Trivia: Good Designs

[mickulty]

The 139s may be cramped and rickety, but is there perhaps an argument for them also being an excellent design for their application? Nippy enough for such a short journey, apparently much more efficient than any other option, and IIRC they have step-free wheelchair access.

 

[randyrippley]

Also, no one'a said the Pendolino? It's crap due to some internal bits and bobs, but you must admit, it look pretty good. Perhaps I just mean the virgin livery in general.

The Pendolino is crap because its a nausea inducing claustrophobic hot sweaty vomit comet with restricted views, restricted head space and limited freedom of movement once seated. The seats are literally a PITA (and in the back). They're not big enough, the onboard catering is a joke and the toilets stink.
Who cares what it looks like? Nothing but lipstick on a pig.

 

[fredk]

Don't hope that Siemens is allowed to change the design. Their version looked terrible. Embarrassing.

I reckon the faults on the 700s are just teething issues that most modern units tend to have when first let loose. If not the DFT and SWT have wasted millions collectively. As well as lots of time. But that's unlikely.

The Siemens mockup from a few years ago will not be produced even if they get the contract for the new deep level tube. They will be producing something very similar to the one shown in the 3D video mockup produced by TfL recently. I have to agree that the Siemens 'Inspiro' tube design was hideous, an amateur attempt at creating something 'futuristic' but failing completely. Whatever happens, at least we won't be getting that

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have to agree that the Siemens 'Inspiro' tube design was hideous, an amateur attempt at creating something 'futuristic' but failing completely. Whatever happens, at least we won't be getting that

Ah... that... we are talking about the toilet roll on wheels aren't we...?

 

[The Box Photter]

The BR MkI carriage, on Commonwealth Bogies.

Safe up to 100mph and adaptable into both LHCS and multiple units. In particular the "Clacton" EMUs were a classic, reliable piece of kit.

The "Edmonson" ticket - cheap and infinitely adaptable.

The BR "Arrows of Indecision".

 

[Ianno87]

The Pendolino is crap because its a nausea inducing claustrophobic hot sweaty vomit comet with restricted views, restricted head space and limited freedom of movement once seated. The seats are literally a PITA (and in the back). They're not big enough, the onboard catering is a joke and the toilets stink.
Who cares what it looks like? Nothing but lipstick on a pig.

1. This is the Good Designs thread, not the Bad Designs one.

2. Balance your comment above against how well the body structure of 390033 held up in the Grayrigg derailment in 2007.

 

[The Growl]

Who cares what it looks like? Nothing but lipstick on a pig.

I never denied it had it's issues, just said it looked quite good.

 

[xc170]

The Pendolino is crap because its a nausea inducing claustrophobic hot sweaty vomit comet with restricted views, restricted head space and limited freedom of movement once seated. The seats are literally a PITA (and in the back). They're not big enough, the onboard catering is a joke and the toilets stink.
Who cares what it looks like? Nothing but lipstick on a pig.

Not big enough?

Until the 700s were introduced, how many other units can you name that are all 9/11 coaches long?

Catering is a joke?

Never had an issue with the buffet and 1st class catering myself, what more do you expect, an onboard Nandos and Costa?

 

[klewer]

Will probably see some disagreements on this, but my vote goes with the Class 320/321/322 series of EMU's.

Well-designed, reliable, spacious units that (depending on configuration) can either work on stopping services or speed down the mainline at around 100mph. Their ability to move hundreds of commuters on a daily basis is quite something.

The latest refurbishments show that (almost thirty years on) they can be effectively re-engineered into something close to modern rolling stock - there must be a good base for the engineers to work on.

Downsides? Rattling doors, seats that don't suit some people and a lack of air-con but these faults have, or are being engineered out.

 

[yorksrob]

The BR MkI carriage, on Commonwealth Bogies.

Safe up to 100mph and adaptable into both LHCS and multiple units. In particular the "Clacton" EMUs were a classic, reliable piece of kit.

The "Edmonson" ticket - cheap and infinitely adaptable.

The BR "Arrows of Indecision".

How about the good old orange magna-stripe ticket. Handy shape, easy to read (at least until they started messing around with it). Stood the railway in good stead for nearly forty years.

 

[Great_Western]

1. This is the Good Designs thread, not the Bad Designs one.

2. Balance your comment above against how well the body structure of 390033 held up in the Grayrigg derailment in 2007.

For what its worth, Pendolino's do what they were designed to do quite well, It's just a shame they were not designed to be comfortable and have a pleasant environment for passengers.

 

[AM9]

For what its worth, Pendolino's do what they were designed to do quite well, It's just a shame they were not designed to be comfortable and have a pleasant environment for passengers.

They were! It's just that some here are the 'wrong type of human being' to enjoy the comfort/pleasant environment. Don't go blaming the reduced shoulder height necessitated by the loading gauge for tilting designs. I've always found them more comfortable than most MKIIIs (LHCS and EMUs) and the toilets are certainly more reliable than those on the WCML before them.

 

[AM9]

The BR MkI carriage, on Commonwealth Bogies.

Safe up to 100mph and adaptable into both LHCS and multiple units. In particular the "Clacton" EMUs were a classic, reliable piece of kit. ...

I would agree with that of course, their 100mph performance was in part due to the special wheel profile (on the the 309s at least) that worked with the Commonwealth bogie ride characteristics to reduce hunting.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Apart from having no provision for AC and using a 2nd hand traction package the 442s were a good design for long distance electric in their day (before the buffet area was axed)

 

[Great_Western]

They were! It's just that some here are the 'wrong type of human being' to enjoy the comfort/pleasant environment. Don't go blaming the reduced shoulder height necessitated by the loading gauge for tilting designs. I've always found them more comfortable than most MKIIIs (LHCS and EMUs) and the toilets are certainly more reliable than those on the WCML before them.

Personally, I find them cramped, the seats uncomfortable and traveling on them tends to make me feel rather ill. In contrast, apart from the seats, I've found the Voyagers far more pleasant to travel up the west coast on.

 

[randyrippley]

Not big enough?

Until the 700s were introduced, how many other units can you name that are all 9/11 coaches long?

Catering is a joke?

Never had an issue with the buffet and 1st class catering myself, what more do you expect, an onboard Nandos and Costa?

Forget multiple units. How long were the trains on the WCML before the Pendolinos appeared? 12+ Mk2/3 coaches in the main with rather a lot more seats.
As for catering...............anyone could get a meal in the days before the Pendolinos, not just the upper echelons of first class, while the buffet usually had something edible available: not the plastic nu-food sarnies and microwave burgers currently sold.

 

[randyrippley]

1. This is the Good Designs thread, not the Bad Designs one.

2. Balance your comment above against how well the body structure of 390033 held up in the Grayrigg derailment in 2007.

1) I was replying to a post which seemed to claim the Pendolino was a "good" design and was explaining why that view is wrong

2) A Mk3 set would probably have survived Greyrigg equally well if not better. But crash survivability does not define a "good" train design. To use aircraft as a comparison, the chances of a C-130 Hercules surviving a forced landing are much higher than that of a Airbus, but that doesn't make the HerkyBird a good passenger aircraft design.........

 

[43096]

For what its worth, Pendolino's do what they were designed to do quite well, It's just a shame they were not designed to be comfortable and have a pleasant environment for passengers.

So they were designed to carry passengers uncomfortably, with stinking toilets in a rattling tin can, were they?

 

[Great_Western]

So they were designed to carry passengers uncomfortably, with stinking toilets in a rattling tin can, were they?

No, But it certainly feels like passenger environment was an afterthought

 

[moogal]

Forget multiple units. How long were the trains on the WCML before the Pendolinos appeared? 12+ Mk2/3 coaches in the main with rather a lot more seats.

In my experience, Loco + 7 or 8 mk2 or mk3 + DVT.
So 11 cars definitely an improvement there.

 

[sprinterguy]

Forget multiple units. How long were the trains on the WCML before the Pendolinos appeared? 12+ Mk2/3 coaches in the main with rather a lot more seats.

You recall incorrectly, then; as moogal notes above, the mark 3 rakes were typically 8 carriages in length, sometimes 7 and occasionally 9, while the mark 2 rakes were normally 9/10 carriages with shorter vehicles.

You do have a point in that a traditional West Coast loco-hauled formation did have catering available to all and considerably more luggage space in a comparable overall train length, though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) A Mk3 set would probably have survived Greyrigg equally well if not better.........

I seriously doubt that. While it is difficult to make direct comparisons between separate incidents, the high speed derailment of HST stock against facing points at Ufton Nervet in 2006 resulted in the death of six people on board the train, rather than one with 390033 at Grayrigg.

 

[43096]

I seriously doubt that. While it is difficult to make direct comparisons between separate incidents, the high speed derailment of HST stock against facing points at Ufton Nervet in 2006 resulted in the death of six people on board the train, rather than one with 390033 at Grayrigg.

You cannot make that comparison and there are plenty of other accidents we can randomly use e.g.
- Colwich. Mixed formations of Mark 2/3 stock (and Mark 1 catering car) in near head-on crash at around 100mph. No passengers killed.
- Bushey derailment. Similar train type derailed at around 95mph. No fatalities.

 

[grumblingalong]

Shout out for the Class 156. Solid, basic, comfortable units that go about their business generally without complaint.

 

[Southsider]

Shout out for the Class 156. Solid, basic, comfortable units that go about their business generally without complaint.

Perhaps a good design when used in the correct circumstances. Lots of complaints about their dwell times on the Glasgow suburban network.

 

[Firesprite]

The 4TC 4REP combo is a classic thinking out of the box solution to the problem of keeping through services to Weymouth when electrification of the line was only done as far as Bournemonth when completed 50 years ago. The other option being using standard EMU's as far as Bournemouth and requiring everyone changing onto an DMU.

Promotional film for the newly electrified Bournemouth line in 1967. Note the standard of service in the buffet car compared with todays poor Stagecoach offering and the trains were faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUT7TUAKegk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps a good design when used in the correct circumstances. Lots of complaints about their dwell times on the Glasgow suburban network.

Agreed, suburban duties are what Class 150s are for. But otherwise a worthy successor to the venerable MetCamm class 101, and similarly likely to keep soldiering on for 50 years or so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 4TC 4REP combo is a classic thinking out of the box solution to the problem of keeping through services to Weymouth when electrification of the line was only done as far as Bournemonth when completed 50 years ago. The other option being using standard EMU's as far as Bournemouth and requiring everyone changing onto an DMU.

Agreed. I guess bi-modes have now supplanted this kind of thing but I never quite got why nobody has in recent years come up with the idea of an EMU hauled by a perfectly compatible, autocoupler fitted loco when off the wires. The 57s sort of did it with the Pendolino, but weren't in the event reliable enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[yorksrob]

You recall incorrectly, then; as moogal notes above, the mark 3 rakes were typically 8 carriages in length, sometimes 7 and occasionally 9, while the mark 2 rakes were normally 9/10 carriages with shorter vehicles.

You do have a point in that a traditional West Coast loco-hauled formation did have catering available to all and considerably more luggage space in a comparable overall train length, though.
.

Were the WCML mk3 rakes really only 8 carriages long ! I seem to recall having to walk past four first class ones at Euston to get to steerage anyway.

 

[sprinterguy]

You cannot make that comparison and there are plenty of other accidents we can randomly use e.g.
- Colwich. Mixed formations of Mark 2/3 stock (and Mark 1 catering car) in near head-on crash at around 100mph. No passengers killed.
- Bushey derailment. Similar train type derailed at around 95mph. No fatalities.

Fair point. I suppose we can only conclude that the mark 3 is a pretty safe vehicle after all - their structural integrity has been praised in more than one of the accidents they've been involved in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Were the WCML mk3 rakes really only 8 carriages long ! I seem to recall having to walk past four first class ones at Euston to get to steerage anyway.

Yes. This photo of Matt Taylor's shows a typical West Coast formation in the latter days of Intercity, with two FOs, a RFM and five TSOs.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=556&pid=4895#top_display_media

Some mark 3 formations might have had three FOs for targeted business trains, the same as the mark 4 'Pullman' formations on the ECML, but the only trains likely to have four First Opens, after BR withdrew the dedicated 'Manchester Pullman' workings, were the mark 2 rakes.

A post from Helvellyn on an old thread does describe some longer formations that did operate in Intercity days, though:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69019&page=2
In the early 1990s, when push-pull formations were being introduced, some of the EBW (Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton) sets were 13 coaches:

DVT-FO-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

This was also when there were "Super Pullman" 12 coach sets on some of the Euston-Manchester sets, all formed of Mk 3 vehicles: -

DVT-BFO-RFM-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

Virgin moved more to upping frequencies and having more standardised set formations, hence the move to a lot of sets being formed: -

DVT-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (or only 2 FOs)

There were reportedly four such "Super Pullman" sets on the West Coast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shout out for the Class 156. Solid, basic, comfortable units that go about their business generally without complaint.

Yes, I'd be inclined to agree with that, for exactly the reasons that you outline. Ideal basic, dependable units for the regional and long distance rural services they were designed for.

 

[sk688]

Id like to add the 350s in general

Although they have slow doors , and the 1s really need a refurb, they are still in Silverlink Colours inside ! , they are fast , comfortable , quiet trains , that are far better than the rubbish 321's , and the unreliable 319s ( the LM 350s never seem to break down )

Also noticed that they are far less bouncy than a 377 on the WCML , and far less bouncy than the 387s I have used

Actually add all first gen Siemens EMU's to that , the 444s are comfortable , sleek and fast , and the 450s move people around well . They just seem to be a higher quality unit than the Bombardier offerings ( although the Electrostar traction motor is better than Siemens , which make an irritating noise when leaving a station )

 

[Mikey C]

A sweeping generalisation. Before privatisation commuter stock was relatively basic and uncomfortable, while "Inter City" stock was much nicer, roomier, more comfy seats, air-con etc

Since the late 90s, the categories of trains have blurred with a similar standard of trains operating both routes. As a result, trains like the Electrostars, Turbostars and Desiros are far nicer than the Mk3 based EMUs and DMUs, with much better seating, aircon etc, whereas the Pendolinos and Voyagers seems inferior inside to the Mk3 IC carriages, being cramped and in the case of the former, with tiny windows.

The 350s, for example may be slower than the Pendolinos, but are in many ways much nice to travel in.

With the desperate need for extra capacity around London, it's interesting that commuter trains are now becoming less comfortable again, so that more people can be crammed on board, hence the 700s are less comfortable than the Electrostars, but nicer than the 319s...