TRIVIA: Isolated self-sufficient countries

[AY1975]

Following on from the long-running thread on the EU referendum result and aftermath at www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=132044, does anyone know of any countries that are largely or completely self-sufficient, and that are largely isolated from the rest of the world?

That is to say, they import and export very little or nothing, most or all of what they need they produce themselves (be it food or consumer durables such as cars, clothes and furniture), very few people from that country have ever left the country, whether on holiday, on business or to emigrate, and very few people from elsewhere have ever visited the country or settled there.

I would guess that Cuba, North Korea, Pitcairn and some of the African countries would be not all that far off (except that a lot of tourists visit Cuba, and even Pitcairn uses the New Zealand Dollar as its currency, I believe).

Could the UK realistically survive as an isolated self-sufficient country?

 

[DarloRich]

None are truly self sufficient. North Korea imports food and fuel from China for instance.

 

[Harbornite]

Following on from the long-running thread on the EU referendum result and

I would guess that Cuba, North Korea, Pitcairn and some of the African countries would be not all that far off (except that a lot of tourists visit Cuba, and even Pitcairn uses the New Zealand Dollar as its currency, I believe).

Not sure I'd count Pitcairn as a country, what with it being a BOT. However, I didn't know that they use the New Zealand Dollar, quite unusual in my opinion!

 

[HSTEd]

I have considered whether the UK could go full blown Hermit Kingdom as a result of some economic or environmental catastrophe in the next century.
I believe the answer is likely yes.

Single cell protein using feedstocks derived from electrolysis or cracking could provide animal feed - which would leave fuel self sufficiency within reach, whilst magnesium and aluminium available in the UK could provide the required metals for a very wide range of consumer products - without mining or supply limits in the later case. [China clay has been explored as an aluminium ore in the past - there is currently major work ongoing in Russia on it]

Uranium could be obtained from seawater or the marginally economic resources in the Orkneys and reactors could be built that would require negligible resources from outside the UK - stainless steel cladding and prestressed concrete or cast iron pressure vessels - like AGR sucxesors.

It would be poorer than it is now but a reasonable standard of living appears very much achievable

 

[thejuggler]

You don't have to go back that long to the days when Countries thought they could.

I visited Russia this summer, there were no queues for food because they realised not that many years ago that international trade was probably a good idea.

 

[yorksrob]

Why is it assumed that just because the UK has voted to leave the European Union, it has chosen to become a hermit kingdom ?

Surely it would be more likely to aspire to be like one of the other Western countries that aren't within the EU, such as Canada or New Zealand.

Of course, there is a good question as to whether the UK could support its population with its natural resources (if we were to embark on a change in lifestyle).

 

[AM9]

Why is it assumed that just because the UK has voted to leave the European Union, it has chosen to become a hermit kingdom ?

Surely it would be more likely to aspire to be like one of the other Western countries that aren't within the EU, such as Canada or New Zealand.

Of course, there is a good question as to whether the UK could support its population with its natural resources (if we were to embark on a change in lifestyle).

The UK might well aspire to be like New Zealand or Canada, but with a population density 16 times greater than New Zealand and 75 times that of Canada, we would be severely lacking in natural resources needed for anything like our current lifestyle, - that's why we prospered as just the UK when we controlled a third of the world's natural resources by imperial control of an empire. We used the populations of those countires as a free proxy workforce to give us the benefit of their minerals and crops.
Apart from inside the head of Boris Johnson et al, those days have gone and we have to accept that we either become a co-operative part of a greater economic entity, or we hang onto the coat tails of any power that finds it convenient to use our limited resources. That may become obvious to many more when our bright-eyed and bushy-tailed negotiators go into the big wide world and try and cut deals anywhere near as beneficial to the UK as we have become used to under the EU umbrella.

 

[Groningen]

What a stupid thought. If you are not allowing us (the World except the UK) to export to the UK; do you than really think that we are waiting for your products.

 

[yorksrob]

The UK might well aspire to be like New Zealand or Canada, but with a population density 16 times greater than New Zealand and 75 times that of Canada, we would be severely lacking in natural resources needed for anything like our current lifestyle, - that's why we prospered as just the UK when we controlled a third of the world's natural resources by imperial control of an empire. We used the populations of those countires as a free proxy workforce to give us the benefit of their minerals and crops.

It's interesting that you mention our unusually high population density, yet as soon as anyone mentions a "declining" population, this is viewed as an economic disaster. Personally I don't think it would be a bad thing in the long term if as a country we were to manage the population down somehow, although we would have to tailor resources more effectively to support a larger proportion of retired people during such a time.

In terms of the EU, we haven't had the benefit of using their populations and resources for free, we've had to sell things to them, so I'm guessing our negotiators will be attempting to create similar arrangements. I guess we're just unlucky that our nearest trading block has come with a political project that the country's population has never really been interested in.

 

[yorksrob]

What a stupid thought. If you are not allowing us (the World except the UK) to export to the UK; do you than really think that we are waiting for your products.

I think we're having the same discussion that the European community as a whole has been having over the past sixty years. After the particularly bad winter of 1947, the European community felt it desirable to be self-sufficient in food, hence the advent of the common agricultural policy. This didn't imply that it wanted to become a hermit society cut off from trading with the rest of the world.

 

[deltic]

Depends on how you define self-sufficiency - those countries with the lowest proportionate trade in relation to GDP are a surprising bunch and include USA, Brazil, Japan and Australia alongside the likes of Sudan, Myanmar and Pakistan.

UN FAO deem the following as achieving food self sufficiency France, Canada, Australia, Russia, India, Argentina, Myanmar , Thailand, and the USA. Uk imports about 40% of its food, about the same proportion as we waste!

 

[AM9]

It's interesting that you mention our unusually high population density, yet as soon as anyone mentions a "declining" population, this is viewed as an economic disaster.

Our population isn't unusually high, we're 50th in the world (as a soverign nation) and most of the developed European nations are similar or not much lower in the table e.g Germany 58th, Italy 65th, etc.. It's just that we have insufficient land and mineral resources to sustain the nation in anything like we have now, and such a drastic change (not for the better) would mean the removal of whoever's idea it was from office, particularly when such economies tend to favour those with wealth at the expense of the poor even more than ours currently does.

Personally I don't think it would be a bad thing in the long term if as a country we were to manage the population down somehow, although we would have to tailor resources more effectively to support a larger proportion of retired people during such a time.

'Somehow' is the problem. China tried it the brutal way and has now given up. Cutting off all immigration wouldn't make that much difference, particularly as we become a lower earning nation in comparison with our recent position in Europe. No government has seen fit to make any serious attempt to reduce extra-EU immigration because it will further depress our economy and make the support of the elederly even more difficult.

In terms of the EU, we haven't had the benefit of using their populations and resources for free, we've had to sell things to them, so I'm guessing our negotiators will be attempting to create similar arrangements. I guess we're just unlucky that our nearest trading block has come with a political project that the country's population has never really been interested in.

We have been selling things to them because it brings money into the country. They have been buying things from us because like us they can't provide everything internally. That's why the single market was created to easy this mutual trading arrangement. Had we not had a slight majority to leave the EU, we would have been able to prevent a unanimous vote from taking the next step in that direction. Now, we will probably have to do a 'Norway' where the rules are for us to obey without any say in them.

 

[yorksrob]

Our population isn't unusually high, we're 50th in the world (as a soverign nation) and most of the developed European nations are similar or not much lower in the table e.g Germany 58th, Italy 65th, etc.. It's just that we have insufficient land and mineral resources to sustain the nation in anything like we have now, and such a drastic change (not for the better) would mean the removal of whoever's idea it was from office, particularly when such economies tend to favour those with wealth at the expense of the poor even more than ours currently does.



'Somehow' is the problem. China tried it the brutal way and has now given up. Cutting off all immigration wouldn't make that much difference, particularly as we become a lower earning nation in comparison with our recent position in Europe. No government has seen fit to make any serious attempt to reduce extra-EU immigration because it will further depress our economy and make the support of the elederly even more difficult.



We have been selling things to them because it brings money into the country. They have been buying things from us because like us they can't provide everything internally. That's why the single market was created to easy this mutual trading arrangement. Had we not had a slight majority to leave the EU, we would have been able to prevent a unanimous vote from taking the next step in that direction. Now, we will probably have to do a 'Norway' where the rules are for us to obey without any say in them.

I never suggested we had an unusually high population. I said we have a high population density, which is precisely what you have repeated.

As other posters have suggested, there is clearly an optimum level of self sufficiency, at least in some goods, which is desirable before you get to isolation. Many western countries achieve some element of this, albeit with more land and resources. I tend to think that we haven't got this balance right, compared to some of our partner countries.

For us, we do have a lot of potential in terms of renewable energy, so one aspect we could look at could be to exploit the wind and tides more, to cut down on fuel imports.

In terms of managing the population, perhaps it is a cultural shift we need. We could do more to teach people from an early age that procreation isn't the be all and end all. I note that some western countries are already managing with declining populations, so there will have to be a way to work with it.

In terms of the EU, we may well have prevented the next unanimous vote towards political integration. However, the fact that such votes tend to be unanimous without us should tell us something about the direction of travel. There would only be so long we could hold up everyone else - although I was willing to give the two speed Europe negotiated by Cameron a try.

 

[radamfi]

For us, we do have a lot of potential in terms of renewable energy, so one aspect we could look at could be to exploit the wind and tides more, to cut down on fuel imports.

It's not efficient for each European country to have its own independent electricity supply. A large proportion of the population of our continent lives in an area roughly bounded by Preston, Berlin, Rome, Paris and Cardiff. A large proportion of that lives in the so-called "Blue Banana".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

The most obvious sources of renewable electricity are in thinly populated countries such as Iceland and Norway, which are outside that area. They've got so much electricity that they don't know what to do with it. So it makes sense to build cables from those places to where the people live, and that is what is happening.

 

[takno]

It's not efficient for each European country to have its own independent electricity supply. A large proportion of the population of our continent lives in an area roughly bounded by Preston, Berlin, Rome, Paris and Cardiff. A large proportion of that lives in the so-called "Blue Banana".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

The most obvious sources of renewable electricity are in thinly populated countries such as Iceland and Norway, which are outside that area. They've got so much electricity that they don't know what to do with it. So it makes sense to build cables from those places to where the people live, and that is what is happening.

That's all going to break when the electricity gets held up for 3 hours in customs. They'll probably have to turn the M20 into a giant battery just to cope.

 

[AM9]

I never suggested we had an unusually high population. I said we have a high population density, which is precisely what you have repeated.

OK, my typo, I hadn't noticed that I had left the word 'density' out so it should read "Our population density isn't unusually high". That ties in with the position of the 50th in the world. If it was by population then I would have said the 21st. If you discount many of the small states that are virtually all urban e.g. The Vatican, Monaco, Gibraltar, Jersey etc., counting only the top 100 states (with populations over about 8 million), then even then, the UK is the 21st. There is sufficient living space for the UK population, - it's just that there isn't the land for us to be truly self sufficient in food for over 60 million people.

As other posters have suggested, there is clearly an optimum level of self sufficiency, at least in some goods, which is desirable before you get to isolation. Many western countries achieve some element of this, albeit with more land and resources. I tend to think that we haven't got this balance right, compared to some of our partner countries.

I don't think that there is much possibility for a capitalist state, (and particularly the UK) to become self sufficient in consumer commodities when you have 'champions of industry' like Sir James Dyson who at every opportunity gets labour from wherever it is cheapest, - specifically the far east so far.

For us, we do have a lot of potential in terms of renewable energy, so one aspect we could look at could be to exploit the wind and tides more, to cut down on fuel imports.

Apart from the army of NIMBYs that think their home being their castle entitles them to block anything that overrides provisioning for the greater population's good.

In terms of managing the population, perhaps it is a cultural shift we need. We could do more to teach people from an early age that procreation isn't the be all and end all. I note that some western countries are already managing with declining populations, so there will have to be a way to work with it.

In terms of the EU, we may well have prevented the next unanimous vote towards political integration. However, the fact that such votes tend to be unanimous without us should tell us something about the direction of travel. There would only be so long we could hold up everyone else - although I was willing to give the two speed Europe negotiated by Cameron a try.

Unfortunately, less than 2% more of the electorate that voted decided to jump into the abyss because the believed what they were told at the referendum.

 

[Cowley]

That's all going to break when the electricity gets held up for 3 hours in customs. They'll probably have to turn the M20 into a giant battery just to cope.

Well it made me laugh takno.

 

[HSTEd]

It's not efficient for each European country to have its own independent electricity supply. A large proportion of the population of our continent lives in an area roughly bounded by Preston, Berlin, Rome, Paris and Cardiff. A large proportion of that lives in the so-called "Blue Banana".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana

The most obvious sources of renewable electricity are in thinly populated countries such as Iceland and Norway, which are outside that area. They've got so much electricity that they don't know what to do with it. So it makes sense to build cables from those places to where the people live, and that is what is happening.

Thus giving the central authority (Brussels) a weapon to use against dissenting local forces, like the UK.
We disobey and Brussels turns the power off in midwinter - and we all freeze.
Forgive me if I don't find the idea appealing

 

[najaB]

Thus giving the central authority (Brussels) a weapon to use against dissenting local forces, like the UK.
We disobey and Brussels turns the power off in midwinter - and we all freeze.
Forgive me if I don't find the idea appealing

I missed where the EC/EU wrested control of the grid from national operators, and generation from the (quazi-)private sector operators.

 

[yorksrob]

OK, my typo, I hadn't noticed that I had left the word 'density' out so it should read "Our population density isn't unusually high".

Not a problem

I don't think that there is much possibility for a capitalist state, (and particularly the UK) to become self sufficient in consumer commodities when you have 'champions of industry' like Sir James Dyson who at every opportunity gets labour from wherever it is cheapest, - specifically the far east so far.

I think its a question of degrees. I myself would be content to see a greater proportion of the companies that we use based in the UK in terms of ownership and manufacture. I agree that it wouldn't be possible to be completely self-sufficient in this regard, but I believe that we have allowed too many of our small and medium sized companies to be subsumed into multi-nationals. This is something that our European neighbours would never tolerate, yet we seem to treat everything as fodder for the City of London to sell off.

Apart from the army of NIMBYs that think their home being their castle entitles them to block anything that overrides provisioning for the greater population's good.

That's inevitable, but we seem to have built up a level of wind generation capability already in spite of them.

Unfortunately, less than 2% more of the electorate that voted decided to jump into the abyss because the believed what they were told at the referendum.

The fact that 52% of the voting electorate voted to leave should at least tell us that this country is not committed to the political project.

As far as the EU is concerned, this shouldn't be an issue - there have always been countries in Europe who have no intention of joining the organisation. If the core values of the EU are concerned with spreading peace and understanding across the continent, it should have a way of working with those countries which is more than just throwing its weight around.

 

[HSTEd]

I missed where the EC/EU wrested control of the grid from national operators, and generation from the (quazi-)private sector operators.

They could use their established trade policy powers to embargo the sale of electricity to the UK.....

 

[Cantab26]

That's all going to break when the electricity gets held up for 3 hours in customs. They'll probably have to turn the M20 into a giant battery just to cope.

Or turn the highway network into a large system of dodgem tracks and there you have it: customs and carbon emissions both sorted!

I'll send you my bill. Payment accepted by cheque or BACS.

 

[Groningen]

Things that can not grow in the UK. Oranges, pineapples, mango and that kind of stuff. If you want to grow it in the UK (and northern Europe) you need your own heatsource instead of the sun.

 

[HSTEd]

Things that can not grow in the UK. Oranges, pineapples, mango and that kind of stuff. If you want to grow it in the UK (and northern Europe) you need your own heatsource instead of the sun.

You can get conditions warm enough for growing most of those fruits using the seawater dumped into the sea from any one of our nuclear power stations! Certainly enough to stop greenhouses getting cold enough to hurt them during the winter.

And water at 80C can be produced at a cost in electricity production of about 100kWe per megawatt thermal.

Heating would not be an issue.

Indeed I believe a facility in Switzerland grows tropical fruit in a greenhouse warmed by water pumped out of the Lötschberg Base Tunnel.

 

[backontrack]

Uranium could be obtained from seawater or the marginally economic resources in the Orkneys and reactors could be built that would require negligible resources from outside the UK - stainless steel cladding and prestressed concrete or cast iron pressure vessels - like AGR sucxesors.

Just Orkney mate, it's already a plural

What do you mean by marginally economic resources?

 

[HSTEd]

There were resources found in the eighties on the Orkney mainland but development was stymied by local opposition and by low uranium prices.

Neither are a showstopper in this scenario

 

[backontrack]

There were resources found in the eighties on the Orkney mainland but development was stymied by local opposition and by low uranium prices.

Neither are a showstopper in this scenario

Oh yeah, I heard about that. I think it's best if we leave Orkney alone