Trivia: Good Designs

[507021]

Personally, I think the PEP units are a great design. The oldest examples have survived in service for 40 years and still going strong today, and I think all of the different PEP family classes are perfect for the routes they operate on, even the 315s on Crossrail. I think it's a shame the proposed Class 316 units weren't built, but never mind.

 

[43096]

There's a thread elsewher on this year's Golden Spanner awards ... the 444 and 159 seem to feature there.



But sticking more with good design, the 37, 47, 158/159, HST all seem to have stood the test of time well.



t.



Ian

I'm not sure how Duffs qualify as a good design, given that they were permanently de-rated early in their lives.

 

[D365]

Personally, I think the PEP units are a great design. The oldest examples have survived in service for 40 years and still going strong today, and I think all of the different PEP family classes are perfect for the routes they operate on, even the 315s on Crossrail. I think it's a shame the proposed Class 316 units weren't built, but never mind.

Despite their reportedly colourful early days. Perhaps that is why the Class 316 was avoided, although perhaps it would later on have proven itself as a useful Thameslink sub-fleet alongside the Class 319s.

I'm not sure how Duffs qualify as a good design, given that they were permanently de-rated early in their lives.

Did that cause an issue with timings then?

 

[fgwrich]

I would raise you with 2009 stock (Victoria Line). The way the designers maximise use of the internal space for maximum passenger-shifting capability really is impressive. It seldom feels like effort to squueze onto a packed train.

That and the smoothness of the ATO acceleration and deceleration.

I'm going to be slightly controversial here and say I prefer the Alstom stock to the 2009 Stock. The reason - I feel that Bombardier got lucky with it as the bodyshell is in effect, a modernized 1992 stock unit with newer traction packages. I also remember when they were first introduced - the issues with the over sensitive door system (which reportedly cost Bombardier over a 1M to fix and was featured in the BBC version of The Tube) and the heat. They're ok, and I prefer them to the S Stock. But 1995/96 stock wins it on the tube for me.

But that's not my choice. Mine isn't the most reliable (unfortunately), but for external and internal designs. Alstom's Class 180 Coradia / Adelante. I love the exterior styling, that very sleek cab which has something almost GWR Railcar about it with the central crease and the streamlined front. The rest of the body is very Metro-Cammel, almost similar to the Class 156. But it's the interior that I still feel impressed by - Large windows, seats which line up with the windows, large luggage racks enough to fit more than a copy of the Daily Mail in, Large Vestibules, 2 Decent Van spaces doubling up for additional luggage or bicycles. The whole units feel bright and airy, the soundproofing is top quality and the ride quality is super smooth. I overheard someone the other day describe them as 'feeling like a cheaper version of the Mk3' - I don't find that insulting at all, because it means that long before we were praising the Mk3, Someone in Alstom and First Group were already working on a design to match it.

Yes it's a shame that the mechanical design wasn't up to scratch, and nor were the Hydrodynamic Braking System, or Alstom's level of support up until the beginning of this decade. But I feel that the Adelante offers something compareable to a HST - And nothing else comes close to it. I really wish the same designers were working on the IEP project now, or Alstom & First Group had got their way in procuring an updated Coradia design.

In a neck and neck race between it and the HST, FGWs HST would just clinch it for it's longevity and reliability. In terms of Modern rolling stock introduced since, the 180 wins it hands down for me.

 

[kermit]

Many have mentioned the HSTs, but in terms of traction, they are really two designs both good. The literal link between them is the Mk 3 coach, which set a very high standard for comfort and safety around 40 years ago. A benchmark which sadly many of its successors have failed to reach.

 

[43096]

Did that cause an issue with timings then?

No idea, but it caused a lot of grief for BR engineers at the time.

 

[507021]

Despite their reportedly colourful early days. Perhaps that is why the Class 316 was avoided, although perhaps it would later on have proven itself as a useful Thameslink sub-fleet alongside the Class 319s

The Class 316 wasn't built (I don't think it ever got past the design stage anyway) because construction of the Picc-Vic tunnel was cancelled in 1977, meaning the plans for the network the 316s would have operated on weren't realised either. I think it's a shame it wasn't built, but at least the Ordsall Chord will achieve the aims of the Picc-Vic tunnel.

 

[D365]

The Class 316 wasn't built (I don't think it ever got past the design stage anyway) because construction of the Picc-Vic tunnel was cancelled in 1977, meaning the plans for the network the 316s would have operated on weren't realised either. I think it's a shame it wasn't built, but at least the Ordsall Chord will achieve the aims of the Picc-Vic tunnel.

Oh right, I didn't think that the Picc-Vic units were going to be a PEP derivative. I was actually on about the proposed Luton-Moorgate sub-fleet for which it was eventually decided that a single Class 317/1 fleet would suffice.

 

[AlexNL]

Eurostar, the Channel Tunnel and the CTRL. Bringing London to within two hours from Brussels is a truly remarkable achievement.

 

[TrainfanBen]

Class 230.


Somebody had to say it. I'll get my proverbial coat.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd like to add the "basic railway". DMU paytrains, simplified track, automated crossings and signalling, rationalised facilities.
Ensured that much of the railway we love survives to this day. G Fiennes most important legacy perhaps.

 

[D365]

Class 230.

Oh the horror, it could actually turn out to be a good design!?

 

[J-2739]

I've got to say, the Electrostar family. Sure, not everyone likes them, but they've been the basic staple of most London commuters services and have never really had technical problems with themselves (apart from power upgrades on the Southern network, not their faults). I'm sure their legacy will be felt by the time they've reached 40.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

But I feel that the Adelante offers something compareable to a HST - And nothing else comes close to it.

I was about to post the same thing. Terrible build, but excellent design.

 

[Great_Western]

158/159's were pretty much the pinncacle in DMU design which hasn't really been bettered since IMO. They are comfortable, nice riding, reliable (once the initial kinks were ironed out) fast enough and still look modern. Out of the post BR rolling stock, I've always thought the desiro's seem to be the ones to beat.

 

[bramling]

I'm going to be slightly controversial here and say I prefer the Alstom stock to the 2009 Stock. The reason - I feel that Bombardier got lucky with it as the bodyshell is in effect, a modernized 1992 stock unit with newer traction packages. I also remember when they were first introduced - the issues with the over sensitive door system (which reportedly cost Bombardier over a 1M to fix and was featured in the BBC version of The Tube) and the heat. They're ok, and I prefer them to the S Stock. But 1995/96 stock wins it on the tube for me.

To be fair, they're both good designs in my view -- although of course the 09 stock hasn't yet had the chance to pass the test of time, although early signs look promising.

The sensitive edge is a thorny issue. 95/96 stocks have the conventional "pushback" arrangement, whereas 09 stock doors are locked shut and thus have sensitive edge as the alternative means of mitigating against thin items being trapped. There's advantages and disadvantages of both - on the 95/96 stocks for example although they don't get sensitive edge activations, they do lose pilot light very frequently, normally because of harsh acceleration/braking, or someone leaning on a door. This tends to bite most just when it's least wanted, i.e. when there's a big gap in front, the train is crush loaded, and you don't want to be further held up!

 

[CosherB]

Class 59 / 66.

 

[Mikey C]

Echoing some of the comments here

The Networker design was a very decent one, an attempt to create a proper commuter train design, rather than the compromised Mk3 derived carriages. For a 25 year old design, they still look reasonably modern, indeed the 345s seems to have copied their door design!

The 1995 Tube Stock is another excellent design from 20 odd years ago, which has stood the test of time very well, both in terms of its interior and technologically (unlike the 1992 stock which will be replaced far sooner). It's a shame that Alstom couldn't replicate this level of quality and reliability with its other products.

Finally the Underground S stock clearly moves the game forward. You know it's a purpose designed train, whereas the Overground 378s feel a bit compromised.

 

[MrCub]

Not sure this is entirely in keeping with the spirit of the thread but I've always thought Marylebone station is a gem of a design and in general it works really well and has a nice atmosphere to it (if a little cold at times!)

 

[mike57]

HST, Mk3 carriages were a big step forward in comfort, and gave improved crash safety. The 125mph capability led to a significant improvement in journey times on the East Coast Mainline (and other routes where they were used, but ECML is where I saw the step change). They are still doing the job they were designed to do after 40 years and are still in front line service. There has been quite a bit of refurbishment but thats to be expected. I suspect a lot of younger people who are not rail enthusiasts don't realise just how old they are.

2nd on my list would be 158's, they are still better than some units that have replaced them, air con can be iffy, but in cold weather they definitely beat 185's that replaced them on transpennine services.

 

[PeterY]

It's nice to read some positives about railway designs. It's amazing how certain rolling stock and locomotives have stood the test of time and gone on well past their sell by date.

Classes 08, 20, 37 and 43's, Mk 3 coaches. 1972 Bakerloo, 1973 Piccadilly tube stock.
Even the 1938 tube stock still running in the Isle of Wight.

 

[D365]

1972 Bakerloo, 1973 Piccadilly tube stock.

In the former case at least, it's more because the Underground have had to keep them going.

 

[The Growl]

I've got to say, the Electrostar family. Sure, not everyone likes them, but they've been the basic staple of most London commuters services and have never really had technical problems with themselves (apart from power upgrades on the Southern network, not their faults). I'm sure their legacy will be felt by the time they've reached 40.

I find them boring due to there ubiquity, but yes, a great design non the less when you look at the span of time they're still being ordered.

Can I nominate the class 700? Capacity, modern, crashworthy, pretty good looking as well.

Also, no one'a said the Pendolino? It's crap due to some internal bits and bobs, but you must admit, it look pretty good. Perhaps I just mean the virgin livery in general.

 

[The Growl]

Another thing. The concept deep level tube that's meant to replace the 1973s and stuff. I think it's a fantastic design internally, and externally, except for the black band on the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure this is entirely in keeping with the spirit of the thread but I've always thought Marylebone station is a gem of a design and in general it works really well and has a nice atmosphere to it (if a little cold at times!)

I've often heard it described as "the gentleman's London terminus", and I think that does kind of hold true.

 

[Mikey C]

Not sure this is entirely in keeping with the spirit of the thread but I've always thought Marylebone station is a gem of a design and in general it works really well and has a nice atmosphere to it (if a little cold at times!)

They just need to bulldoze that office block which makes half the platforms a massive walk from the ticket barriers!

 

[The Growl]

I've often heard it described as "the gentleman's London terminus", and I think that does kind of hold true.

Perhaps due to the total refurbishment of the station by NSE back in the 90s/80s. Weren't popular before then.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The Southern 4Cep before refurbishment...

 

[J-2739]

I find them boring due to there ubiquity, but yes, a great design non the less when you look at the span of time they're still being ordered.

Can I nominate the class 700? Capacity, modern, crashworthy, pretty good looking as well.

Also, no one'a said the Pendolino? It's crap due to some internal bits and bobs, but you must admit, it look pretty good. Perhaps I just mean the virgin livery in general.

I generally agree with you on the 700s, but they seemed a bit succumbed to technical issues at first. We shall see if they can cope with the new timetables in 2018, and also the 707s and the 717s.

I also like the Virgin livery (unlike most on this forum). The 390s have always been unique in not having issues with themselves unlike the other Alstom products. They're quite good, just not good enough.

Another thing. The concept deep level tube that's meant to replace the 1973s and stuff. I think it's a fantastic design internally, and externally, except for the black band on the doors.

They look really great, and I hope either Hitach-Bombardier or Siemens will build them!

 

[The Growl]

I
The new tubes look really great, and I hope either Hitach-Bombardier or Siemens will build them!

Don't hope that Siemens is allowed to change the design. Their version looked terrible. Embarrassing.

I reckon the faults on the 700s are just teething issues that most modern units tend to have when first let loose. If not the DFT and SWT have wasted millions collectively. As well as lots of time. But that's unlikely.