Circle has conventional but arbitrary Up & Down lines (Up is clockwise) plus additional Outer and Inner designations which would help avoid confusion.

The lines are referred to as Up Outer and Down Inner.

 

[Flange Squeal]

There are plenty of other transverse routes which don't head either towards or away from London (Glasgow-Edinburgh, trans-Pennine, Bristol-Birmingham-Derby, Oxford-Cambridge or remnants thereof, Reading-Tonbridge, and many more no doubt), so other rules have to apply to these, wholly or in part.

Regarding ‘Reading-Tonbridge’, the Reading/Redhill section is generally ‘Up’ Reading to Redhill and ‘Down’ Redhill to Reading, bar the short shared section between Shalford Junction to Guildford over the Portsmouth Direct line.

The line curves northwards into Redhill and the mileposts from Reading are measured from one of the South Eastern Railway’s termini (Charing Cross or London Bridge from memory), bar the section between Shalford Junction and the site of the former Ash Junction.

So while today’s services don’t go to London, the line itself does and that’s why the individual running lines are assigned up/down and mileposts measured accordingly.

 

[swt_passenger]

A triangular junction can be quite large geographically, so as an example I’ll use Eastleigh, Fareham, and St Denys. The line with the necessary change of direction is the one from Fareham to St Denys, and the location is at St Denys station. Any trains that have come from the Portsmouth area are up trains while logically heading west, on joining the main lines they are down direction into Southampton.

 

[Annetts key]

Generally speaking, Up is to London. As we know this isn't necessarily the case. I did have a quick search, I assume this has been done before on the forum but couldn't find anything.

I would say that using "generally speaking " is inaccurate. Because there are so many examples of Up NOT being towards London.

Further, the Up direction in some lines has changed over time. So what was once an up line is now a down line. Along with lines or parts of lines closing or opening.

The branch and junction chord lines around the Bristol area alone has a number of examples where you cannot get to London directly in the Up direction.

 

[zwk500]

I would say that using "generally speaking " is inaccurate. Because there are so many examples of Up NOT being towards London.

Further, the Up direction in some lines has changed over time. So what was once an up line is now a down line. Along with lines or parts of lines closing or opening.

The branch and junction chord lines around the Bristol area alone has a number of examples where you cannot get to London directly in the Up direction.

I don't think the generally speaking is inaccurate because although there are many examples that don't follow the convention, the overwhelming majority of route mileage does. Even in cases where for historic reasons it would require an indirect route (e.g. Fareham is Up to London via Eastleigh, when the Portsmouth Direct Line might seem the more obvious route for 'Up' trains).

It would be interesting if anybody's got the data/time to know the proportion of Route KM or Stations where 'up' is not a route to London (further broken to 'at all' and 'without using a down line'), but alas I do not.

 

[Skiddaw]

If the rules were reversed (ie down is London) then it would make more sense geographically as most places are north of London

Absolutely. I can never quite get to grips with the WCML being 'up' towards Euston. After all, it's 'down' south, not 'up' south isn't it?